You do realise that fixing Yen/Ciri relationship is something that can be easily done, while the Wild Hunt and that shit with the White Frost can't?
You do realise that fixing Yen/Ciri relationship is something that can be easily done, while the Wild Hunt and that shit with the White Frost can't?
This shouldn't be a criteria. The most important question CDP should ask themselves should be "How can we fix the mess in act 3 and improve the main story?"I don't see how any additional Ciri-Yen interaction would fix anything in this regard.
They can't. There's no way they can fix the White Frost and the Wild Hunt without rewriting the story, which they definitely will not do. Ciri-Yen interaction will at least fix Ciri's character. Also even though there are definitely bigger problems with the story than Yen-Ciri relationship, but not that many people are actually complaining about them. The devs even won an award for the best story :dry:
Really? Additional Yennefer-Ciri scenes would fix Ciri?
How would they fix that Ciri's "dark" sides from the books (killing innocents) didn't have any impact on her character and she is portrayed as Miss "close to perfect"?
How would it fix that she turned into the "chosen one who saves the universe(s)", although she never had that role in the books?
How would it fix that for some reason she has the abilities to stop the White Frost without any explanation?
The problem's with Ciri's portrayal (who has little in common with books Ciri, that I agree with) are far deeper than her rather distanced behaviour towards Yennefer. And in opposite to more Yen interaction my above mentioned points would actually also contribute to the story.
Sorry, bad choice of words on my part. I wanted to say that it would improve one aspect of Ciri's character. She's a total mess in the game, nothing can fix her at this point.
The White Frost in the game is a gigantic mistake and is absolute *Insert word that may make me get banned here*. Can it be saved? Yes. Will it be easy? No. Will CDPR ever do it. 100% they never will improve that PoS. Too much time and too much money.
Eredin is the second biggest mistake. Will giving him more Ciri interaction help? Yes. Will it be easy? Not quite. Would it be REALLY good if we also give him interaction with the person he abducted and his greatest fighter? Absolutely. Can it be done? Yes. Easier than White Frost? Yes. Will it be don? I doubt it.
The mother-daughter thing with all its connotations was a fairly big deal and is also a very rare topic to be central theme of fantasy fiction. It also tied to other main themes from the books. Can it be fixed? More or less. Is it easy? In comparison to the other 2, it is. Will it make an impact? Yes. Will even gamers see it and appreciate it? Probably, even though Id suggest they go and read the books...
Is it cheap and relatively easy to fix? Yes.
Should it be done? Yes. Is it a step for TW3? Yes. Will it look less bad in comparison to the books then? Yes. Is it also a step up for gaming? Yes. In an ideal world would I also want what you are saying to be addressed? Yes I would. But if we were living in such a world, we would not be having this discussion at all.
"(I mean for everybody and not only the +-10 people on this forum whose only interest in the game seems to be Yennefer)"
2/10
*EDIT*
Yes this would also actually improve Ciri and Triss and Geralt as well. Just not directly (for the last two).
Yes it is a rare topic in term of videogame storytelling, but CDP obviously didn't want to explore it any deeper. Just because a topic wasn't explored in the past, it doesn't mean there is any obligation for CDP to do so. Furtermore it wouldn't make much sense considering we are playing as Geralt and his father/daughter relationship with Ciri is the focus. Like mentioned before, Ciri is a narrative tool and Yennefer is just a common npc. Even if they wanted to explore the mother/daughter theme, they would have to change Ciri's role to an active protagonist. Otherwise a deep exploration of that topic would be very difficult to achieve and imo contradict what the game is about.Charcharo;1955530It said:
Repeatedly answering my doubts if a deeper Yen-Ciri relation would enhance the game in any way with a simple "Yes" , without giving any examples how it would make the game better, isn't really convincing. But to be fair, no one in this thread gave me any example how it would add to the game so far.Charcharo;1955530It said:
The only thing I read is a very Yennefer focused view, that she should be treated better by Ciri, because she deserves it. Unfortunately that argument applies to many characters, which risked their lifes for Ciri and didn't get any interaction with her, even if it's only a simple "thanks".
Charcharo;1955530It said:
You should notice my word of choice "seems". I'm not saying that I 100% certain that some people only care about Yennefer, but you won't deny that some of the most vocal supporters of more Ciri/Yennefer interactions are very Yennefer focussed and it seems that Yennefer's well-being is their most important goal?
Anykind of new content could improve the characters, if it's done right. Again, you refuse to give any examples how exactly it would improve the game(not just the relation, but the overall game and for everybody and not just the books Yen-fans )Charcharo;1955530It said:
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For a TLDT version, click here
It will not contradict what the game is about... that is an absurd thought. And there are many ways to do it even when Gervant the idiot is the protagonist
The game also takes the (superior) books as canon. If it had nothing to do with the books... I might give its many stupid faults a pass. Unfortunately for it, it does not, and is filled with missed opportunities.
I do not see how it is not absolutely obvious how these things would improve the game...
Yennefer Ciri is my 3rd or 4th biggest gripe in the games writing. It is just one of the easier ones to fix. Hence why so vocal about it.
Well, it's perfectly normal for people to care about their favorite character the most, right? Triss fans were allowed to complain about her romance, but we're not allowed to complain about stuff we don't like?
Yen/Ciri relationship is most important part in books, but games? in the other hand yennefer show us her motherly side but Ciri? Zyvik, explain the problem Ciri's. And I think same. Triss, like a big sister books and games, everyone knows it. There is no interactions yen ciri and ''triss ciri'' too...
Hmm..."The Witcher 3 studio has largely moved on to Cyberpunk 2077"
http://www.gamesradar.com/witcher-3-studio-moved-cyberpunk-2077/
So unless Blood and Wine adds anything, I guess it's game over ._.
That didn't stop them to fix the issues with Triss first and foremost and that didn't fix anything related the main story, too. It's also so far the only thing they fixed (aside gameplay features and technical bugs).
http://www.gamesradar.com/witcher-3-studio-moved-cyberpunk-2077/
So unless Blood and Wine adds anything, I guess it's game over ._.
That didn't stop them to fix the issues with Triss first and foremost and that didn't fix anything related the main story, too. It's also so far the only thing they fixed (aside gameplay features and technical bugs).
I know I'm extremely late to the party, but I wanted to express my support for the whole issue nonetheless.
And I want to do that by quoting what CDPR had to say on the matter. I agree that they have the right to re-adapt the books lore to fit their own story, but what I'm quoting here is not something that comes from the books. Rather, it's what establishes the actual game canon as intended by CDPR, since it's the first mention of the "family" concept we met in the games. And I think we can ask CDPR to make their games consistent, right?
I'm talking of course about the dialogue you get in TW1, Chapter IV, when talking to the innkeeper in Murky Waters.
It's probably been quoted on these forums already, but repeating it won't hurt. Among the other things, it's a nice piece of prose:
(emphasis mine)
And there you have it. This is CDPR canon. I think it's the strongest argument you can make about this issue.
Also: you can get a clear hint of the family concept even in the launch trailer for TW3, with Yennefer looking down from the balcony when Ciri is training with Geralt at Kaer Morhen. As if they wanted to present this concept to everybody who were unfamiliar with the lore. This is a scene that CDPR specifically made for the trailer, as you probably remember that in game, it's actually Vesemir who's looking down. So it seems that not only TW3 is inconsistent with TW1, it's even worse... it's inconsistent with itself and its own promoting material. (that was published 5 hours before the release on May 19th, so it's not inaccurate stuff like the old trailers made with even older builds)
This game was meant to be "the ending of Geralt's personal story" according to pretty much everyone at CDPR. Is Geralt's family something that does not belong to his personal story? I find it hard to believe. And even CDPR hinted that they were addressing the thing, the trailer is just there to show it.
All it would take is some well placed cutscene with some truly high-quality dialogue lines that give at least a nod to the whole thing that CDPR itself presented to us. They could do that even in the context of making Blood & Wine, provided their writers take this seriously and give some real thought about it.
And I want to do that by quoting what CDPR had to say on the matter. I agree that they have the right to re-adapt the books lore to fit their own story, but what I'm quoting here is not something that comes from the books. Rather, it's what establishes the actual game canon as intended by CDPR, since it's the first mention of the "family" concept we met in the games. And I think we can ask CDPR to make their games consistent, right?
I'm talking of course about the dialogue you get in TW1, Chapter IV, when talking to the innkeeper in Murky Waters.
It's probably been quoted on these forums already, but repeating it won't hurt. Among the other things, it's a nice piece of prose:
She was born a princess who wanted for nothing, had loving parents and a grandmother who was a great queen.
She lived in palaces guarded by hundreds of knights. Everyone thought she'd become a great queen. But fate had other plans.
Her parents died. Enemied butchered her grandmother and took the kingdom. Still, the princess survived. Her fate become bound to one particular witcher.
She gained a new family at Kaer Mohren, the hold of the witchers. She learned to fight. Yet destiny once again made noise. The lass had magical talent.
She was a source. The witchers afeared the uncontrolled power of a source and needed a sorceress to assist them. She studied arcane magic.
The sorceress loved a witcher and the two adopted the girl. She was truly happy and could have become a powerful sorceress...
But war broke out and the fate separated the family. Aggrieved, the lass disawoved magic and become a huntress, learning to love killing.
Death followed her - everyone she'd loved had died. Only the witcher and the sorceress denied Death's calling.
Fate cast her to foreign shores, yet she returned. The worst assassin tailed her, yet she emerged victorious.
Agents of all kingdoms pursued her, yet none caught her. When she killed all her enemies and peace descended upon the world, she rejoined the witcher and the sorceress, only to have destiny sneer at her again.
[...]
A peasant unskilled in arms killed the witcher. The sorceress died trying to revive him. The girl could do nothing for she'd disawoved magic.
So the princess who would not rule, the witcheress who fought humans, and the sorceress who cast no spells used her power as a means to leave this world.
[...]
Her name was Cirilla. What's that matter?
She lived in palaces guarded by hundreds of knights. Everyone thought she'd become a great queen. But fate had other plans.
Her parents died. Enemied butchered her grandmother and took the kingdom. Still, the princess survived. Her fate become bound to one particular witcher.
She gained a new family at Kaer Mohren, the hold of the witchers. She learned to fight. Yet destiny once again made noise. The lass had magical talent.
She was a source. The witchers afeared the uncontrolled power of a source and needed a sorceress to assist them. She studied arcane magic.
The sorceress loved a witcher and the two adopted the girl. She was truly happy and could have become a powerful sorceress...
But war broke out and the fate separated the family. Aggrieved, the lass disawoved magic and become a huntress, learning to love killing.
Death followed her - everyone she'd loved had died. Only the witcher and the sorceress denied Death's calling.
Fate cast her to foreign shores, yet she returned. The worst assassin tailed her, yet she emerged victorious.
Agents of all kingdoms pursued her, yet none caught her. When she killed all her enemies and peace descended upon the world, she rejoined the witcher and the sorceress, only to have destiny sneer at her again.
[...]
A peasant unskilled in arms killed the witcher. The sorceress died trying to revive him. The girl could do nothing for she'd disawoved magic.
So the princess who would not rule, the witcheress who fought humans, and the sorceress who cast no spells used her power as a means to leave this world.
[...]
Her name was Cirilla. What's that matter?
(emphasis mine)
And there you have it. This is CDPR canon. I think it's the strongest argument you can make about this issue.
Also: you can get a clear hint of the family concept even in the launch trailer for TW3, with Yennefer looking down from the balcony when Ciri is training with Geralt at Kaer Morhen. As if they wanted to present this concept to everybody who were unfamiliar with the lore. This is a scene that CDPR specifically made for the trailer, as you probably remember that in game, it's actually Vesemir who's looking down. So it seems that not only TW3 is inconsistent with TW1, it's even worse... it's inconsistent with itself and its own promoting material. (that was published 5 hours before the release on May 19th, so it's not inaccurate stuff like the old trailers made with even older builds)
This game was meant to be "the ending of Geralt's personal story" according to pretty much everyone at CDPR. Is Geralt's family something that does not belong to his personal story? I find it hard to believe. And even CDPR hinted that they were addressing the thing, the trailer is just there to show it.
All it would take is some well placed cutscene with some truly high-quality dialogue lines that give at least a nod to the whole thing that CDPR itself presented to us. They could do that even in the context of making Blood & Wine, provided their writers take this seriously and give some real thought about it.
And you've presented the case masterfully, thumbs up.
It's like there was a group at CDPR who wanted to make this right, and in accord with the books, but somehow it got wrestled out of their control and degenerated into a more mainstream form, so people who don't know the books, don't have to care about Yen and the original family concept.
Understandable from a business perspective, just wish so badly it would be fixed in the name of art and making Witcher 3 a better game.
It's like a turd in a fruit salad, hard to ignore, no matter how many times you look at it.
Hey Kallelinski,
Thank you SO much for taking the time to write this - this is an EXCELLENT post about Yennefer and Ciri - I've never joined a forum before - but I read this and thought I absolutely needed to say you're 100% right - the game should do a lot more to show Yennefer, Ciri and Geralt tackle the missions as a family / show more of Ciri and Yennefer's relationship, and definitely include Yen in all the 'family' bits between Ciri and Geralt. Yen does as much or MORE for Ciri than Geralt. I'd go as far as I would absolutely LOVE to have to option to play as Yennefer in parts of the game (she totally rocks and is hugely important to the story).
Again, THANK YOU for taking the time to write this. x
Thank you SO much for taking the time to write this - this is an EXCELLENT post about Yennefer and Ciri - I've never joined a forum before - but I read this and thought I absolutely needed to say you're 100% right - the game should do a lot more to show Yennefer, Ciri and Geralt tackle the missions as a family / show more of Ciri and Yennefer's relationship, and definitely include Yen in all the 'family' bits between Ciri and Geralt. Yen does as much or MORE for Ciri than Geralt. I'd go as far as I would absolutely LOVE to have to option to play as Yennefer in parts of the game (she totally rocks and is hugely important to the story).
Again, THANK YOU for taking the time to write this. x
Agreed, so well put and you brought up very good points @algernon79
Especially this, good you brought it up!
So glad to find this already posted. Just finished the final game last night after spending the last 2 months reading all the books and playing through the full series. Definitely the best game I've ever played, and having read the books added so much to it. One of my biggest - and only - complaints is the lack of Ciri-Yen interaction. It would change the narrative only slightly for just one scene of Ciri looking up to Yen the same way she does Geralt. I think a fantastic addition would be quest with just the two of them, somewhat similar to Geralt and Ciri going to fight Imlerith and the crones. Control Ciri and go with Yen to finish something up while Geralt is looking for the sunstone with Phillipa. Even if not though, just one scene in one of the happier endings of the three of them together would give a lot more closure.
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So almost 4 months and...nothing.
Well, I guess either I was too late to bring up this issue so they could do something about it in that famous patch or they don't want to in the first place or can't anymore. I doubt the last expansion will change anything, so unless they really consider something like an enhanced edition, which they already ruled out months ago, I guess it is lost cause, great...at least we got fanfiction patched in, but not this.
Well, I guess either I was too late to bring up this issue so they could do something about it in that famous patch or they don't want to in the first place or can't anymore. I doubt the last expansion will change anything, so unless they really consider something like an enhanced edition, which they already ruled out months ago, I guess it is lost cause, great...at least we got fanfiction patched in, but not this.
Man, just one question:
Why?
Why are you wasting your talent and time on this. I've checked your posts, I've found some good points about the plot's shortcomings, I can agree with your several arguments, but from the side it looks like a fight with your own shadow cause it repeats over and over.
Hopeless and meaningless. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but I'm sure there are no real reasons to be so upset about the imperfect plot.
Why?
Why are you wasting your talent and time on this. I've checked your posts, I've found some good points about the plot's shortcomings, I can agree with your several arguments, but from the side it looks like a fight with your own shadow cause it repeats over and over.
Hopeless and meaningless. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but I'm sure there are no real reasons to be so upset about the imperfect plot.
Even when im overall an optimist, i doubted from the start that this our ''issue' would get fixed via patch. Though i certainly would see something new brought within Blood and Wine expansion, as i heard they've actively listened huge amount of fan feedback as gameplay-wise aswell as story-wise. My dream comparison here would be Citadel DLC for Mass Effect 3. Anyone who has played it has the general idea what i am after.
And i believe Enhanced Edition would still happen even if it is yet to be confirmed, since feedback forums has been flooding with topics about act 3 mess and such, which i absolutely agree with. I think it's already a general opinion that this game needs EE as much as the first two games did.
Never say never =)