WE had homecoming, how about home departure?

[4RM3D]

So, in summary, Gwent:
+ Blacklisting
+ 3 bronze copies
-/+ More tutors also means riskier mulligans
- Less draws (13 cards total, instead of 16)
- Less flexible mulligans (depending on the HC leaders)

In Homecoming, the flexible mulligans can offset the lack of blacklisting. Next, the extra draws can offset the 2 copy limit. Also, tutors are a double edged sword, especially in Homecoming. Finally, while not all leaders have the same amount of mulligans, some are still highly consistent, especially Skellige (also having units like Derran and Birna). Simply put, Homecoming hasn't become a RNG-fest, even though it might feel that way.

That brings me to one last thing, provisions or the result thereof, variance. And this is where it basically boils down to. In theory, your opening hand in Homecoming could be worse, but in practice the impact isn't as great as in Gwent because tempo openings are dead and you have oppertunities to unload bad/cheap cards. So, even with the variance, the increased RNG can still be compensated.

 

[sfruzz]

what is even more consistent is just drawing more cards

- Less draws (13 cards total, instead of 16)

You forget silver spies and combos like Avallach/Albrich into Decoy. In Homecoming, additional card draw is quite susceptible to distruption. I think you draw the same amount of cards.

There should be out in the internet a video by Freddybabes that describes the problem with current mulligans, including why is not good for the game to allow players to keep mulligan between turns.

That was only the case for NR, which was the faction to easily play tons of low value cards from the deck.

Mulligan ST had also many tools to control the card you'd draw. That was one of my favorite archetypes. It was fun to have an archetype in which you'd not rely on nuking everything present of the board.

So, even with the variance, the increased RNG can still be compensated.

True, especially looking at the competition.

 

[Fimbulthrym]

The fact that Gwent HC is so inconsistent, draw depend, is because of the lack of tutor card, so I think CDPR just make more BRONZE cards that TUTOR cards from deck (somthing like: look at the 2 difference special or unit or artifact, play 1 and shuffle other) and Gwent HC deck will be consistent as it was.
Ex: like in old Gwent, when you facing sabbath and you only have Vesemir: mentor as a turtor of mandrake in hand, then you know you safe, or royal > vesemir > mandrake.... To me that is skill right there, skill in deck buiding.
Old Gwent is more consistent because you play card from your deck, in Gwent HC, you mostly play card in your hand so if you have bad draw then you done.

The mass of tudors in OB was bad for Gwent, because you can easily go through you deck. Therefor the tudored cards were desgined fo tudor. So their were to weak for standalone. I dont like cards which heavily depend on being tudored.

 

[4RM3D]

Therefor the tudored cards were desgined fo tudor. So their were to weak for standalone.

That was indeed another issue of tutors, which also limited the design space. Though, ironically, that's no reason to not have tutors in Homecoming. Why? Because they can now be tweaked with provision costs. Simply put, a tutor can cost more provisions and a tutored card can cost less. Or the devs could implement a cap on tutors, like tutoring a card which costs less than 8 provisions.

 

[jgolden234]

As a first aid bandage I'd just increase the number of mulligans per leader. This should also improve consistency a bit.

If you reintroduce some tutor, they might get as popular as the witcher trio...

That is true. I tend to play leaders with more Mulligan's for that reason

 

[Que-Hegan]

The mass of tudors in OB was bad for Gwent, because you can easily go through you deck.

So "easily go through your deck" now is a problem?!

So their were to weak for standalone.

Why you play them from hand ("standalone" you said) when they are designed to be tutored. Do you not have mulligans?

P/s: i can see here (this topic) that nobody like tutor card, so i guess i have no choice but flying away.

Oh, just one more thing, since you guy don't like tutor card why the Trio witcher so popular in Gwent HC, guess what because they tutor them self out of your deck, help you thin and make your remain deck more consistent for the next time you draw card.

Thank 4 reading.

 

[rrc]

Frustration?! that mean you don't like to have more tutor card?
BTW, "why they wanted fewer tutors" if i may ask.

If you get to play all the cards (or nearly almost always all the cards) then where is the skill? A match is decided even before it starts. Deck A will always win against deck B, etc. You just come with a plan and just get to execute it no matter what. IMHO, it is not skill at all. You should never be able to play (or interact) with all the cards in your deck. Then the game is broken. For me, the skill comes into play with regards to how you adapt to the situation and you manage with the cards you get in your hands. It is not like you throw in 25 random cards. Somehow the cards are related and hence figure out with your hand how to win and when to pass etc.

 

[Mancoon1980]

Hi I invested in gwent early as I enjoyed the beta. Now I have 180,000+ scraps and but no cards I want to craft since homecoming seems to have applied modifications to the cards and turned them all to garbage.

It also seems to have stuffed around with a bunch of the game mechanics. At first I thought my computer might have had a virus.

How can I uninstall Homecoming and return to proper gwent? I can't find the button.

It's sad my friend, that version we loved is gone forever, unless we can convince them to add it as a game mode.

 

[mahboi1]

They really should bring back the old Gwent. Just look around. The feedback has been near unilaterally negative. Barely over a tenth of the playerbase has beaten the tutorial. Several content creators have ditched the game in favour of the competition. There's no two ways about it: Homecoming is a failure. Unless CDPR pulls out all the stops, or brings back the old version gwent will be defunct by next summer, tops.

 

[kAiSeR007]

If you get to play all the cards (or nearly almost always all the cards) then where is the skill? A match is decided even before it starts. Deck A will always win against deck B, etc. You just come with a plan and just get to execute it no matter what. IMHO, it is not skill at all. You should never be able to play (or interact) with all the cards in your deck. Then the game is broken. For me, the skill comes into play with regards to how you adapt to the situation and you manage with the cards you get in your hands. It is not like you throw in 25 random cards. Somehow the cards are related and hence figure out with your hand how to win and when to pass etc.

This. People is so used to have a defined and straight forward strategy that now they are lost. Now you need to chose how and when to play your cards much more careful, it's not as obvious as before. Ofc there are a lot of things to ve readjusted and fixed, but for me this new version of Gwent involves a more thinking, timing and strategy than before, and it is a good thing.

 

[Mancoon1980]

This. People is so used to have a defined and straight forward strategy that now they are lost. Now you need to chose how and when to play your cards much more careful, it's not as obvious as before. Ofc there are a lot of things to ve readjusted and fixed, but for me this new version of Gwent involves a more thinking, timing and strategy than before, and it is a good thing.

Not everyone played auto pilot decks. Thinking was always required. I hate many of the autopilot decks. I dislike I can't create a themed deck anymore. Now eveything feels the same, why even have factions now. Any card could be swapped into any faction now as abilities are too Samey now. You may have to think but now it's mostly because the rng of draw makes you adapt to crap hands. 3 bronze cards really helped give fabrics a purpose and identity. Feels weird seeing 2 card swarms as well.

 

[flyhy]

You forget a much more important point. Even if mulligan with blacklisting is a lot more consistent, what is even more consistent is just drawing more cards, which is the case in homecoming. Furthermore, the biggest advantage of blacklisting was to remove cards that you never wanted to play, because they were tutored directly from the deck, something which hardly exists anymore in homecoming. And if you had those cards not in the hand you couldn't use your mulligans in round 2 or 3, because you had the risk of drawing them.
...
Furthermore, if you had a good starting hand in pre Midwinter, all your mulligans were lost, and because of tutored cards you couldn't dare mulliganing in round 2 and 3, while in HC you can keep your mulligans and use them in the last round, which is a lot stronger. And even if you have bad cards in your hand, you can play them in round 1 or 2 and keep all your mulligans for round 3, which gives even more reliability.

It gotta be a big fat joke saying HC is more consistent.

First of all, consistency comes with tutors to increase the probability to draw a card needed as well as the ability to control your cards, and number of cards that synthesize with each other. The lack of tutors and the lost of or diluted archetypes and the 6 draws later rounds in HC is far from being consistent in any aspect.

When you have a good starting hand, mulligan is NOT NEEDED rather than being lost because mulligan is to fix a bad hand rather than something that's a must to do. Old Gwent had a fixed mulligan of 5 for 3 rounds, 10 starting hand with 3 draws in later rounds. Less draw in later rounds = less draw dependent, therefore, less draw RNG which leads to draw stability thus consistency. Plus, tutors that enable an increase in probability to draw a specific card make old Gwent that much more consistent.

One more thing ... mulligan doesn't provide reliability since the card you black listed can come back to you in later round. Especially when it is a 25 card deck which makes mulligan even more unreliable since the card you black listed has a higher probability to come back to you than a deck with 60 cards. Also, mulligan is a RNG feature that doesn't really make anything reliable or consistent.

Oh and forgot to add ...
RNG IS THE OPPOSITE OF CONSISTENCY.
Increased overall RNG in HC makes HC that much more inconsisntent.

by including more medium provision costs instead of high and low provisions.

How interesting. I miss the time when we built decks by card synergies and their abilities and not by numbers.

 

[Que-Hegan]

It gotta be a big fat joke saying HC is more consistent.

First of all, consistency comes with tutors to increase the probability to draw a card needed as well as the ability to control your cards, and number of cards that synthesize with each other. The lack of tutors and the lost of or diluted archetypes and the 6 draws later rounds in HC is far from being consistent in any aspect.

When you have a good starting hand, mulligan is NOT NEEDED rather than being lost because mulligan is to fix a bad hand rather than something that's a must to do. Old Gwent had a fixed mulligan of 5 for 3 rounds, 10 starting hand with 3 draws in later rounds. Less draw in later rounds = less draw dependent, therefore, less draw RNG which leads to draw stability thus consistency. Plus, tutors that enable an increase in probability to draw a specific card make old Gwent that much more consistent.

One more thing ... mulligan doesn't provide reliability since the card you black listed can come back to you in later round. Especially when it is a 25 card deck which makes mulligan even more unreliable since the card you black listed has a higher probability to come back to you than a deck with 60 cards. Also, mulligan is a RNG feature that doesn't really make anything reliable or consistent.

Oh and forgot to add ...
RNG IS THE OPPOSITE OF CONSISTENCY.
Increased overall RNG in HC makes HC that much more inconsisntent.


How interesting. I miss the time when we built decks by card synergies and their abilities and not by numbers.

Finally, the comment that i've been waiting for!!!
"HC is more consistent" is just an out of season april fools joke!
Every one here keep saying that in HC you have more card draw between round, more mulligans, but for what when you draw the card you need for round 1 in the beginning of round 2

[...] keep all your mulligans for round 3

BTW, Letho of Gulet is comming for you, good luck with "keep all your mulligans for round 3"

Some said: Tutors limited the design space, look at Gwent HC and see how diversity it is.
Let say, for Nilfgaard, in old Gwent, we have Reveal, Spy, Alchemy, Mill, Soldier swarm..., and now all we have is the Trio witcher and reveal package amazing diversity right there

 

[Restlessdingo32]

When you have a good starting hand, mulligan is NOT NEEDED rather than being lost because mulligan is to fix a bad hand rather than something that's a must to do. Old Gwent had a fixed mulligan of 5 for 3 rounds, 10 starting hand with 3 draws in later rounds. Less draw in later rounds = less draw dependent, therefore, less draw RNG which leads to draw stability thus consistency. Plus, tutors that enable an increase in probability to draw a specific card make old Gwent that much more consistent.

Not sure what you're getting at here. If old Gwent is to mean Midwinter then, yes, there was far more consistency. The problem is if you have too much consistency every single game ends up being almost identical. Everyone can pull the entire deck, or all the important parts, every single time. Once those decks/builds are learned the game play revolves entirely around whether one player screws up and/or other mechanics like coin flip. It'd be true to say this involves skill but much of that goes out the window when coin flip abuse can decide games. At that point it's as much a game of roulette as anything.

HC has room for improvement, most definitely. I think they may have went to an extreme on tutors and tried to minimize them on purpose. If only to get a read on what the game play feels like without a healthy supply of tutors. We could probably use 1-2 more in-game, available to every faction in some form (either neutral or faction specific). The problem there is in order to do that cards like Witchers need to be toned down. Otherwise there is no reason not to use them and the additional tutors. At that point we're back to too much consistency.

If you're asking what less consistency adds... Well, it makes you think and adapt. Both in the deck builder and the game play. You can build a deck to be somewhat consistent in HC. At least in the sense the important parts will be drawn somewhat reliably. Some factions don't even need Witchers for it (SK, arguably MS/NG). What you can't do is guarantee you'll see every single card in your deck. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. Primarily because it forces players to adjust. That, by itself, is a skill.

Yeah, I've lost my share of games in HC due to poor draws. In hindsight, in many of those games I could have done something differently to overcome that disadvantage. Find some points, somehow, someway to turn the loss the other way. Sometimes you just get screwed. I don't see how this was any different for most of Gwent.

 

[flyhy]

Not sure what you're getting at here. If old Gwent is to mean Midwinter then, yes, there was far more consistency. The problem is if you have too much consistency every single game ends up being almost identical. Everyone can pull the entire deck, or all the important parts, every single time. Once those decks/builds are learned the game play revolves entirely around whether one player screws up and/or other mechanics like coin flip. It'd be true to say this involves skill but much of that goes out the window when coin flip abuse can decide games. At that point it's as much a game of roulette as anything.

HC has room for improvement, most definitely. I think they may have went to an extreme on tutors and tried to minimize them on purpose. If only to get a read on what the game play feels like without a healthy supply of tutors. We could probably use 1-2 more in-game, available to every faction in some form (either neutral or faction specific). The problem there is in order to do that cards like Witchers need to be toned down. Otherwise there is no reason not to use them and the additional tutors. At that point we're back to too much consistency.

If you're asking what less consistency adds... Well, it makes you think and adapt. Both in the deck builder and the game play. You can build a deck to be somewhat consistent in HC. At least in the sense the important parts will be drawn somewhat reliably. Some factions don't even need Witchers for it (SK, arguably MS/NG). What you can't do is guarantee you'll see every single card in your deck. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. Primarily because it forces players to adjust. That, by itself, is a skill.

Yeah, I've lost my share of games in HC due to poor draws. In hindsight, in many of those games I could have done something differently to overcome that disadvantage. Find some points, somehow, someway to turn the loss the other way. Sometimes you just get screwed. I don't see how this was any different for most of Gwent.

The argument started from the point above that said HC is more consistent due to the new mulligan system and more card draws, but it is the exact opposite since your hand is subject to more draw RNG. Old gwent had a fixed number of mulligans and less draws in later rounds at the same time a deck was able to thin down to a few cards due to tutors that drew specific cards. That makes old Gwent more consistent than HC.

I don't see what you are saying is in anyway relevant. Not sure what you mean by "too consistent." Old gwent had RNG. I mean every game has it to a certain extent. It's just RNG in old gwent was manageable and not game deciding like HC.

 

[partci]

... If you're asking what less consistency adds... Well, it makes you think and adapt...

Nope. It makes me rage and hit the big red X top right of the screen.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

The argument started from the point above that said HC is more consistent due to the new mulligan system and more card draws, but it is the exact opposite since your hand is subject to more draw RNG. Old gwent had a fixed number of mulligans and less draws in later rounds at the same time a deck was able to thin down to a few cards due to tutors that drew specific cards. That makes old Gwent more consistent than HC.

Old Gwent had less card draws but more mulligans. The consistency difference is probably more related to blacklisting. I do think there is a valid argument for bringing back blacklisting. Likewise, there is a valid argument for questioning why it was removed to begin with.

The relevance is to point out the game probably needs to strike a reasonable balance between reliability and RNG. Tutors need to exist but must be kept in check. Stuff like blacklisting is a great concept because not only does it add reliability but also adds to the skill gap. Good players mulligan well. Bad players don't. Whether it be what they mulligan or when they do it. Likewise, I really think every leader needs at least 3 mulligans. Any less, barring SK "I can thin my entire deck because I'm the golden child faction", creates too much inconsistency. Adjust the leader abilities with 3+ in mind.

Old Gwent, if it's to mean Midwinter, failed at keeping tutors in check. It created too much consistency. Now everyone draws everything. There is no adjustment beyond people making misplays and losing the game. Adjusting to a dynamic consistency against different MU's, board states, etc. takes a great deal of skill. In that sense I think the skill gap in HC is huge compared to Midwinter.

Again, room for improvement....

 

[partci]

... Old Gwent, if it's to mean Midwinter, failed at keeping tutors in check. It created too much consistency. Now everyone draws everything. There is no adjustment beyond people making misplays and losing the game. Adjusting to a dynamic consistency against different MU's, board states, etc. takes a great deal of skill. In that sense I think the skill gap in HC is huge compared to Midwinter...

"Great deal of skill", sure, but mixed with greater deal of RNG (with the draws). Which just kills my enthusiasm.

Even though CDPR went way overboard with Tutors in Gwent during the MWF days, remember that we had Tutors before, and Tutors with different and interesting mechanics mechanics. Remember old Daerlans and Shieldmaidens, for example? They had this in the game and they stripped it for vanilla "pull the other copies" and added "instantly pull special/alchemy/whatever card x off of your deck" to each and every Tutor. That's the thing that made them an instant eye-roller when introduced.

And still, than you were still draw and mulligan dependant. Not to the HC extreme, but still draw/mulligan dependant (card x is just at the bottom of your deck and you can't pull it with nothing).

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Even though CDPR went way overboard with Tutors in Gwent during the MWF days, remember that we had Tutors before, and Tutors with different and interesting mechanics mechanics. Remember old Daerlans and Shieldmaidens, for example?

If memory serves the original Shieldmaidens were broken. I can't remember the exact mechanic beyond "pull all 3 if you hit damaged units" but the body with the damage was waaaay over-tuned for a bronze. I can't recall what Daerlans did since I've played so many iterations of this game I cannot tell my ass from my forehead at this point .

And still, than you were still draw and mulligan dependant. Not to the HC extreme, but still draw/mulligan dependant (card x is just at the bottom of your deck and you can't pull it with nothing).

Well, most of the problem with HC is probably, once again, the card balance. I don't know if they need more people or what (probably). There are quite a few broken cards. Almost every viable deck is abusing broken cards. Cards that completely ruin your life if they manage to achieve optimal value. If this was not the case failing to draw your own broken cards might be a bit more... manageable. Unfortunately, it's not. So here is to hoping they manage to fix some of this stuff.

 

[flyhy]

Old Gwent had less card draws but more mulligans. The consistency difference is probably more related to blacklisting. I do think there is a valid argument for bringing back blacklisting. Likewise, there is a valid argument for questioning why it was removed to begin with.

The relevance is to point out the game probably needs to strike a reasonable balance between reliability and RNG. Tutors need to exist but must be kept in check. Stuff like blacklisting is a great concept because not only does it add reliability but also adds to the skill gap. Good players mulligan well. Bad players don't. Whether it be what they mulligan or when they do it. Likewise, I really think every leader needs at least 3 mulligans. Any less, barring SK "I can thin my entire deck because I'm the golden child faction", creates too much inconsistency. Adjust the leader abilities with 3+ in mind.

Old Gwent, if it's to mean Midwinter, failed at keeping tutors in check. It created too much consistency. Now everyone draws everything. There is no adjustment beyond people making misplays and losing the game. Adjusting to a dynamic consistency against different MU's, board states, etc. takes a great deal of skill. In that sense I think the skill gap in HC is huge compared to Midwinter.

Again, room for improvement....

I meant old gwent as pre mid winter but in terms of mulligan and tutors, it makes no difference.

Nope. Consistency difference is more related to card designs and in this case, it is the ability to tutor. Draw RNG exists in all card games but old gwent was less dependent on it. Mulligan is a RNG feature which doesn't increase consistency on it's own. And there's no such thing as "too consistent." It is either consistent/less RNG dependent or inconsistent/more RNG dependent. Or you meant tutors were too op? Well that sounds like a balance issue rather than a consistent vs RNG thing.

Also nope. In a heavily RNG dependent game like HC, skill is less effective since RNG is a deciding factor.

Now let me explain what I mean by draw RNG being a game deciding factor in HC.

Let's say you and your opponent both have 5 mulligans to start. Your opponent has a good hand that doesn't need any mulligan so he got 5 mulligan carryovers for later rounds. You however have 3 witchers and roach which needs 3 mulligans to fix and that leaves you 2 mulligan carryovers. A good starting hand has been always preferred in any card game but HC punishes a player for having a bad hand a lot more than old gwent ever did. If the mulligan is fixed like old gwent, your opponent won't be rewarded for having a good hand since both of you will get 2 mulligans total in later rounds. In short, draw RNG in HC affects the outcome of a game a lot more thus less consistent.