Skill Checks Increase/Scale with Level? (2.0)

[RoSuPaH]

Yeah, CDPR has to remove this fast. It completely ruins the game IMO. There are missions you literally cannot complete now because of this.

As a player, the game now punishes you for leveling.

And the fact they haven't mentioned this in any of the promo streams, videos or messages just shows that they intentionally didn't want people to know about level scaling pre-release, cause they knew its going to be controversial with many players.

Actually this simply isn't true. I've completed a fuck ton of missions including the brendan one around lvl 30 and had no issues. sure you won't be able to complete those missions the way you'd like to but that's the point? they want you to try different builds not meet every requirement. You saying you can't complete certain missions because of this is a straight up lie otherwise I wouldn't be as far as I am with 3 int and 3 cool. This game would be even worse if you could upgrade every aspect of your character. you might as well go bug your game to become indestructible, scale back everything and punch smasher to death with your ganic hands.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Right, but the question is whether or not the checks are hidden below a certain point. Makes @Crimsomrider's strategy of hoarding attribute points to spend later somewhat problematic. Plus, what other checks are hidden now?

If some checks are hidden, it's even more difficult to believe it was really intended... Everything about skill checks must be some kind of bug!

 

[koalahugs]

Actually this simply isn't true. I've completed a fuck ton of missions including the brendan one around lvl 30 and had no issues. sure you won't be able to complete those missions the way you'd like to but that's the point? they want you to try different builds not meet every requirement. You saying you can't complete certain missions because of this is a straight up lie otherwise I wouldn't be as far as I am with 3 int and 3 cool. This game would be even worse if you could upgrade every aspect of your character. you might as well go bug your game to become indestructible, scale back everything and punch smasher to death with your ganic hands.

I think a huge part of the problem is that a lot of the skill checks make no sense.

I understand needing a COOL check to say certain things to Evelyn; because she's an extremely canny individual with a silver tongue. I needed 5 COOL to say a specific thing to her - saying it makes it feel like V can conversationally keep with up with her. That's great. But why on Earth did I need 11 COOL to say a sarcastic line to the COP at the end of "Happy Together"? That cop has the social intelligence of a plank of wood. He's utterly clueless, but apparently has a much higher check than Evelyn?? Make it make sense.

Also, I thought the point was supposed to be that you had options and fluidity on how to approach things? Whether it's a dialogue with someone or a mission. Now you're basically railroaded very early on.

It's sort of like forcing students to choose what subjects they should pick when they're still in Primary School, well before they've even reached University.

Post automatically merged: Oct 2, 2023

If some checks are hidden, it's even more difficult to believe it was really intended... Everything about skill checks must be some kind of bug!

Personally I'm wondering if they maybe just didn't fully think it through? >.<

 

[Didacgomez]

Also, I thought the point was supposed to be that you had options and fluidity on how to approach things? Whether it's a dialogue with someone or a mission. Now you're basically railroaded very early on.

But this is what myself and other people have been saying since 2.0 release, they want you to play an archetype.
So a low Int brawler would not be able to do other things than "Hulk smashes"-dramatization , i know-.

Hidding skill checks if you don't meet a requirement or are very far from that is actually a good mechanic, I choose that in games that offered it (Outer Worlds,Tyranny,Pillars of Eternity). Problem is,when skill checks are not anymore a fixed quantity and that the game doesn't inform the player at the beginning that you must commit to an archetype.

 

[Crimsomrider]

Right, but the question is whether or not the checks are hidden below a certain point. Makes @Crimsomrider's strategy of hoarding attribute points to spend later somewhat problematic. Plus, what other checks are hidden now?

Oh I am only applying my hoarding strat until I pass the Heist because I musn't do any gigs and side missions until I get Johnny, so my levels are a bit limited. Once I pass it though I am completely ignoring all main/side/gig missions and leveling straight to 60 via street thugs and NCPD events. I ain't playing this stupid attribute scaling check game nor any archetype/class MMO-ey gimmick crap.

I am V in Night City, a person that's constantly growing, learning, becoming better... not a damn class from World of Warcraft pulling some arbitrary scaling attribute checks out of its behind.

• Dialogue and dialogue action checks should not be scaled whatsoever. These are flair choices that do not provide any meaningful gameplay rewards, but rather define V's personality and provide satisfying story outcomes.
• Brandon's quest should have the BODY attribute check removed entirely. A completely dumb idea to lock an entire quest behind an attribute check, especially now that attributes are scaling.
• Environmental checks such as BODY/TECH should not scale. They merely open a path to alternate routes or in rare cases a stash room which do not offer any better rewards for having a higher BODY/TECH check.
• Access Points have to be scaled. These are tied directly to gameplay rewards because the higher the INT check, the better the rewards. They always were tied directly to Netrunner gameplay, experience and loot so them being scaled is the only attribute check that makes sense in 2.0.

If CDPR would do this simple tweak, game's immersion and RPG sense would be saved. Enough with the pointlessly gimmicky immersion breaking.

As a bonus, here's a screenshot from an alternate reality where CDPR made the Metro franchise instead. Don't have INT 18 to open a stupid case and grab a cure because you didn't go exclusively into BRAIN archetype? Well too bad then, RIP comrades;

 

[Restlessdingo32]

But this is what myself and other people have been saying since 2.0 release, they want you to play an archetype.
So a low Int brawler would not be able to do other things than "Hulk smashes"-dramatization , i know-.

Hidding skill checks if you don't meet a requirement or are very far from that is actually a good mechanic, I choose that in games that offered it (Outer Worlds,Tyranny,Pillars of Eternity). Problem is,when skill checks are not anymore a fixed quantity and that the game doesn't inform the player at the beginning that you must commit to an archetype.

Part of the issue here is the game originally pushed the whole fluid class concept. Ultimate freedom to be whatever you want when you grow up. 2.0 seems like a departure from that underlying concept to some degree. Understandably, it might not sit well with some folks.

I could maybe see doing this because the enemy scaling opened things up. This was referred to as silly earlier because you'd think they could set those at a static threshold where it makes sense. Based on the type of door, NPC, etc, the nature of the check and the limitations of the intended archetypes within the character progression. Scaling the checks comes off as aggressive gatekeeping in an area where it doesn't belong. Probably as a time saver.

Here's a screenshot from an alternate timeline where CDPR made the Metro franchise instead. Don't have 18INT? Well too bad then, RIP comrades

Heh, given some of the stuff Artyom does on his little adventure in that game I'm pretty sure the character didn't have 18 Int. Suuure, let's hop in a boat and take it across the water. What could go wrong? Nothing but rainbows and unicorns lurk in there. Bring enough flashlight batteries, look hard enough and you can even see their beautiful, puffy ears poking out. Trust me.

 

[Crimsomrider]

Heh, given some of the stuff Artyom does on his little adventure in that game I'm pretty sure the character didn't have 18 Int.

That's precisely my point with the screenshot I made ^^

• Because according to CDPR's logic in 2.0; V is somehow getting dumber just for gaining levels, to the point where certain actions are entirely out of V's reach because they got dumber over time.

Did CDPR forget how life works or the meaning of the word "experience" itself?

• If a person studies for an exam... the exam does not become harder.
• If a person gains experience in a job, the job does not get harder!

Here's an INT 10 check. Oh wait... you gained 25 levels since then, met 200 people in Night City, gained some experience and did some quests? Let me just bump this to INT 19 then, can't have you getting the wrong idea that you got smarter in the meantime from all the accumulated experience ^^

In their attempt to rework the game, they forgot the most basic stuff of both game design and real life;

• Gaining experience gives us levels.
• Gaining levels grows our character. Makes them more intelligent, stronger, faster.
• By becoming more intelligent, stronger or faster certain things become easier and easier.
• By things becoming easier and thus... basic, we ascend and are now able to do more complex things that weren't possible before, while the most basic stuff is no longer a challenge at all.

But now in 2.0, V somehow eventually forgets how to even use a damn keyboard if they gain too many levels.

 

[Didacgomez]

Part of the issue here is the game originally pushed the whole fluid class concept. Ultimate freedom to be whatever you want when you grow up. 2.0 seems like a departure from that underlying concept to some degree. Understandably, it might not sit well with some folks.

It didn't sit well for me,i uninstalled after few hours, but if people like it i will not be as mean as some people during release.
But yes, 2.0 is a departure of the original classless system.
I think that 2.0 is half-baked in part because they didn't want to completely remove 1.63 leveling system either because it would have been too much work or because the perception would have been negative.
If they would have removed attributes completely,let you choose an archetype at start and do a progression purely based choosing abilities from a tree they would have had fundamentally the same result.
Alternate paths/dialog flavour could have been locked behind the archetype, but then i think they would have faced a 2nd wave of "this game is not a RPG"

 

[warlock75]

If some checks are hidden, it's even more difficult to believe it was really intended... Everything about skill checks must be some kind of bug!

This is exactly what I'm thinking now, I'm hoping it'll be patched as the bug it truly is. I was doing gigs for Wakako last night and one of them, can't remember the name, the one with the trapped netrunner you have to release.. I have Technical of 15, that used to be good for most doors, but the doors to get into the area were Tech 18 checks! Lucky I had double jump so could get up to the balcony as an alternate route.

Why I think it's bugged, checks with different attributes were on the same gig with checks of 8s and 9s. Seems odd that the difference would be so vast.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Why I think it's bugged, checks with different attributes were on the same gig with checks of 8s and 9s. Seems odd that the difference would be so vast.

That's the only thing in 2.0 I hope they'll fix if it's a bug or revert back if it's not... I'm fine with everything else

 

[Notserious80]

So my V is level 54 now and im seeing very high checks. like the lowest ive seen in awhile is 15 body. Im maxed out in 3 skills working on body now int is only at 4 cuz fuck hacking my Sandy is so OP its insane. Most checks ive seen since i started have been higher then they used to be, heck even the Judy tech option in her studio was outa reach -.- So they have scaled it and im guessing its a bad attempt at replayability.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

In their attempt to rework the game, they forgot the most basic stuff of both game design and real life;

• Gaining experience gives us levels.
• Gaining levels grows our character. Makes them more intelligent, stronger, faster.
• By becoming more intelligent, stronger or faster certain things become easier and easier.
• By things becoming easier and thus... basic, we ascend and are now able to do more complex things that weren't possible before, while the most basic stuff is no longer a challenge at all.

But now in 2.0, V somehow eventually forgets how to even use a damn keyboard if they gain too many levels.

I doubt they forgot. Consider it from their perspective for a second. They revamped the character progression, tossed in enemy level scaling and adjusted a lot of other areas. Those are some big changes. It's very possible those changes could lead to inconsistencies with the existing ability checks. It doesn't require much to recognize the quick and easy way to navigate that problem.

I can't say I'd be too broken up about hitting checks I can't pass with a given character though. There was some of that before. In many cases it merely provides flavor anyway.

It didn't sit well for me,i uninstalled after few hours, but if people like it i will not be as mean as some people during release.
But yes, 2.0 is a departure of the original classless system.

Well, the complaints at release were primarily targeted at progression being kind of generic. A lot of small percentile boosts here or there. Yet, CDPR responded by making things more rigid. These changes being met with resistance is a pretty good example why it's probably not the best idea in this type of game. One would think a proper response would be to keep things fluid while making them more interesting and impactful. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[Crimsomrider]

I doubt they forgot. Consider it from their perspective for a second. They revamped the character progression, tossed in enemy level scaling and adjusted a lot of other areas. Those are some big changes. It's very possible those changes could lead to inconsistencies with the existing ability checks. It doesn't require much to recognize the quick and easy way to navigate that problem.

Unfortunately this ain't an inconsistency issue. An inconsistency would be a consequence of actual rebalance making something which was previously obtainable now unintentionally/accidentally unobtainable due to unforeseen side-effects that eventually becomes rectified.

What they did is just slap scaling onto existing attribute checks as they did not adjust a single attribute check in the game and by doing so hindered the heart and soul of Cyberpunk; the story and dialogue. That's simply bad game design that contradicts the whole purpose of leveling and experience, so yeah they forgot the basics because otherwise they'd realize that adding scaling onto existing attributes is a terrible mistake which breaks immersion/lore/realism and gameplay logic.

If you require proof that they just slapped scaling onto existing checks;

Jackie's Arch bike's attribute check was always Tech 6 pre-2.0 and it's exactly the same in 2.0 and it remains exactly the same as long as V remains under level 5. At level 5 that Tech 6 now becomes a Tech 7 check.

Alternatively you can visit the Cyberpunk 2077 Wiki - Attribute Checks For Dialogue Choices which has most pre-2.0 attribute checks recorded and then correlate them with the checks you're getting in the game.

 

[Didacgomez]

Well, the complaints at release were primarily targeted at progression being kind of generic. A lot of small percentile boosts here or there.

One issue is the absurd level cap, if you start with +0 damage(or to hit or to crit or any other game mechanic) and want to provide say a double (or whatever) damage by end game the impact is smaller if your level cap is 50 instead of 20.
But i guess most people want not a smooth progression from rookie to ace (which is how many classless tabletop systems work when you add a point into an attribute/skill) but want to unlock a deflect bullets, fast movement after 1st enemy killed, new bloody finisher...
I would have preferred, if they wanted to gut the system, something more like Dishonored,Prey,Death Loop,Deus Ex which gives progression and freedom... but they would have had to improve the underlying systems and quest design outside the gigs quite a bit.

 

[Crimsomrider]

Oh jeez, I would just like to enjoy the story and have good dialogue.

Spoiler

10 COOL, Panam:
View attachment 11366020

9 REFLEX for Claire:
View attachment 11366017

14 TECH to get Saul out:
View attachment 11365867

So I figured out that at your level all of your dialogue checks are now increased by +3.

• Panam's COOL check for kicking her in the butt is COOL 7.
• Claire's REFLEX check about her implants is REFLEX 6.

I'll drive to that location for Saul once I'm in ACT II and report back its base check.

 

[dethtrain]

People need to realize that level-scaling at its root is an anti-grinding feature... so the optimal way of playing 2.0 is to limit your level-ups. You no longer have to worry about enemies at all, they keep pace with you.

Yep, that's why I downloaded an experience multiplier mod and set everything to 10x. Don't have to deal with too many problems when you start post heist at level 30+ (tier 5 dropping at this level). But also I just maxed every attribute anyway with another mod. Each attribute point give so little bonuses now it doesn't matter in that regard, but being blocked out of dialogue choices feels bad. Especially when you've played through the game so many times. The dialogue should be based on the skill levels themselves (Solo, Shinobi, Engineer, Headhunter, Netrunner etc)

 

[GrumpyFranky]

I'm really moved with this skill check scaling to the point I lost my will to play further at this moment.

I've only did one playthrough back on release in 2020 so I was very excited to do second one with expansion.

I didn't noticed the scaling up until Delemain finale and that really high INT skill check, when in first playthrough I could pass it playing with pistol/rifle build with some hacks as support.

Now playing with similar build (more or less) apparently I'm locked of the options/possibilities I had before because I SHOULD pick only one attribute and max it out to have at least one option.

I get that it's somewhat anti-grind/encouraging more playthroughs system, but it shallows roleplay feature. As it was mentioned in this topic - it feels as opposite to progression, like V gets less proficient in his attributes than more. Or that enviroment get magically more "difficult".

Putting few point in INT to roleplay that V knows SOMETHING on nettrunning, but it is not his main skill - apparently now it's impossible, especially if you dared to do some NCPD/side jobs and leveled too much because it soon will lock you off by scalling.

I really, really hope it will be addressed in future patch 2.01 as for now I'm afraid to progress in the game.

 

[ozoak]

Scaling these checks is horrendous. It's such a BS MMO mechanic.
It really sucks the joy out of it, despite levels and progression being continuously smacked with "nah, you're not good enough".

I have spent a ton of time just wandering Night City, exploring doing gigs, NCPD events and other random encounters, and have hit level 26 before getting far into Act 2 (just doing Double Life). I'm locked out of so many things it feels like I am being punished for choosing to play the game in a relaxed 'do what you like' manner.

Ludicrous to think it would encourage me to replay just to open doors or pick some dialogue options which became harder because I got better. No. I'll be using a mod/mem-edit to give myself 100+ attribute points so my experience of the game doesn't have to stall out because of yet another lazy scaling mechanic.

 

[chadesh]

heh part of the reason I haven't bought PL yet. Not going to bother with it til things get patched or changed. Don't want to run into the skill check bs while playing PL.
I somewhat doubt anything will change. They are onto bigger and better things. If you think the skill check thing is a bug then report it, but don't expect anything to happen any time soon.

 

[TotesDorbs]

I think it's a really stupid mechanic. It does not make any sense for skill checks to scale with player character level.

"This door requires you to have 6 in Body to get throu -- wait, you're level 20. In that case, this door requires you to have Body 10 to get through. Your Body attribute is at 6, so, sorry, you're out of luck. Should've come here earlier!"

(I picked random numbers for that example.)

I am curious, why would it make sense that a door should have a set number, which does not scale up or down with a player's level, to open it, but the enemies in front of or behind that door, should scale up or down with the player's level?

If you do not scale the door, but still scale the enemies, then you create areas of the game which are level gated in some way, something which level scaling is designed to eliminate.

If you do scale both the door, along with the enemies, then the game remains "equally difficult" regardless of level (as long as you are appropriately meta gaming and making choices that align with whatever the devs had in their head at the time of design).

I feel like this is the perfect illustration of the absurdity of "level scaling" as a mechanic. I am curious to understand how someone who views scaling as a good mechanic, feels about the above paradox?