Skill Checks Increase/Scale with Level? (2.0)

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I am curious, why would it make sense that a door should have a set number, which does not scale up or down with a player's level, to open it, but the enemies in front of or behind that door, should scale up or down with the player's level?

Because unlike enemies, attribute checks are a direct definition of our own character and growth in Night City, which scaled attribute checks are now directly going against by actively undermining our character's definition and thus hindering our own roleplay.

As is stated multiple times throughout this thread; it's breaking lore, immersion, realism and most of all gameplay logic while crippling the very heart and soul of the game, its dialogue and story, most of all our beloved character V.

It's an illogical gimmick feature because the whole point of levels/experience/skills in games is to simulate what we in real life obtain through years of study, training and hard work. The scaled attribute checks however are entirely against this by implying that V is becoming dumber, weaker, slower with each level.

If I work out 7 days a week, clearly I will become stronger and move onto heavier weights, right? Is that the logical process for just about anything we do in life?

Well the game says if I work out 7 days a week,
I won't be moving onto heavier weights. Instead the weights I'm lifting now will become heavier and entirely become unliftable eventually. So by working out, I am somehow becoming weaker.

Am I here to define my own character or is the game going to define it for me by making my V dumber and weaker just because I gained a level?

As for the enemies, I am alright with them being scaled because it gives them more of an immersive realism feel, makes them feel more... human and alive in a sense in this vast and open world. A sense that just like me they are becoming better, wiser, stronger in Night City.

That absolutely does not mean that they are any challenge even with scaling, but rather that they will somewhat be on an equal playing field and not be underleveled puny ants that drop dead just by V looking at them (as was previously the case as soon as V gets to level 12, though to be honest it still is the case).

They, just like V, are now becoming better throughout our time in Night City and by doing so make all districts viable by providing equal fun, equal experience, equal loot levels.

Attribute checks on the other hand are a different story, they are directly going against V as a character. Fail to keep up and V eventually forgets how to use a keyboard or becomes unable to lift the weights they've been lifting.

Case and point, Jackie's Arch bike. My Nomad Tech V (who freaking repaired her own vehicle in the intro) somehow forgot how bike exhausts work only 5 minutes before meeting Jackie, just because I gained a level.
 
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I am curious, why would it make sense that a door should have a set number, which does not scale up or down with a player's level, to open it, but the enemies in front of or behind that door, should scale up or down with the player's level?

If you do not scale the door, but still scale the enemies, then you create areas of the game which are level gated in some way, something which level scaling is designed to eliminate.

If you do scale both the door, along with the enemies, then the game remains "equally difficult" regardless of level (as long as you are appropriately meta gaming and making choices that align with whatever the devs had in their head at the time of design).
Short answer, doors aren't enemies. Wait, minor correction.... They're not the same type of enemy. Since they emit squeals with a different pitch when you break them.

Anyways, scaling ability checks involves an important distinction. With scaled enemies you don't get gated out of content. A single element is increasing (levels). Character progression involves many elements (attributes, skills, etc). Reach the check at the right time and it can be passed. Reach it later and, depending on progression choices, the player might be barred from passing it.

Yes, scaling the enemies but not the ability checks could yield this gatekeeping mechanism. Scaling both can do so too. It can make the problem worse for the reasons above. So it isn't helping here.

The meta-gaming comment doesn't paint a good picture either. If the system provides strong incentives to meta-game something is wrong with it. A player shouldn't feel an obligation to hoard points in their back pocket. Nor should they feel obligated to focus heavily into specific areas to meet ability checks. Decisions made in progression should be based on progression. Not ability check scaling.
 
Would be nice if CDPR would openly acknowledge whether skill checks level scaling is intended or bug.

If its bug, great, let's fix it ASAP.

If its intended, the only way we're getting rid of this is either mods, which won't help console players, or by bugging CDPR enough that they are forced to make some changes.
 
Hi, so after 2.0 I replayed the game from the start, but I noticed that the choices in dialogues and environments that require skills are ridiculously high, for example in the "don't lose your mind" quest with Delamain, for the option to merge the AIs I need 19 intelligence! is this normal??

*note in the guide it says it only requires 10 Intelligence

I am level 37 currently, with level 50 street cred.
 
Hi, so after 2.0 I replayed the game from the start, but I noticed that the choices in dialogues and environments that require skills are ridiculously high, for example in the "don't lose your mind" quest with Delamain, for the option to merge the AIs I need 19 intelligence! is this normal??

*note in the guide it says it only requires 10 Intelligence

I am level 37 currently, with level 50 street cred.
Skill checks now scale with your character level.

Merged your thread with an existing one on the same topic.
 
thanks for the info and for moving my thread, I thought it was a bug at first because it totally ruined my immersion, I started doing side quests and gigs to increase my level intentionally to not run into this problem, just to have it bite me in the ass, meh guess I'll need a mod to reverse the scaling.
 
I'm going through the changelog again I'm leaning towards that indeed it's a bug. Any mentions of scaling consider only: NPCs, weapons, loot, and vendors.

Sure, it's not list of all changes, but introducing such a big change as skill checks scaling would make it on the change list I guess.
 
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This just put my entire playthrough on hold... checks which i would've bin able to pass i can't do now because of this absolutely dumbass change. great.
 
I bring bad news unfortunately.

Yesterday I've reported the skill checks scaling as an issue through official bug report page, stating that this change is not included in change log and maybe it's unintentional side effect of implementing level scaling to the game.

I've just received the answer (tech support definitely deserves big praise for quick response):

Hi,

Thanks for reaching out to us.

This is as designed, skill checks now scale with player's level (they're set the first time you encounter them and won't change).

I'm kinda confused right now...
 
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I bring bad news unfortunately.
That's such a bad decision, what a terrible thing to do to still checks. It makes no sense, we still have the same number of attribute points, we can only go so far.

They really have made the system like classes now. I'm actually really not enjoying my netrunner thanks to the changes, though I do have lots of cash and the reset attributes button, maybe I should embrace the madness and switch to a flying, sword wielding, bullet deflecting maniac. It seems to be what they want people to be.
 
That's such a bad decision, what a terrible thing to do to still checks. It makes no sense, we still have the same number of attribute points, we can only go so far.

They really have made the system like classes now. I'm actually really not enjoying my netrunner thanks to the changes, though I do have lots of cash and the reset attributes button, maybe I should embrace the madness and switch to a flying, sword wielding, bullet deflecting maniac. It seems to be what they want people to be.
I'm not a lot into studio changes and whatnot, but if I recall correctly there was a change of game director and very often one tries to get rid of the old and put your own seal when you land in this type of positions.
 
Well, my current guess is that CDPR kinda trapped themselves because of implementation of enemies scaling.

Pre 2.0 the level for each area was set prior, so the creators had rough idea how the player will progress through the districts. And checks for dialogue, environment were tuned more or less according to this path (I'm not sure about this, someone can correct me).

But when they added level scaling now they loosed the control of how the player will progress. So player could go straight to City Center and do stuff there. So the easiest solution - slap the level scaling on skill checks.

I might be making things up, since it's been a long time I made a full playthrough. But I can't figure out any other reason.


Anyway - patch is going to be released tomorrow apparently, so considering the answer from tech support I guess the skill checks scaling stays :sad:.
 
I bring bad news unfortunately.

Yesterday I've reported the skill checks scaling as an issue through official bug report page, stating that this change is not included in change log and maybe it's unintentional side effect of implementing level scaling to the game.

I've just received the answer (tech support definitely deserves big praise for quick response):



I'm kinda confused right now...

Awesome /s
At the same time unsurprising, given other changes deliberately made.

Mods will fix it, or I'll just finish PL content and move back to 1.6
 
I'm going to just hope that CDPR rolls back this particular design choice, as it doesn't make much sense and no one playing seems to like it (quite the opposite, really). I haven't played alot of 2.0 as I'm afraid of triggering the corruption bug (I'm on PS5), but this and removing the ability to buy Crafting Materials are the only major things I don't agree with in the new patch thus far.
 
I bring bad news unfortunately.

Yesterday I've reported the skill checks scaling as an issue through official bug report page, stating that this change is not included in change log and maybe it's unintentional side effect of implementing level scaling to the game.

I've just received the answer (tech support definitely deserves big praise for quick response):



I'm kinda confused right now...

Thank you for sharing their reply.

At the same time, I absolutely hate and despise this decision by CDPR. It completely ruins the immersion for me.

And the fact they haven't mentioned level scaling in general in any of their media information and streams pre-release shows they knew its going to be controversial and intentionally didn't talk about it. Cause 2.0 is just one big media show to fix their reputation among mainstream and casual players.

Sadly, it seams it worked...
 
This probably comes across as petty, but as someone who got called various names for not liking enemy level scaling being added, seeing everyone come out as hating scaling in this instance and pulling out exactly the same complaints, except for some reason now those things matter, gives me no small measure of schadenfreude.

Doors inexplicably being more difficult to open is exactly the same as thugs inexplicably being harder to kill. If combat getting harder because I didn't spec right or keep my cyberware at the cutting edge is fine, then so is skill checks getting more difficult because you didn't keep your primary attribute maxed. If your "techie" V is not techie enough for a check you shouldn't've diversified and wasted points in other attributes if you wanted your primary focus to be tech.

To be clear, I dislike skill check scaling just as much as i dislike enemy scaling, but all the arguments against it are exactly the same as the ones against enemy level scaling that the community here and elsewhere enjoyed shooting down.
 
Yeah, just installed 2.01. Nothing about attribute scaling in the patch notes and from the answer they gave to ppl here it seems it was really "by design". Wheter was intentional or not is of no relevance, it is still just a bad mechanic (I would even dare to say lazy).

For now my course of action is to treat cd projekt as Arasaka, just another corpo. So let's break the system and MOD away folks.
 
This probably comes across as petty, but as someone who got called various names for not liking enemy level scaling being added, seeing everyone come out as hating scaling in this instance and pulling out exactly the same complaints, except for some reason now those things matter, gives me no small measure of schadenfreude.

Doors inexplicably being more difficult to open is exactly the same as thugs inexplicably being harder to kill. If combat getting harder because I didn't spec right or keep my cyberware at the cutting edge is fine, then so is skill checks getting more difficult because you didn't keep your primary attribute maxed. If your "techie" V is not techie enough for a check you shouldn't've diversified and wasted points in other attributes if you wanted your primary focus to be tech.

To be clear, I dislike skill check scaling just as much as i dislike enemy scaling, but all the arguments against it are exactly the same as the ones against enemy level scaling that the community here and elsewhere enjoyed shooting down.

Maybe it's because skill checks scaling universally ruins immersion and logic, when arguments of people support scaling that it enhances theirs immersion, because "now they can go to every disctrict like in real city; valentinos shouldn't be stronger than maelstroms, game is not boring after X hours "etc.. I don't find those argument very convincing, but everyone has their definition of immersion.

To be also clear - I'm full into the "scaling hate club". I mean - dumb, flat, unbalanced scaling. Fallout New Vegas provese that you can have some scaling and still keep true RPG with proper progression. But in CP2077 there's everything but tuned scaling.



Needless to say - I now doubt that there will be any changes to those mechanics. Which leaves me with tough choice - should I just grind and max out my character, or use mod (but the one which disables scaling apparently doesn't always work in consisten way) or just cheat my way through maxing out every attribute and choosing whether my V is able to do something or not.
 
If this truly is intended balance design(which I do question because people answering tickets aren't usually themselves developers and are given a list of stock answers for certain question types), then CDPR really needs to send whoever is in charge of the game balancing back to game design school. Enemy scaling CAN be done right, though it's not being done right here at the moment...but the whole point of a skill or attribute check is to provide a static threshold for players to meet, IE check the skill or attribute. It's not supposed to be a moving target that actively works against a players progression.

This isn't the only balancing issue that 2.0x has either. Weapons need another pass since, a precision rifle should not be doing less damage than a pistol and automatics of any type shouldn't be the worst performing weapons in any game. There's a reason we don't go to war with swords and revolvers anymore.

Then there's the whole crafting component thing. Why take them out of vendor supply stock when you've made them the most necessary item in the game now? That flies in the face of the whole enemy scaling reason of limiting the need to grind. Then you nerf the one legitimate method of acquiring components reasonably by making the slot-o-matic vending machine guns only produce 1 component instead of 5 now. It doesn't make any sense, either from a balancing stand point or from a logical stand point.

A lot of the Phantom Liberty/2.0x changes have been good, story is top notch, and the optimization attempts are commendable...but the gameplay balancing feels like someone just fed info into Chat-GPT, skimmed over the results, and was like "that's good enough!".
 
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