Redesigning Reveal Nilfgaard

[DannyGuy]

Redesigning Reveal Nilfgaard

I really liked the initial concept of reveal - that it focused more on interacting with your opponent's hand rather than the board. Right now, reveal is just a huge tempo swing, and the utility of reveal is largely ignored, which is sad. Also, mirror matches are awkward as fuck.
I took the time to redesign most of the NG reveal cards. I doubt reveal will ever change, but I'd like to hear your guys' feedback.

First thing I'd like to note is that I've completely removed self-revealing and concealing. Both of these mechanics are super clunky in mirror matches.

Morvran Voorhis
7 Strength. reveal up to 4 cards.
New: 7 Strength. Reveal up to 3 cards, then spawn a base copy of a revealed enemy card.

Spoiler: Golds

Leo Bonhart
7 Strength. Reveal one of your units and deal damage equal to its base power to an enemy.
6 Strength. Deal 6 damage to an enemy. If your opponent is holding a revealed silver or gold card, deal 12 damage instead.

Tibor Eggebracht
10 Strength. Truce: Boost self by 15, then your opponent draws a bronze card and reveals it.
10 Strength. Truce: Boost self by 20, then your opponent draws a bronze card and reveals it.
Boost increased from 15 to 20.

Vattier de Rideaux
11 Strength. Reveal up to 2 of your cards, then reveal the same amount of your opponent's cards, randomly.
14 Strength. Swap a Revealed enemy card.

Xarthisius
13 Strength. Look at your opponent's deck and move a card to the bottom.
11 Strength. Look at your opponent's hand and deck. Choose up to 2 cards. If they are in your opponent's hand, reveal them. If they are in your opponent's deck, move them to the bottom.
If you'd choose a bronze card, all copies of it would be revealed/moved to the bottom of the deck.

Spoiler: Silvers

Cynthia
5 Strength. Reveal the highest unit in your opponent's hand and boost self by its power.
5 Strength. Reveal the highest unit in your opponent's hand, then boost self by the power of a revealed unit
Makes the card playable later in the round, after multiple cards have already been revealed

Serrit
6 Strength. Deal 7 damage to an enemy; or set a revealed unit's base power to 1.
9 Strength. Deal 4 damage to an enemy; or set a revealed unit's base power to 1.
Puts more focus on the reveal synergy ability rather than the secondary ability.

Hefty Helge
8 Strength. Deal 1 damage to all enemies except those on the opposite row. If this was revealed, deal 1 damage to all enemies instead.
9 Strength. Deal 4 damage to an enemy. Reveal a number of cards in your opponent's hand equal to the overkill damage.

Henry var Attre
9 Strength. Conceal any number of units. If allies, boost them by 2. If enemies, deal 2 damage to them.
10 Strength. Deal 2 damage to up to 3 revealed units in your opponent's hand.

Spoiler: Bronzes

Venendal Elite
1 Strength. Switch this unit's power with that of a revealed unit.
9 Strength. Halve the base power of a revealed enemy unit.
No longer punishes hand-buff Scoia'Tael, is a little bit safer to play even against decks with low-power units.

Imperial Golem
3 Strength. Summon a copy of this unit whenever you reveal a card in your opponent's hand.
Unchanged

Daerlan Foot Soldier
4 Strength. When you reveal this unit, play it on a random row and draw a card.
4 Strength. Summon a copy of this unit from your deck whenever your opponent plays a revealed card from their hand.

Fire Scorpion
5 Strength. Deal 5 damage. When you reveal this unit, trigger its ability.
6 Strength. Deal 3 damage. If the highest revealed card color in your opponent's hand is bronze, deal 5 damage. If Silver, deal 6 damage. If Gold, deal 8 damage.

Spotter
5 Strength. Boost self by the base power of a revealed bronze or silver unit.
5 Strength. Boost self by the base power of a revealed enemy unit.
Added the option to target golds at the cost of only being able to target enemy cards.

Mangonel
7 Strength. Deal 2 damage to an enemy. Repeat this ability whenever you reveal a card.
7 Strength. Reveal a random card in your opponent's hand. At the end of your turn, deal 2 damage to an enemy if at least one of your opponent's cards is revealed.

Alchemist
9 Strength. Reveal up to 2 cards.
10 Strength. Choose a color. Reveal a random card of that color in your opponent's hand.

Master of disguise
11 Strength. Conceal 2 cards.
8 Strength. Swap a revealed enemy card and reveal the card that replaced it.

Nilfgaardian Knight
12 Strength, 2 Armor. Reveal a random card in your hand.
12 Strength, 4 Armor. Deal 2 damage to a random unit in your hand.

 

[OG.laloquaint]

Swapping cards in your opponent's hand should be something that should never be implemented in this archetype. Specially on a bronze card. I'm sorry but I don't like most your changes. I think reveal Nilfgaard is in good spot right now. Don't see why you would want to change everything when it's working just fine. :/

I do like Venendal Elite's change though, that card is ridiculous the way it is right now.

I also agree that Conceal is an awkward mechanic overall but it's a life saver in mirror matches.

 

[jotunheim92]

Nilfgaard reveal doesn't need to change. Right now it's ok. In my opinion is enough weak

 

[DannyGuy]

I think reveal Nilfgaard is in good spot right now. Don't see why you would want to change everything when it's working just fine. :/

Because it's just a tempo deck, nothing exciting. When it was first introduced, it focused more on utility and the unique mechanic of interacting with your opponent's hand, but now it's just a tempo deck, and not even a very good one. You just don't care about the information most of the time... :/
In hindsight, swapping revealed cards might in fact be a bit too overpowered. I might come back to revise some of my ideas later on.

 

[Kinglionsfox]

I think most would agree that reveal needs polishing, especially mirror matches.

I like Leo Bonhart's current ability and I like the new ability for him equally.

Tibor Eggebracht is kinda awful because of the power creep. He does need a boost in power, but I think having so much power on one card is very dangerous. I would rather like to see him spawn tokens, distributing the power a little.

I like engines and want to see more in the game, but Vattier de Rideaux engine mechanic is too much, and having him do damage each turn, and increasing his base power. It's way too strong. I like his original ability too, kinda like Leo Bonhart's, and I like that ping damage to revealed units in opponent's hand. Make a card that does just that every turn, similar to mangonels.

I don't like either Xarthisius versions. I have no ideas how to improve the card.

Cynthia shouldn't be able to reveal a card if you can choose which one you want for boosting, like Serrit, he does not reveal.

Serrit change is meh, only point differences, which isn't the focus of this thread.

Hefty Helge is the one card that really isn't negatively affected if the opponent reveals it. I like the way it is now.

I like the Henry var Attre changes.

Venendal Elite should be silver with the current ability, It's so much better than a Spotter.

Dearlan Foot Soldier's change is great, although another muster mechanic. Then again, reveal only has one right now with Imperial Golems.

I don't like the new Fire Scorpion ability. I don't like revealing and then choosing a different card to hit.

Spotter is a bad version of Venendal Elite. I think Spotters are fine as they are.

Mangonel doesn't need to reveal cards.

Alchemist is fine how it is as well.

Master of Disguise is good, but I wouldn't have it reveal the next card that is drawn, otherwise, bump it up to a silver.

Nilfgaardian Knight is neat, but you have to be careful with doing damage to cards in the hand. What if you kill a card. Does it instantly die when you play it? Is it discarded?

 

[Hellsmoke77]

In my opinion reveal should be removed from the game. In every card game I can think of seeing your opponents hand is cheating. Starting to screw with my hand on top of that while shooting out of your own which I can do nothing about is ridiculous. Stupidest and cheapest archetype ever to be introduced to a card game.

 

[DannyGuy]

I think most would agree that reveal needs polishing, especially mirror matches.

• Cynthia shouldn't be able to reveal a card if you can choose which one you want for boosting, like Serrit, he does not reveal.
• Serrit change is meh, only point differences, which isn't the focus of this thread.
• Hefty Helge is the one card that really isn't negatively affected if the opponent reveals it. I like the way it is now.
• Venendal Elite should be silver with the current ability, It's so much better than a Spotter.
• Dearlan Foot Soldier's change is great, although another muster mechanic. Then again, reveal only has one right now with Imperial Golems.
• I don't like the new Fire Scorpion ability. I don't like revealing and then choosing a different card to hit.
• Spotter is a bad version of Venendal Elite. I think Spotters are fine as they are.
• Mangonel doesn't need to reveal cards.
• Alchemist is fine how it is as well.
• Master of Disguise is good, but I wouldn't have it reveal the next card that is drawn, otherwise, bump it up to a silver.
• Nilfgaardian Knight is neat, but you have to be careful with doing damage to cards in the hand. What if you kill a card. Does it instantly die when you play it? Is it discarded?

Cynthia
She already boosts by the highest unit, the only way I changed her is that I made her playable even if most of your opponent's hand happens to be revealed.

Serrit
The simple point shift actually changes the card a lot, because you actually get really decent value if you target a good enough card. The card that Serrit targets usually gets mulliganned anyway, so this'd help him out a lot.

Hefty Helge
As I mentioned in my post, one of my goals was to remove self-revealing, as it's clunky in mirror matchups.

Venendal Elite
I assume you're talking about the current "swap" ability. Other than that, my suggestion is literally a worse Serrit.

Fire Scorpion
After a bit of thought, I have a better suggestion: 6 Strength. Deal 3 damage. If the highest revealed card color in your opponent's hand is bronze, deal 5 damage. If Silver, deal 6 damage. If Gold, deal 8 damage.
This removes the clunky reveal and makes the card easier to handle because you're only targeting one card.

Spotter
Again, a big part of my suggestion is to remove self-revealing. Also, if it's a bad version of Venendal Elite, why is allowing it to target golds a bad thing?

Mangonel
The point is that Mangonel enables itself, meaning that another Mangonel can enable the first one. Also, this means that the card could work even in Arena, if your opponent doesn't want to play the card that was just revealed.

Alchemist
The updated version is meant to synergize with the updated Fire Scorpions by allowing you to specifically reveal golds.

Master of disguise
Actually, in hindsight, the ability to swap revealed cards probably isn't good for the game. Maybe it'd work on a gold or a silver (so that you could only use it once).

Nilfgaardian Knight
Works the same as Henry Var Attre currently does. Units in hand cannot go below 1 strength.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

Reworking Reveal

Reveal has definetly a great thematic. Getting intelligence about your opponent and and using it to your own advantage.
But in reality all that reveal does with this intelligence is basically nothing, except generating points, which is truly a shame.

A much more interesting way would be to give reveal tools to adapt to the situation of the game, depending what they see about the opponents hand.
This could include too kind of reaction cards: long term reaction cards and short term cards.

The short term cards could be similar to the old Morenn and the gold Morenn, by partially negating the next effect the enemy plays. An example would be a 8 strength card that deals 3 damage to the next enemy card before deploy, thus denying any low value cards. As this card isn't an ambush the opponent sees it, too and has to adapt his strategy and play a card that he didn't intend to play now.

For long term effects I think of cards that have a choice and each choice partially counters a specific tactic. Therefore, the reveal player has to early find out, what the enemy is planning and then can disrupt it a lot. If reveals themselves would have less direct value, this would lead to the decision, how many turns to invest to reveal most of the enemies hand first and when to start the counter measures.


What would you think about such a rework for the archtype?

 

[Khreygond]

I know that currently it doesn't work

Seriously, the main problem of power reveal (focusing on revealing your cards like Hefty Helge, Fire Scorpion and Daerlan) is the complexity and dependence on the draw. Since the hand is a very intricate part of the board (and smaller than the deck), it's far easier to set up your deck than it is to set up your hand (with the exact number of reveal targets, revealers and the cards you want on top of that).

The main problem of intel reveal (focusing on revealing enemy cards) is that you can't really do much about it or disrupt enemy tactics easily. you are suffering loss of tempo as well in the meantime

With reveal, you have to do a lot of guessing, calculations, and you have access to very few deck-to-board thinning tools. It is quite possibly my favorite mechanic in the game and I have about 4 different reveal decks at least, but it will never be viable if all it gets is buffs to its values.

So I guess in the end it HAS to be reworked. To what? I don't know. But your idea seems like a good place to start. Plus it will make intel reveal (as I call it. Meaning the habit of revealing enemy cards) be important again. We could even have whole different strategies just like there are different units synergizing with Full Moon and Blood Moon, you could include Power Reveal units (Daerlan, Fire Scorpions, Henry Var Attre and focus on revealing your own cards) or build an Intel Reveal deck (having cards like what you mentioned, cards that target other cards in the hand and gain a different effect for them, etc)

For example:

Renuald Aep Matsen (the name is only because I am dying to see him make an appearance )
Choose a Revealed opposing unit. If it's a Soldier, do this, if it's a Machine, do that, if it's an Agent, do the other, etc etc.

Now as to the actual effects, they are a bit more complicated. But the good news is you won't even have to rework it, adding those cards could open up a whole new level of interaction and deck building, while also leaving the original reveal cards (for those who want to keep playing it) intact.

 

[Bleach25]

Your idea isn't bad, but it seems rather complicated to implement, as It would require important structural changes to the archetype, not counting multiple ability bronzes. Honestly I believe that they need to focus mainly on uhm "Power" Reveal so to speak, as "Intel" would be far too hard and unreliable to play even if modifica as you Wish.

 

[Hellsmoke77]

I think knowing every card your opposition has is broken enough. If you want more interaction with said hand on top of that we need to limit the amount of cards that can be revealed. Who wants to play against someone that knows all their cards and can work on them before they hit the board? NG is already bad enough in that sense to where I hate playing against them, it's just no fun at all and that has nothing to do with the skill of the NG player.

 

[TrompeLaMort]

Please, no. Reveal is fine; reveal is fun; reveal is a very cool mechanic and a very cool deck. It might not be tier 1 right now, but it is certainly viable.

Let's start making new mechanics and decks instead of messing with stuff people like.

Having new ways to interact with the opponent's hand I think is cool, but they need to be careful with that. We already have stuff like Venedal Elite, which is an awesome design. Maybe they could do more stuff like that, even play with stuff like "Shuffle a revealed card from opponents hand in his deck, and he draws a card". But reveal doesn't need a rework.

 

[4RM3D]

FG15-ISH7EG

thread merged

 

[partci]

Someone said this before: if Reveal becomes a bit too strong - it will be one of the most oppressive and frustrating decks in Gwent to play against.

Does it needs some tweaks? For sure. But making it too strong with the intelligence it can give is scary.

 

[Khreygond]

well yeah, obviously. Give it tools, don't go crazy. That has always been the challenge devs face in competitive online games.

Please, no. Reveal is fine; reveal is fun; reveal is a very cool mechanic and a very cool deck. It might not be tier 1 right now, but it is certainly viable.

Funny, I am still looking for a viable Reveal deck. Do you have a list?

 

[TrompeLaMort]

Someone said this before: if Reveal becomes a bit too strong - it will be one of the most oppressive and frustrating decks in Gwent to play against.

Does it needs some tweaks? For sure. But making it too strong with the intelligence it can give is scary.

That is a great point. Reveal will always be a deck that is exponentially more powerful when piloted by a good player than a bad player, because a large part of the advantage it gives is "immaterial" (that is, not points). I don't call myself a great player, but I won many games simply because knowing the cards in my opponents hand let me play around his strategy: not casting any spell since I saw an Aglais in his hand, playing around a scorch, Igni, etc. (That is what makes it fun to play, by the way.)

 

[1990BW]

I think knowing every card your opposition has is broken enough. If you want more interaction with said hand on top of that we need to limit the amount of cards that can be revealed. Who wants to play against someone that knows all their cards and can work on them before they hit the board? NG is already bad enough in that sense to where I hate playing against them, it's just no fun at all and that has nothing to do with the skill of the NG player.

Someone said this before: if Reveal becomes a bit too strong - it will be one of the most oppressive and frustrating decks in Gwent to play against.

Does it needs some tweaks? For sure. But making it too strong with the intelligence it can give is scary.

I don't agree with these comments.
Yes you can look in your opponents cards but you risk wasting your abilities on fire scorpions, daerlan soldiers and others.
Besides with all the point bashing and web-decks this won't give you any advantage at the moment.
In the current meta the deck can start very good IF a mangonel survives.
If you lose 2 or 3 mangonels in the first round (by removal) already it will criple the entire game.
Also note that reveal weakens towards the end of the game because of low power units and fewer cards in both hands to reveal.
Tibor Eggebracht was once a good finisher but with all the scorch, handbuff, graveyard buff and tons of removal cards it has become a bad option.


About the suggestions:

Leo Bonhart
Deal 6 damage to an enemy. If your opponent is holding a revealed silver or gold card, deal 12 damage instead.

Leo is fine as he is right now.

Tibor Eggebracht
10 Strength. Truce: Boost self by 20, then your opponent draws a bronze card and reveals it.
Boost increased from 15 to 20.

This can be an option.

Vattier de Rideaux
14 Strength. Swap a Revealed enemy card.

No this will damage the game to much.

Xarthisius
11 Strength. Look at your opponent's hand and deck. Choose up to 2 cards. If they are in your opponent's hand, reveal them. If they are in your opponent's deck, move them to the bottom.
If you'd choose a bronze card, all copies of it would be revealed/moved to the bottom of the deck.

To many effects for one card.
It's a quite okay card as it is now you can sneak in your opponents deck, know what to expect and you put a good card out of reach.

5 Strength. Reveal the highest unit in your opponent's hand, then boost self by the power of a revealed unit
Makes the card playable later in the round, after multiple cards have already been revealed

So basically make her a spotter? I think she's fine as she is.
A good silver to open the match with.

Serrit
9 Strength. Deal 4 damage to an enemy; or set a revealed unit's base power to 1.
Puts more focus on the reveal synergy ability rather than the secondary ability.

Serrit definitely needs to change because of the Venendal Elite.
Your suggestion could work but it won't be unique.

Hefty Helge
9 Strength. Deal 4 damage to an enemy. Reveal a number of cards in your opponent's hand equal to the overkill damage.

A complicated mechanic, a buff on this card with it's current ability would do the trick.
For instance let it apply it's deploy ability when revealed.
This will cause synergy with master of disguise and fire scorpions.

Henry var Attre
10 Strength. Deal 2 damage to up to 3 revealed units in your opponent's hand.

I think he's fine as he is right now.
Like I mentioned before wasting useless reveals will weaken your game.
It often will target no more than 3-5 cards.

Venendal Elite

9 Strength. Halve the base power of a revealed enemy unit.
No longer punishes hand-buff Scoia'Tael, is a little bit safer to play even against decks with low-power units.

This card isn't popular but it can be good at times.
This card shouldn't target Cantarella thats just not fair.
My own suggestion in my thread for the Venandal is a mix between the spotter.
If targeted on an ally boost by it's power; if targeted on a enemy switch the power of this unit.

Daerlan Foot Soldier
4 Strength. Summon a copy of this unit from your deck whenever your opponent plays a revealed card from their hand.

Don't change this one it's fine as it is.
Good for deck thinning.

Fire Scorpion
6 Strength. Deal 3 damage. If the highest revealed card color in your opponent's hand is bronze, deal 5 damage. If Silver, deal 6 damage. If Gold, deal 8 damage.

This is way to complicated.

Spotter
5 Strength. Boost self by the base power of a revealed enemy unit.
Added the option to target golds at the cost of only being able to target enemy cards.

This will make the spotter very unreliable or in some cases a bad play.

Mangonel
7 Strength. Reveal a random card in your opponent's hand. At the end of your turn, deal 2 damage to an enemy if at least one of your opponent's cards is revealed.

I wouldn't change the mangonel.

Alchemist
10 Strength. Choose a color. Reveal a random card of that color in your opponent's hand.

Revealing just one card would make this deck too slow.

Master of disguise
8 Strength. Swap a revealed enemy card and reveal the card that replaced it.

It's a slightly weaker version of your Vattier suggestion.
I don't think this mechanic will be appreciated.
Master of disguise currently only works well with firescorpions.
What it needs is more synergy with other bronzes/silvers/golds.

Nilfgaardian Knight
12 Strength, 4 Armor. Deal 2 damage to a random unit in your hand.

This doesn't make sense, why would a knight attack their allies?
The ability it has now is already a trade-off (reveal an ally) because your opponent gets an insight in your strategy.



Overall and in truth I think you're in the wrong direction for reveal.
The core mechanics are fine, unique and fun to play with.
It needs a few buffs, some more options and more synergy.

 

[Hellsmoke77]

1990BW

If you reveal a win condition it's a pretty big deal because it changed how you play. Knowing all of your opponents cards is a win condition in and of itself. It tells you when you can safely pass, it tells you if your opponent has that weather clear, it tells you to keep removal for that succubis, it tells you exactly what your opponents strategy is, it tells you everything giving you a HUGE advantage. What you choose to do with that advantage is up to you. Reveal gives you that 1 point silver spy which nobody else has access to.

Not going to get into another Nilfgaard argument but I will stick to my opinion being that knowing every card in your opponents hand is the stupidest mechanic ever to be introduced to a card game, the last thing Nilfgaard needs are any buffs what so ever. It may be fun to play but it's not fun at all to play against. This faction is the main reason I can't force myself to play more than a few hours a week. That says a lot because I'm actually a huge fan of The Witcher and Gwent. If it weren't for some major game breaking issues (Nilfgaard being one of them) I'd be playing this game non stop.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

I think reveal is poorly made and they those decks generally suck.

 

[partci]

I don't agree with these comments.
Yes you can look in your opponents cards but you risk wasting your abilities on fire scorpions, daerlan soldiers and others...

You may not agree, but there is at least one viable Reveal deck out there for some time now and if it becomes even a bit stronger - it will be oppressive as HELL. And if you had played Gwent for a while, you'll know that everybody and their mother will jump to play this exact same deck ASAP. Actually, this ALWAYS happens when new cards with Reveal Mechanic are introduced. And I mean ALWAYS.