Religion in "The Witcher"

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Religion in "The Witcher"

Just a thought here... While the creators of "The Witcher" managed to treat many serious themes (e.g. racism, terrorism) as seriously as they deserve to be treated, I feel that religion is just a bundle of hollywood-ish cliches we've seen in just about every movie and videogame (and most books) touching the subject. We have it all in there: a fanatical rural preacher who sees execution by burning as a remedy for all problems, a witch who is innocent by virtue of being declared a heretic(*), backwards villagers who worship a different race as gods only because they look and behave differently... I half expected to come upon a temple wherein I would be healed and otherwise buffed up for a small fee.I seriously consider "The Witcher" a great game, especially with regards to its serious treatment of many social problems, and I am quite disappointed at the way religion has been treated in here. Any of you feeling the same? Or maybe wanting to hit me with a large mallet, because you feel the exact opposite?(*) That's a wee bit OT, but I think the "conflict" in Act I is the least ambiguous one. The Reverend is made so unlikeable - and Abigail so likeable in comparison - that the "right" choice is pretty obvious, even though when you think about it, it's not THAT obvious after all...
 
Sapkowski made the same to the priests in saga and novels, so we could say it was clishe of author's anticlericalism :). Frankly, I can't remember ANY priest (except female pagan-like) in Sapkowski's books that was not a narrow minded loud screaming idiot... did I miss someone?
 
While it's true that the Reverend and the Order are portrayed badly, the priestesses of Melitele are good souls -- they're working as nurses in a plague hospital, and it doesn't get much more selfless than that!In the book, Geralt is friends with a priestess of Melitele, so having them portrayed well is true to the book.
 
I liked and felt sorry for them. From the very beginning they were my first choice to invite one to Shani's party.Bummer that I couldn't.
 
I guess I share much of the cynicism expressed towards organized religion in the game so i actually didn' t take much notice. Your point is valid even if my (limited) personal experience with organized religion has been better portrayed by the reverend in the game
 
RykNiedwiedzia said:
I seriously consider "The Witcher" a great game, especially with regards to its serious treatment of many social problems, and I am quite disappointed at the way religion has been treated in here. Any of you feeling the same? Or maybe wanting to hit me with a large mallet, because you feel the exact opposite?
How would you like it to have been?
 
RykNiedwiedzia said:
Just a thought here... While the creators of "The Witcher" managed to treat many serious themes (e.g. racism, terrorism) as seriously as they deserve to be treated, I feel that religion is just a bundle of hollywood-ish cliches we've seen in just about every movie and videogame (and most books) touching the subject. We have it all in there: a fanatical rural preacher who sees execution by burning as a remedy for all problems, a witch who is innocent by virtue of being declared a heretic(*), backwards villagers who worship a different race as gods only because they look and behave differently... I half expected to come upon a temple wherein I would be healed and otherwise buffed up for a small fee.I seriously consider "The Witcher" a great game, especially with regards to its serious treatment of many social problems, and I am quite disappointed at the way religion has been treated in here. Any of you feeling the same? Or maybe wanting to hit me with a large mallet, because you feel the exact opposite?(*) That's a wee bit OT, but I think the "conflict" in Act I is the least ambiguous one. The Reverend is made so unlikeable - and Abigail so likeable in comparison - that the "right" choice is pretty obvious, even though when you think about it, it's not THAT obvious after all...
Once again I think you have to remember this is a Polish game about a Polish world. The Eternal Fire cult seems to me to be directly a commentary on Roman Catholicism; the Melitele (fecundity/fertility goddess) cult seems a very direct antithesis - Dionysian against the Eternal Fire's Appolonian - and seems to me to be held up as a contrast against the Eternal Flame. Sapkowski seems much more in sympathy with Melitele than with the Eternal Flame. Melitele is clearly a synthetic name, but I was wondering to what extent her cult is based on historical Baltic-area fertility goddesses, perhaps Laima or Freya?The Lady of the Lake is also a figure out of real mythology. She's a significant character in the Matter of Britain, and appears in a number of other genuinely ancient story cycles (incidentally, although she has different names in different versions, her oldest name is Nimue, as at least one person here knows). She is an evolution of the Celtic and pre-celtic goddesses (e.g. Bride, Medan) who were worshipped in sacred swamps. And lake monsters, as you must know, go back to Grendel and beyond.So it's completely mistaken to see religion in The Witcher as an afterthought, or a bundle of Hollywood cliches. Obviously, in an RPG - particularly one like The Witcher with its constrained dialogue framework - there isn't a lot of room for exposition. But I think this is a well thought through and pertinent part of hte world and of the plot framework.
 
RogueRoxy said:
RogueRoxy said:
The Eternal Fire cult seems to me to be directly a commentary on Roman Catholicism... (snip)
The Knights Templar come to mind.... Maybe it's just me. *shrug*~ Roxy
I think the Order of the Flaming Rose represent the Teutonic Order, who were pretty similar to the Templars - but the Flaming Rose are not the whole of the Eternal Fire cult.
 
Okay, religion is a bit neglected in the game. But we have various other main themes… the discrimination of the humans against the non-humans, the theft of the witcher secrets, the forgery of the king seals, the vision the grandmaster and his plans… I'm sure I forgot a few. I think that's enough for a game story so far. If we had an other hot spot about religious conflicts, the gamestory could be a bit overburdened.
 
Hokay, quite a few replies here.
PetraSilie said:
I think that's enough for a game story so far. If we had an other hot spot about religious conflicts, the gamestory could be a bit overburdened.
I'm not really arguing for religion as another theme in the story, its portrayal in-game just seems really cliched to me. I only wanted it to be less "mainstream", so to speak.
PetraSilie said:
Once again I think you have to remember this is a Polish game about a Polish world.
And your point is...? Sorry, but I've lived 20 years here in Poland and can't really see how the game's portrayal of religion is "Polish" in any way. I would agree it's quite European, though.
PetraSilie said:
The Eternal Fire cult seems to me to be directly a commentary on Roman Catholicism
I understand that. Except that this is the exact same "commentary" we've seen in about ten thousand works so far, it would be good to see it treated differently than intense focusing on a particular - and usually portrayed in a caricature - period in its long history. It has been done so many times, it's just tedious. It's not that I'm bothered - when I want theological commentary, I don't seek it in videogames - I just long for any break in the monotony.
PetraSilie said:
So it's completely mistaken to see religion in The Witcher as an afterthought, or a bundle of Hollywood cliches. Obviously, in an RPG - particularly one like The Witcher with its constrained dialogue framework - there isn't a lot of room for exposition. But I think this is a well thought through and pertinent part of the world and of the plot framework.
I'm not saying it was an afterthought. There is quite a lot of it, and diverse in a way. A variety of real-world-mythology-based characters/themes you mentioned is indeed present, there is no question about that. But... They are also the same characters/themes which we've seen loads of times. I mean, Lady of the Lake? How many times has this been done? I'm not saying to take from, say, Hindu mythology, because the world in "The Witcher" is clearly European medieval-based. But... do something different, for a change. Plus, the presence of mythological, or mythology-based themes is not strictly 'religion' (I mean the absence or near-absence of any organized cult)... Pursuing this path, we'd reach a point where including a dragon in a game is a "direct reference to religion".
PetraSilie said:
Sapkowski made the same to the priests in saga and novels, so we could say it was clishe of author's anticlericalism :). Frankly, I can't remember ANY priest (except female pagan-like) in Sapkowski's books that was not a narrow minded loud screaming idiot... did I miss someone?
As far as I remember, you didn't ;)Well, just one more paragraph (and some replies to posts I didn't quote). The point I'm trying - quite ineptly, it seems - to make is that the only point in-game where religion seems to be an actual motivation for a person's actions is the hateful and immediately unlikeable Reverend. Although there are quite a few references to religion in "The Witcher", it seems somewhat detached from the gameworld - again, same as in most games. Priests seem to be the only practitioners of religion present, and laity of any social status does not even mention any of the deities except for a few slogans here or there. While I know that in polytheistic civilization religion is not as closely observed as in monotheistic ones, we can see from the works by such civilizations that it did have a significant impact on people's lives and perception of the world. That's all I'm asking for - for religion to be an integral part of the background world, not just an excuse for a religious conflict or a place to purchase healing potions.
 
Perhaps I'm on the wrong path here, but I doubt there was a specific religious theme to this game. Rather diversely, there was the reverend who didn't exactly get defined as to what religion he practised, then there were the Brick Makers who worshipped Water People, and there were the Druid and Dryad Nature worshippers. The Eternal Flamers (grin) is a given.What, really, did you want more in a video game? AFAIK, it wasn't really about any particular religion, but about the inhabitants and what made them tick.~ RoxyEDIT: And we ARE talking about a pagan theme in The Witcher.
 
I am getting my masters degree in Divinity, the professional degree to be a minister in most liberal/moderate and some conservative forms of christianity.I find that the witcher is somewhat european in it's view of religion. Religion is seen as either a crutch (the peasants) a negative source of power/control (the priests) or an earth friendly quirky alternative (meilete) and finally, a dark inspiration for wierdos (lionheaded dudes)It would be nice to see some non-type cast porttrayals of religious people. the cool wicca chick and the asshole christian priest archetypes are old.It would be nice if the priest had been a mixture of both some negative traditionalist values yet more progressive about other issues. Because that fits more of the my conservative friends who are religious they may be traditionalist and backward on some issues but they suprise you with compassion.a study of religous people in the united states showed that the those who NEVER went to church and those who went to church every week were less racist than those who went once in a while.Geralit's indiffernce to religion is fine by me. it is an attitude many people have, and portraying it fictionally works for me.on a side note, I lament that in american, "traditional religious" conservatism means that we can have sex with prostitues in the game but we can't see their breasts!!!!/ i find it hilarious that the american version does not censor the sexual choices but heaven forbid we see a boob. I downloaded the uncensored version, myself.all in all, I did not find the witcher's portrayal of religion to be anything but typical and ho-hum. not bad, not good, just average.
 
RykNiedwiedzia said:
Well, just one more paragraph (and some replies to posts I didn't quote). The point I'm trying - quite ineptly, it seems - to make is that the only point in-game where religion seems to be an actual motivation for a person's actions is the hateful and immediately unlikeable Reverend. Although there are quite a few references to religion in "The Witcher", it seems somewhat detached from the gameworld - again, same as in most games. Priests seem to be the only practitioners of religion present, and laity of any social status does not even mention any of the deities except for a few slogans here or there. While I know that in polytheistic civilization religion is not as closely observed as in monotheistic ones, we can see from the works by such civilizations that it did have a significant impact on people's lives and perception of the world. That's all I'm asking for - for religion to be an integral part of the background world, not just an excuse for a religious conflict or a place to purchase healing potions.
I still disagree with your fundamental point. Yes, the game is anti-clerical - represents a strong anti-clerical position. But that isn't a cliche, it's an honest political/religious position held by many people - including, apparently, Sapkowski. You're wrong in saying only the Reverend is motivated by religion. De Aldersberg, too, is (at least to some extent) a religious bigot; Siegfried is sincerely religious (and it's his sincere religion that makes him, in the end, a monster). On the other side of the fence, the acolytes of Melitele have some motivation for serving in a plague hospital in a war zone, and for some of them at least that motivation is explicitly religious.The game is strongly anti-Catholic and I think somewhat anti-Christian; I'm not clear whether it's consciously pro-pagan or whether it merely seems so in contrast to its anti-Catholicism.
 
SimonBrooke said:
Yes, the game is anti-clerical - represents a strong anti-clerical position. But that isn't a cliche, it's an honest political/religious position held by many people - including, apparently, Sapkowski.
And me. And this is one of the reasons why I find The Witcher a breath of fresh air -- the gods of the game look like the gods in the world around me, but instead of the Christian analogue being "of course" the one followed by all right-thinking people, the most attractive religion in the game is pagan. I live in the US, where fundamentalist Christians have a big effect on society -- to the extent of suppressing the teaching of evolution in some schools! -- and we have people here who resemble the folks in the Order of the Flaming Rose. I hate what those people have done to my country, and I'm thrilled to find a game where it's clear that much damage is being done to the state by clerics who meddle in politics.
 
... I live in the US, where fundamentalist Christians have a big effect on society --
I live here too. I see that as perfectly logical, seeing that the country and it's institutions, schools, hospitals, and various philanthropies were founded by Christians and based on Christian principles and values.
... to the extent of suppressing the teaching of evolution in some schools! --
To the contrary, for the past fifty years or more, it has been the acolytes of the "Theory of Evolution"that have suppressed the teaching of intelligent design and the data that supports it. Fraud, hoaxes, and the disregard for conflicting data, have been hallmarks of the evolutionist tradition. Yet it is they who insist that it be taught as the only option, the only paradigm for the interpretation of data.I would go so far as to suggest that they are not really scientists, as there dogmatic investment in a godless universe has led them to pervert the scientific method.
and we have people here who resemble the folks in the Order of the Flaming Rose.
Don't sell your country short! Order of the Flaming Rose types are found in all countries.
 
99% of biologists in america believe in evolution. and about 80& of them say they are christian.the catholic church sees no conflict with evolution and Jesus. neither does the episcopal, lutheran (ELCA), methodist, and many others. intelligent design is a crock, unless you mean that their was an intelligent designer. most modern theologians see evolution as part of the process of god creative reconciling of the world to godself. for many of us moderate and progressive christians, God used or created the process of evolution. Did god guide it? tinker? it could happen.
 
MPetros said:
I live here too. I see that as perfectly logical, seeing that the country and it's institutions, schools, hospitals, and various philanthropies were founded by Christians and based on Christian principles and values.
I'm pretty sure most of our institutions, schools, and hospitals were founded by my tax dollars.Anyway, to the original post, there were a variety of different religious NPCs in the game. Siegfried, for instance, was very religious and yet honorable at the same time. A prevailing them throughout the game was intolerance. Generally it was humans versus the other races, but I think one religion versus another (or the nonreligious) fits in.
 
IFRITdadam said:
. Frankly, I can't remember ANY priest (except female pagan-like) in Sapkowski's books that was not a narrow minded loud screaming idiot... did I miss someone?
Krepp from the "Last Wish"as for the beliefs in witcher game world - there is a classical dualism. lunar cult (melitele) vs solar (burning rose), + vaguely depicted dark side (lionhead spider cult). no other real "gods" are present here.however - the eternal fire is too impersonal to truly fit the human needs. in all the world panthenons - gods are always somehow close to the man. they exist in the nearby,or have humane faults int their personality or body - theiy are greedy,vain,horny,blind,etc..eternal fire is an impersonal force, and seems more powerful...and remote. it`s truly not a belief to fit a common folk. it`s like designed to be worshipped fanatically or not at all. in the books - AS writes rather vaguely about beliefs. mostly comtempts ambitious and stupid people, who use religion for their own practical purposes,like power, wealth, respect...
 
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