And another option where you give your body to Johnny so he can get his own back on Hanaka, or set Alt free
Now i have my own quoteDue to the 25000 character limit, I had to split the summary in more posts. Here's the continuation:
================
@BGM45 and @Simuxas expect that as more and more people finish the game in spite of performance problems and game-breaking bugs, more people will voice their insatisfaction with the current state of the story.
@AKANexus says that the only thing that prevented them from reading the Nomad ending as the "good ending" was the "6 months to live", stating that added nothing to the development of the character
@GreyRaconteur exemplifies how a sad ending mustn't necessarily mean death to the main character, citing Spec Ops The Line, where Walker, the protagonist, can choose to survive and wait for rescue while bearing the guilt and weight of his actions, potentially being worse than suicide by marines or shooting himself.
@Kikinho, @Melra and @Buckadoz all agree there'd a plot hole when Alt says Soulkiller will kill him, and V replies with "Yeah, we got a plan now!". V simply ignores the fact that Alt explicitly states that is not a good outcome. As @Buckadoz states, it would be akin to have a brain cancer tumor, and someone come and say "We can vaporize your whole brain, that will kill the tumor", and replying with "As long as it saves me, I'm in".
@GreyRaconteur asks for someone to summarise this topic. [There you go!]
@hismastersvoice says whether Ctrl+V is V depends on whether you perceive V's engrams as the essence of V
@kaz_ds says that "There are ways to make something feel hopeless and emotional without disregarding absolutely everything you did"
@Cologan reminds us that even on a grim universe as Warhammer 40K's there is light at the end of the tunnel.
@Nefla is disappointed that "nothing we do matters and we just die regardless. In a supposedly choice based game it feels cheap."
@brokensaintvxvx states that there are many games about terminal ilnessess and death, citing Pyre, Beyond Eyes, Alan Wake, Hellblade, That Dragon Cancer and Deus Ex as examples. They say the point of CP2077 story is "to make due with every, single step. To carve out some means to be remembered. All of the characters surrounding you tell you this, from Jackie, Viktor, Dexter DeShawn, Misty, even Rogue, and Johnny. V says to Viktor, that he seems like he's the only person who seems happy with his lot in life, and Viktor replies that its because he's lived long enough for everyone to leave him alone. "
@kaz_ds points what they call plot holes that force V to die anyway, citing that while Johnny's construct can override V's body and live forever while not having a similar phenotype, why can't V's construct override another body? They also suggests the plot about Saburo using his son's body was inserted just to write away reasons for saving V. They state they have the creator, the blueprints and two proofs that it works, so why wouldn't it work with V?
@guerbo says they lost all the motivation for another playthrough, or even go back to before the point of no return, after seeing the other endings, and state that the main mission was too short
@AKANexus says CDPR advertised the game as "make your own path" and compares the current game to multiple paths you can take to a city, yet, they all lead to the same border crossing where you have to declare which end you want to see.
@GreyRaconteur says that having V killed at the end of The Heist and eventually finding out you are just a copy of V would feel somewhat better, because you wouldn't be as commited to V yet when you found out about that.
@Nefla complains that they believed the Heist's outcome could be affected, as marketed, yet they were like "dammit, that stupid trailer is canon" when they understood Jackie cannot be saved at all
@Notserious80 wonders why V didn't use not even one of the hundreds of instaheal packs on Jackie while he was dying. They also wonder why, while you are at the bathroom, you hear Dex making arrangements for 1 seat shuttle, making it obivous you wouldn't leave there alive, yet giving no chance to fight back.
@BGM45 points another choice that didn't matter for them - ratting out Evelyn's offer to Dex or not. 40% of nothing is still nothing.
@kaz_ds says "Even the Panam ending with a family and friends means nothing because you never even get to see it. ", and states that "endings seem to have been constructed as "V needs to die we need to do everything in our hands to shoe horn that in, regardless of story inconsistencies." "
@EnderBeta says although "It's not the destination but the journey that matters" and "Just because V dies doesn't mean that V doesn't matter as a character.", " it seems to me if the universe has so much biotech they could easily have a mechanical body that is passable as human that they could have transferred V's personality too. "
@MeinChurro says "They somehow make the suicide ending the most appealing - it's insane."
@Simuxas, as well as many others, says they would be much happier with a simple statement from CDPR that they are going to work on this
@Motsie quotes the investors meeting transcript in which, when questioned about the player's feedback, Marcin Iwiński focuses the answer only on performance and bugs/glitches feedback, stating "in general PC gamers are enjoying the game a lot and we see very positive comments [on their streams]", as pointed out by @RayBotty
@MandyZGaming asks for an ending where you don't get sent back to the point of no return. Instead provide them with an open space to interact with romances, jobs, gigs, etc.
@Kyrus reminds us about the build up to Mass Effect final entry on the trilogy, and the infamous result
@Notserious80 and @MeinChurro can't believe how a company like CDPR, that has written an RPG as good as Witcher 3 could forget how to create a story with choices and consequences.
@GreyRaconteur and @MeinChurro thinks youtubers' reviews artificially inflate the game quality, calling it "the RPG of the decade" in spite of the story, bugs and performance issues.
@Nekatinyz points out the fact V has no chance of survival devalues the plot, as most players will not return to the game. They also state that "no matter how cool it is, it is a fact that the majority of people like good endings and this is the main incentive to try the game or wait for dlc."
@vahouth compares the biochip construct situation with Altered Carbon's The Stack premise, while @Nekatinyz points out that even then it saves the life of the main character
@eriberri expects that as console players get a more stable version of the game that allows them to actually experience the endings themselves, we'll have such a large playerbase unsatisfied with the game that "will probably make the uproar we got with the ME3 endings seem insignificant."
@BGM45 expertly points out that cyberpunk "really is a masterpiece of immersion because it made several of us go and read through real corpo talk by a company trying to weasel their way out of the problems their terrible management caused. bravo." when referring to the investors meeting manuscript
@MeinChurro and @MandyZGaming both agree the game is more centred around Silverhand rather than V. They say the story is actually about Silverhand and the game railroads the player into the original ending the writers expected. @MeinChurro even ends his post saying "[They] wish we could all just stop talking about JOHNNY SILVERHAND. God [they] are sick and tired of that guy. ", while @RayBotty compares the whole story to a "fanfiction written by one of the devs back in the day when they used to play CP2020. "
@Simuxas points out they missed a great opportunity by having an ending where V survives. As they put, "Everyone were waiting a long time for this game. If they managed to give us some more nicer endings game would have a lot of replayability in itself alone. ", stating that CDPR "could support game for 5-10 years with these kind of expansions. It would bring so much money for company. "
@BlackHawkV "still can't belive someone looked at that and says "Yes that is exactly what we need right now in time of global crysis; a game people were waiting for for years that gives them the chance to kill of their character in 7 different ways in the end and no chance to save them." ", while @Rqin_ agree with them, stating "2020 has been shit, why putting such sad endings?", while pointing out that "a miracle exit, something to save you, and put this ending that almost feels like a god damn cliffhanger to a happy one [is] but high hopes, [they] doubt they'd go that far... "
@eriberri thinks if Silverhand was supposed to be to CP2077 what Geralt was to The Witcher, then the V character shouldn't even be created, as "what player would enjoy just being the pawn, the vessel, for someone else's scheme?". They also say that "it's also a sure-fire way to make people dislike Johnny, which is stupid and probably in direct contrast with CDPR's worship of the character. "
@DeeP_FOCus notes how they built a strong connection to their V (as many other did) and expects/wishes/guesses at least a DLC "that continues V's story and introduces a happy ending option (V recovers). ", and that "
Leaving V's story like this is brutal and unacceptable in [their] opinion."
@Simuxas says the tarot card percentages on the character menu mean nothing at all for the plot
@MeinChurro, @eriberri and @BGM45 agree that Silverhand borderline abuses the player, and, that the effect Silverhand might have on people who grew around abuse, has been, or is being abused can be dangerous to the player themselves.
@eriberri wonders if getting Reeves to play Silverhand was a ploy to sway players to actually try and like the Silverhand character in spite of him being a hateful character because Reeves is one of the most liked and cared for actor, and states "[they]'re pretty sure CDPR did not bank on people hating the endings - and Johnny - quite as much as they did."
@Kikinho says "[they]'d trade the game for a buggier version 100% if it meant [they] get to conclude the story with my V is a satisfying fashion and get to enjoy the city taken place after the story.
@Retro-_- would like to believe during the 6 months V has with Panam, they might eventually find a cure, while @Simuxas wishes they dropped the "6 months" debacle and focused more on whether the person that survives is V or Ctrl+V. @Retro-_- also states that "Alt tacking a finite time on seems a little pointless if we don't get to play that time, doesn't really add anything to the narrative "
@GreyRaconteur points out that the only person who would actually have that doubt is you. To everyone else, they wouldn't be the wiser, and @Buckadoz builds upon this, saying "you wouldn't know it, because you would be dead".
@thewarsend says that CDPR misunderstood the cyberpunk genre, stating that "Cyberpunk isn't about being a hero, it is about surviving, but in CP77 even that option has taken away from us. Each romance ends badly, each story has a dark end to it and each ending in turn is terrible. It didn't need to be this way, in a role playing game there should have been the possibility for a decent enough ending. ". They also point out that even in CP2020 pen and paper RPG survival is a possibility at least. Difficult, yet not impossible.
While @MeinChurro says "Great game ruined by the ending", @Silariell says the game wasn't even that great, using the Jackie's inevitable death, Dex inevitable death and the Relic's inevitable acceptance. They point out, once again that any choice made during Act 1 are fake choices because "every single character involved in act 1 dies and/or becomes irrelevant"
@kaz_ds says that mid-game DLC before the ending would make little sense, as going around the city doing gigs as you cough out your lungs undermines the whole point of the time rush.
@Retro-_- and @Silariell compare the biochip to the "MacGuffin trope" - An item whose power, when questioned within the ruleset of the world, has no answers for why it works this way but not that way, when 'that' way would basically solve everything.
@thewarsend says they think CDPR copied terrible design choices from other developers. The false sense of urgency from Fallout 4, the horrible endings from Mass Effect 3, the faux-mmo feeling or Dragon Age Inquisition and the roleplaying choice system from Telltale Games.
@Retro-_- @MeinChurro and @Simuxas all agree that mid-story DLC would only work if it added alternative endings, otherwise post-game DLC would only work if CDPR canonized Panam ending.
@Retro-_- and @thewarsend point out the motto used on cyberpunk themes, "You can't save the world, only yourself" was thrown out the window with CP2077.
@lethalnoodle thinks the Panam ending filled them with hope, as V says "We'll find a way. We'll get out of here. And then we will go meet your contacts.". They say they are very happy with all the endings, because, despite some absolutely destroying them, "If a videogame can make you go through emotions that's an amazing feat. It meant that you really cared. "
@Buckadoz says that since the game blows past the real V vs Ctrl+V Soulkiller debacle, most people discussing here also disregard that situation and simply accept Panam's ending as "the one where V survives", pointing out the Reddit community is also following the same path
@MeinChurro Brings up Farscape which was a damn good series and it made me add it to my "To watch" list on Netflix again.
@Silakai suggests another ending to the story with no "depressing tragedy crap", stating that RPGs should always have different endings. Good endings for people who hate tragedy and tragic endings for those who like it.
@AKANexus skims the whole thread to summarise what has been discussed so far, and reads though 35 pages of content to create this beeeeeautiful summary post for new comers to skip over 1k posts and join the chat from the get go.
@Nekatinyz points out the game tells us more or less about its principle of operation, working on a cut-and-paste principle. When we, as the player, wake up in Cyberspace it is still the same V, and that is why the soulkiller burns the brain - first it copies the mind, then it transfer the consciousness.
@Simuxas agrees with @djisma69 that the tarot card percentages mean zilch.
@Chibako_NuggetShib offers some suggestions on DLC content.
========
That's the summary up to page 60. I believe that's enough for now.
Please, if you think I misread something you posted, or think something has been omitted from your post, do tell me so I can edit it and make it right. We need this summary to be precise, yet concise for new comers not to get lost, and easily join the conversation.
XD
guys make sure to upvote this so its not lost. if mods can pin this, please do so. at 64 pages deep those summaries are a must to provide ANY useful feedback to devs that hopefully will read this
I loved the Nomad+Judy ending, I will probably never play out any other ending, just as I never choose anybody else than Liara in ME. I was sad than Panam was male-only. Her voice reminds me so much of Jennifer Hale.
I feel about the ending like I do with the game generally, what's there is great, it's just that it needs polish.
The thing about Soulkiller is that it's history from the original cp2020 universe. I don't remember having heard about Mikoshi, but I don't know everything cp2020 either.
I feel about the ending like I do with the game generally, what's there is great, it's just that it needs polish.
The thing about Soulkiller is that it's history from the original cp2020 universe. I don't remember having heard about Mikoshi, but I don't know everything cp2020 either.
Nice overview of the issue 'what's there is great, but there isn't nearly enough of it'
Also feel the same way, love the Panam and V ending solely because of their chemistry, but don't think I can manage another play through, especially knowing the outcomes really don't lead anywhere.
Pretty much it. Story wise it was a waste of time, you don't get to experience anything you spent so much time building, regardless of what color of the ending you got -- by the time all the pieces fall into place emotionally it's already game over.
V's death is not so much an issue if you get to experience what you fought for, whether it is family or fame.
Now it's a slap to the face and it seems rushed -- some of these endings feel like upcoming DLC because they planned to have an epilogue to the story but couldn't crunch it in time -- so they cut it like most of this game and now we are stuck with a pile of shit in terms of the endings.
Oh guys i found an argument to ky opinion about soulkiller and ctrl+v, yes its ctrl+v BUT do you remember game SOMA
If not, then a similar principle worked there , the main character's brain was copied, and he woke up later as a copy , which I want to convey, with such a procedure, the main version is just a copy, and the original that remains in the body is something new
I think if cdprred wanted to do V in final just a copy,
They would have said it more clearly
I do not think that it is necessary to dwell on this moment of the game, the one for whom you played at the beginning is the one who was at the end, you saw all his way through his eyes, what other facts do you need?
If not, then a similar principle worked there , the main character's brain was copied, and he woke up later as a copy , which I want to convey, with such a procedure, the main version is just a copy, and the original that remains in the body is something new
I think if cdprred wanted to do V in final just a copy,
They would have said it more clearly
I do not think that it is necessary to dwell on this moment of the game, the one for whom you played at the beginning is the one who was at the end, you saw all his way through his eyes, what other facts do you need?
Same but with Judy. The chemistry they have is off the charts for me, especially with the little texts she sends sometimes.
I really hope cdpr atleadr aknowledges the complaints. Right now its we'll fix the bugs but radiosilence on everything else.
This is what I hate about most if not all devs. Just complete lack of communication with your playerbase.
I have no doubts they will fix the bugs, the question whether the majority of the player base will forgive them for what they've done. But I have doubts about them redoing anything about the story, it just seems they are content with pushing it out as it is and nothing bothering anymore. Hoping that at least the DLC does something for us of course.
Hope they will too. My cloud 9, one in a billion chance thought is that maybe they already have a plan for DLC/continuation but one or more of us have hit the nail on the head so now they can't say anything because someone has already figured it out. Then I snap back to reality lol
It's ok. People skimming through the posts will eventually find either wall of text and wonder "What the hell is this dude.... Ooooh.... Nice!"
Post automatically merged:
CDPR has a history of not "betraying" their playerbase. They said it on the investors meeting transcript as well. While they do like money, I'm not sure CDPR would risk losing the trust they have earned so far. Trust that many other game developing comapnies have yet to achieve, and that is something noteworthy. Most likely they have an ace on their sleeve to try and improve the story for people who felt betrayed and whatnot, we'll just have to wait and see.
There are lots of great arguments and suggestions on this topic, and it'll be impossible not to at least acknowledge what we are all thinking about the plot, even if that acknowledgment is "We hear you, but unfortunately that's the way we'd like the story to go".
The whole issue with that is that they could have delayed it again, they knew the state of the game but it seems like they didnt care. It's easier for them to ask for forgiveness and fix the issue instead of straight out saying the game was not ready and not finished. But like we both said their reputation is what kept them as the golden company of the gaming community, people were crazy about them and now they have to work to get that back and it will never be the same. Was it worth it?
But that doesn't really have much to do with the topic and I am just sincerely disappointed that we didn't get what could have been the game of the decade, instead a beta early access game that will probably never be finished (improved slightly maybe, but never the same amount of content as promised before), especially with those endings...
But that doesn't really have much to do with the topic and I am just sincerely disappointed that we didn't get what could have been the game of the decade, instead a beta early access game that will probably never be finished (improved slightly maybe, but never the same amount of content as promised before), especially with those endings...
In the end, after reading through 60 pages of arguments, I can say, indeed it wasn't a total "waste of time"... The first playthrough ever, when you don't know about the endings, and you are there to experience the story for the first time, living it as much as you can, is magical. Is something that even I, who hated the endings with all my fibers, can't dismiss as a "waste of time". Doing it all over, though, is, as in spite of the game offering you "choices", it's just like a book. The magic is lost, and you already know what's going to happen. For example, I've never managed to reread the LOTR trilogy. The first time you read, you get that magical feeling of fantasy and magic. But to read everything again after you already know that Gandalf doesn't die while the rest of the party flees, that Saruman is defeated, and that Sauron can be killed by a woman, all of the magic is lost.
I still can't stop thinking about this. Never in my entire life was there a game that conflicted me that much. It's just the whole story revolves around V and working towards not dying. There is no great plot where the world is in peril and we need to save it or the great conspiracy that needs to be stopped. Just us trying our darndest to survive. "We can not save the world just ourselves" Jeah right...worked out great that one. There are places for endings where the MC dies in the end by heroicly sacrificing themselfs to slay the beast, safe the world or the entire galaxy or whatever! But in a game where almost the whole story revolves around that one goal: saving oneself. And not being able to do that in the end feels like the bitchslap of the century.
The main issue is that this game has been waited for 8 years now, and people were starting to lose interest/hope, so they pushed a release date just so people still waited. As they said it themselves, the game was in a "playable" state. Was it complete? Far from it.
Post automatically merged:
Totally agreed. You spent the whole game with the underlying promise that you can be saved, just to get killed. The issue here, probably, is that we got spoiled by other great stories that have good endings, so we are conditioned to expect good endings whenever we play a game we play to escape the real life grind. People usually play games for escapism, and when that expectation is thrown out of the window we feel betrayed and depressed. "If I can't even save a character that I was promised I could save, what good will I ever find in my life?)" right?
First mistake they made really. Setting that goddamn release date. Should have just kept on doin what they did and say that it's done when it's done and not sooner.