Will CDPR ever respond to lack of RPG Mechanics and lack of choices?

[moonknightgog]

Most of the people upset wanted something different from the game

Most of the people wanted what CDPR advertized. Next Gen open world and a role playing game where choices have deep consequences.

That doesn't make it a bad game.

Really? A game with awful looter shooter itemization, no C&C and linear quest design except for a handful of quests, broken stealth mechanics, AI worse than industry standards of 2 decades ago, dialogues choices worse than Fallout 4, no character reflection, and most of the interactivity with the world that happens behind menus, is not a bad game?

Every aspect of this game is underdeveloped or straight out badly designed You can like it, but it's objectively mediocre. Cyberpunk 2077 is the Dragon Age 2 of this decade.

 

[ArgoZinzu]

This is an example of the false world some who don't like the game are living in. Its not the graphics driving the enjoyment of the game, if that were the case the graphical glitches would be ruining it. The reality is, its actually a very good game -bugs. Most of the people upset wanted something different from the game. That doesn't make it a bad game. Some people think the game could be better. That doesn't make it a bad game either.

Expecting most people to hate something good, just because of antihype, simply isn't likely. You can get some % of people to hate pizza by talking to them about the business, or how its made, or what the pizza could have been. But most people will taste the pizza and simply decide if they like it or not.

Post automatically merged: Jan 22, 2021

dialog means something, it does not always matter, but thats basically no big rpg ever. Missions are not extremely limited in their execution, in fact there is generally more variation in how to execute missions in this game as compared to many others.

ill give go Exp. of dialog dont matter Evelyn sak you to betray Dex You dont get even a chance to you can only out her and that dont do much at all.
Yes you can chose diffent way to approach but the end result is always the same. You can just peaceful your way through or bribe people. they dont give many chioces at all. you may think there is but its just false pretense

 

[GrimReaper801]

dialogues choices worse than Fallout 4,

Oh c'mon that part just isn't true.

I mean.

That's just one example of FO4's bad writing. There are, sadly, a lot more. There is a lot of valid criticisms but saying FO4 had better dialogue choices... now that's just false.

 

[moonknightgog]

Oh c'mon that part just isn't true.

I mean.

View attachment 11151407

That's just one example of FO4's bad writing. There are, sadly, a lot more. There is a lot of valid criticisms but saying FO4 had better dialogue choices... now that's just false.

At least there are 4 choices. At times in Cyberpunk you have only 1. Or you have multiple choices, but only one line pushes dialogue forward (yellow), and the rest are only further infos (blue). Like, what is even the point.

 

[GrimReaper801]

At least there are 4 choices. At times in Cyberpunk you have only 1. Like, what is even the point.

Oh c'mon, that's just not true. Most conversations, as in 99.9% of them, have 2+ choices whenever dialogue choices are offered. Note that I am not saying they are impactful or meaningful in any way but if the number of dialogue choices is what you want to argue about, then you are objectively wrong.

And please, look at that picture again. 4 choices, sure, but 3 of them are exactly the same and I mean EXACTLY the same, they end the conversation.

I'm all for criticism but it, at least, has to be fair and true.

 

[Kadayi]

I'm all for criticism but it, at least, has to be fair and true.

You expect too much of people. Honestly the hyperbole of negativity around this game belies belief at times. I just don't get the impression that the people shouting the loudest about how ostensively terrible it is (ad infinitum), have really spent that all that much time playing and exploring the world, the systems and the missions before reaching for the torches and pitchfork to denounce it.

The game certainly has issues in terms of bugs (of which the AI is one according to the devs), but there's a real failure to acknowledge that the game affords you a lot of freedom of approach when it comes to gameplay, and albeit some dialogues are about exposition, others do actually result in choices, though it might not necessarily be all that obvious at the time.

 

[moonknightgog]

but there's a real failure to acknowledge that the game affords you a lot of freedom of approach when it comes to gameplay

That is not true, the level design is very good for the most part, that is acknowledged. But it's also inconsistent. There are quests were the objectives are too specific and that results in a limitation about freedom of approach. Like, when a quest asks you to speak to a person to enter a room, not acknowledging the players action of entering that room without speaking with that person, failing to trigger the next quest objective.

Or stuff like this.

So even the freedom is underdeveloped.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Most of the people wanted what CDPR advertized. Next Gen open world and a role playing game where choices have deep consequences.



Really? A game with awful looter shooter itemization, no C&C and linear quest design except for a handful of quests, broken stealth mechanics, AI worse than industry standards of 2 decades ago, dialogues choices worse than Fallout 4, no character reflection, and most of the interactivity with the world that happens behind menus, is not a bad game?

Every aspect of this game is underdeveloped or straight out badly designed You can like it, but it's objectively mediocre. Cyberpunk 2077 is the Dragon Age 2 of this decade.

most people barely interacted with the deep dive promises. Most people have different concepts of what open world or rpg even means. The fact is most people who played the game(pc) had positive reviews. Most people played the game for 35+ hours. All the metrics show that for most people the game was decent.

you cannot be objectively _______ insert something subjective. Mediocre is not an objective quality. Its relative and ill defined.

Everything you said there is subjective;

linear quests: its objectively non linear. you can literally do the quests out of linear order, the vast majority. This means you find it is not nonlinear enough, which is a subjective quality

awful looter shooter itemization: awful is subjective, whether looter shooter itemization is bad is subjective. what a looter shooter is, is poorly defined

broken stealth mechanics: broken is ill defined. Whether stealth mechanics are bad or not is subjective

Ai worse than industry standards: industry standards for Ai is poorly defined. "AI" varies from genre to genre and game to game wildly. Its also subjective how much AI matters for "good" game.


the point is your opinions are valid, thats how you feel about it, but thats not an objective truth. Its subjective. And by the objective metrics, and statistics most people have a positive experience with the game. Most people spend significant time with the game.

Expecting most people to dislike a game they like, because of outside reasons is unlikely. Your opinions are not as commonly held as you think they are. And they are not objective.

 

[KunoichiRider]

Dude... haven’t you heard this game is a 9/10 on PC?

A lot people on this forum are saying this game is fantastic and that CDPR did an amazing job

Why make good games with complex mechanics when you can take crap and sell it to people to enjoy?


You need to study a little more before post things... RPG is not about that thing called “immersion”... it is about ray-tracing dude

When I used to play D&D, Cyberpunk, Vampire, I remember rolling the D20 to see how perfect my reflection would look like

Immersion... pfff

Your sarcasm saved my day.

Post automatically merged: Jan 22, 2021

Not at all indeed, but expecting a Larian Studios experience out of Cyberpunk is far fetched isn't it?

No, I did not think of it. But now that you raised it. It would have been a wonderful and brilliant idea

 

[PhoenixDown95]

Probably not, they already mentioned that they are happy with PC release and only going to fix bugs on console release.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

ill give go Exp. of dialog dont matter Evelyn sak you to betray Dex You dont get even a chance to you can only out her and that dont do much at all.
Yes you can chose diffent way to approach but the end result is always the same. You can just peaceful your way through or bribe people. they dont give many chioces at all. you may think there is but its just false pretense

giving one example does not illustrate the nature of the game. You also evaluate only the end result. Results are different. You hear different dialog and gain different understandings/relationships with the characters. You also are writing V's story and perspective. From an RP and story perspective this changes the story.

"I never trusted that shady chick Evelyn" versus, "something about Evelyn made me feel like she was on my side" Is a signifigant change in perspective and motivation for V. You are not looking at results in a role playing way, you are looking at it in a game strategy way. What/How much new content does this unlock. as opposed to how does this change the story of V/cyberpunk. By your standard, having 4 additional hidden options marked A. B. C. D. that randomly make drastic changes to the main plotline is a good RPG element.

 

[exxxed]

Your sarcasm saved my day.

Post automatically merged: Jan 22, 2021

No, I did not think of it. But now that you raised it. It would have been a wonderful and brilliant idea

Agreed, that's why I'm hopeful for the future, what they achieved with Jali (I'm not going to stop singing it's praise) is absolutely outstanding, for an AI animation algorithm to rival motion capture it's out of this world for me. Hence why I believe we're closer than we thing to a true open ended cinematic RPG.

Although if anyone is willing to try anything similar ever again with the entire outrage fiasco surrounding mainstream media of all forms is another story.

I think the big boys are just going to play it safe from here on.

That's why I think it's worth fighting for CDPR, Larian, Obsidian (can't wait to see their take on open world first person RPG) etc.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

You expect too much of people. Honestly the hyperbole of negativity around this game belies belief at times. I just don't get the impression that the people shouting the loudest about how ostensively terrible it is (ad infinitum), have really spent that all that much time playing and exploring the world, the systems and the missions before reaching for the torches and pitchfork to denounce it.

The game certainly has issues in terms of bugs (of which the AI is one according to the devs), but there's a real failure to acknowledge that the game affords you a lot of freedom of approach when it comes to gameplay, and albeit some dialogues are about exposition, others do actually result in choices, though it might not necessarily be all that obvious at the time.

in an RPG exposition is content, I am amazed that this is lost on people.

the other interesting thing is, so many people mad at the videos, and marketing choices, and misrepresentation, do the exact same thing with their own viewpoints and perspectives. Hyperbole, misrepresentation, emotional appeals, manipulation to increase engagement and further their goals.

Its almost as if these are the most common and effective ways of promoting your ideas.

 

[exxxed]

Or stuff like this.

So even the freedom is underdeveloped.

That's clearly a bug, there's multiple ways of approaching that mission.

Cyberpunk 2077 Gimme Danger Guide - All Infiltration Options, Best Approach

If you're struggling to infiltrate the Arasaka facility in Cyberpunk 2077's Gimme Danger quest, check out our guide.

www.thegamer.com

 

[Kadayi]

That is not true, the level design is very good for the most part, that is acknowledged. But it's also inconsistent. There are quests were the objectives are too specific and that results in a limitation about freedom of approach. Like, when a quest asks you to speak to a person to enter a room, not acknowledging the players action of entering that room without speaking with that person, failing to trigger the next quest objective.

Please, there are myriad ways to break games, but that doesn't necessarily make them 'bad' least of all when it's deliberately done for internet points just to go 'look! look! Look how terrible this is! Oh the humanity!'.

Because most people don't play games to break them like a toy, they play them to enjoy them as an experience.

Within a few days of release, people were posting up exploit clips on YT and the like, and we've had plenty of 'look how dumb the in-game AI is' ones as well. Certainly, there's an audience for that sort of thing, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

If the mission brief is to speak to A, but you instead decided to go to C go directly to C do not speak to A and do not enter B beforehand and receive a delicious cake, whose fault is that?

 

[B4R0N_D3K0]

If the mission brief is to speak to A, but you instead decided to go to C go directly to C do not speak to A and do not enter B beforehand and receive a delicious cake, whose fault is that?

Hmmm... have you ever played RPGs? You know... role play the game in the way you want?

It is amazing to not follow what the game want you to do and see the consequences of that

There’s a nice game I recommend. It’s called the Witcher 3. Take a look

There a section with 3 witches in the woods... you will see what happens if you mess wifh the talk to A then B then C

it was made for once an amazing company called CDPR

Unfortunately, today they make linear. games

 

[moonknightgog]

Please, there are myriad ways to break games, but that doesn't necessarily make them 'bad' least of all when it's deliberately done for internet points just to go 'look! look! Look how terrible this is! Oh the humanity!'.

Because most people don't play games to break them like a toy, they play them to enjoy them as an experience.

Within a few days of release, people were posting up exploit clips on YT and the like, and we've had plenty of 'look how dumb the in-game AI is' ones as well. Certainly, there's an audience for that sort of thing, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

If the mission brief is to speak to A, but you instead decided to go to C go directly to C do not speak to A and do not enter B beforehand and receive a delicious cake, whose fault is that?

If you say that the game allows for freedom of approach when it comes to quest design/level design, and then the game fails to acknowledge player agency, done using the tools that the game itself offers you, then it is objectively bad. And you can't possibly be serious when you say that playing the game using the possibilities offered by char skills and level design is "deliberately breaking the game". This is a sorry excuse for what it is bad quest design.

If the mission brief is to speak to A, but you instead decided to go to C go directly to C do not speak to A and do not enter B beforehand and receive a delicious cake, whose fault is that?

It's the fault of the game. I'm playing a supposed RPG that offers a variety of playstyles, so I don't have to follow that disgusting dot on the minimap to play the game. It's not supposed to be a linear game. Expecially because I don't want to play with a text on screen that tells me exactly what to do all the time.

If I can go directly to C, the game HAS to acknowledge player's agency.

Again, it's awful quest design.

 

[Hayte]

The more freedom the player has to be their own agent in interactive story telling, the more generic the story has to be. You simply cannot account for all the things a player may or may not do and create all possible eventualities. This is only possible in PnP because the story you tell and the world you create for it stays in your shared imagination. It never becomes a concrete thing you have to draw, model, build and animate.

Final Fantasy XV tried to do open ended interactive story telling in a videogame but Square ran into the same problem every developer will do. Ironically, FFXV's approach was a reaction to public criticism of XIII's linear story telling but ended up being XIII in reverse - XIII tightly controlled player agency until late in the game and opened up at Gran Pulse. XV was open ended from the start but to progress the story, it had to tightly controlled player agency from Altissia until the end. The open ended sections of both games don't have any impetus to drive the story towards a conclusion and they can't because it would require the player to go do specific things.

Noctis had to experience everything in the story in a specific order. There is no possibility to save Ignis from being blinded. His friend's disfigurement is a formative experience for Noctis - one that will inform his decision to return to Insomnia as an older man and pay back the sacrifices others made for him. The quiet moments by the campfire become something tragically beautiful, knowing as you do that this will be the last time the brothers will be together.

RPG has become this term that means different things to different people. The funny thing is that in Cyberpunk PnP "Never Fade Away" is an introductory campaign with preset characters and a well defined story arc. It is one of the quintessential Cyberpunk roleplaying experiences and it is a linear narrative experience. You can play it now with your friends and if you don't want to to experience it only in your collective imagination, thats fine because it is also faithfully recreated in Cyberpunk 2077.

There is scope for RPGs to be linear, narrative experiences with a DM with a plan - a story that you may never have been able to imagine yourself. There is also scope for the DM to let players become agents of chaos and fuck everything up. In PnP the only limit is your imagination and the co-operation of your friends.

In videogames, the developer is the DM and they cannot create all story variations for all people at the outset. So I'll settle for well crafted linear narrative experiences such as the story arc from The Information to Pyramid Song - a story arc that I never imagined would get me emotional in the way that it did. I'd rather experience something like this in the medium of videogames than be given an open ended story designed so it can be broken by players. People talk about choice and consequence but a story designed this way with blank slate characters that could just as well be VARs may have the former, but it can't have the latter.

 

[MagnarofThenn]

The game has been released. They can fix bugs and make some small changes, but anybody expecting major overhauls are fooling themselves.
It's one thing if they were still a private company. They are now publicly traded, which means the shareholders have to approve things and no way would they approve any major expenditures.

 

[Lantea]

Don't count on it; they are still continuing to lie about the cut content and about how the game was rushed to release; at this point the leadership at CDPR has lost all credibility;

Nothing will change until the management is willing to be transparent answer all questions and stop the constant lies; a good first step would be to hold a detailed on camera interview with a reputable game journalist that would be fully open with no dodging and all questions answered. Its never going to happen, because CDPR has shown they are no better then the other AAA studios, but that is the only way to salvage any reputation they might still cling to imo.