Worried about no stealth

[azriel77]

Worried about no stealth

Read this translation of a Russian interview about the witcher 3 on reddit. This part caught my eye.

KM - Stealth elements?

MP - No, we are not a big fans of it. And it not fits with our game.

I know this is for the witcher 3 and not cyberpunk. However, they are the same company and ideologies can leak to other games. I really hope there is stealth mechanics involved. Sneaking into places IS FUN. However, the witcher 2 mechanics sucked really bad. Need something like splinter cell:chaos theory hiding in shadows (none of that stupid hiding behind convenient boxes like all modern games do), have some cool cyberpunk stuff. Clocking device, holographic disguise..etc.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

As you pointed out, TW3 and CP2077 are two very different animals.

Geralt is not the stealthy type. He also doesn't have a gun and there will be loads in 2077. I am 99.99% sure that there will be some form of stealth in 2077. You have nothing to worry about.

 

[braindancer12]

I know this is for the witcher 3 and not cyberpunk..

you already said it.....

 

[Sydanyo]

Well, Cyberpunk 2020 wasn't really a stealth RPG. When your attitude is to be as flashy as possible, and when you're trying to impress even yourself with your combat moves, it's not really fitting to skulk in the shadows.

Having said that, there are camo suits and shit like that in Cyberpunk 2020, so I'm sure it's possible there's some form of sneaking in this game. Just don't expect Predator cloaking in every store.

 

[Direwolf029]

I've always thought of stealth as being a big part of cyberpunk (the genre, not the rpg), but maybe that comes from having played too much Deus Ex.

 

[schiff]

I've always thought of stealth as being a big part of cyberpunk (the genre, not the rpg), but maybe that comes from having played too much Deus Ex.

It's mostly because stealth became a hybrid genre in time. Most of nowadays stealth games are action games with sneaking elements in them, exception made for stuff like Soma or whatever.

 

[emicrania]

i do not mind to have open solution for missions and personal scheming,but IMHO the 2 biggest flaws of DEHR were that you get MORE rewarded if you sneak up instead of taking direct action and the lack of fluidity in movements and interaction with your (amazing) surroundings.

 

[schiff]

There's a lot to say on stealth and deus ex but if i remember correctly some dev implied they care about the action part

 

[presstheeject]

Well, Cyberpunk 2020 wasn't really a stealth RPG. When your attitude is to be as flashy as possible, and when you're trying to impress even yourself with your combat moves, it's not really fitting to skulk in the shadows.:

I would like to point out that there's a lot of style in stealing some shit from a corporation without them knowing you were even there, and then sell it and be like "Yeah, the owners don't even know that they're missing it yet".

 

[Sydanyo]

I would like to point out that there's a lot of style in stealing some shit from a corporation without them knowing you were even there, and then sell it and be like "Yeah, the owners don't even know that they're missing it yet".

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I have to agree with jaworowskii too. 2020 was always very open to various approaches. I admit that most games and players I associated with were the 'kick in the door' types, but stealth had a place.

 

[Sydanyo]

I have to agree with jaworowskii too. 2020 was always very open to various approaches. I admit that most games and players I associated with were the 'kick in the door' types, but stealth had a place.

I wasn't disagreeing with that there'd be a "place" for stealth, or that situations have a stealth approach. Obviously, they do. I was (pre-emptively) disagreeing with the notion that Cyberpunk 2020 would be more of a sneaking around stealthily -type of game than it would be a game where you go balls to the wall and act as flashy as possible, and also with the notion that sneaking around without anyone knowing what you've done is somehow stylish (hence the pre-emptive disagreement.)

I'm trying to say that... There are plenty of games where you're all ninja and shit, sneak around in the shadows in your matte black jumpsuit, assassinate from afar with your sniper rifle, and all that jazz, but I've personally never seen Cyberpunk 2020 convey that message in the books. Quite the contrary. Everything everywhere screams attitude, flashiness and reckless abandon.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I wasn't disagreeing with that there'd be a "place" for stealth, or that situations have a stealth approach. Obviously, they do. I was (pre-emptively) disagreeing with the notion that Cyberpunk 2020 would be more of a sneaking around stealthily -type of game than it would be a game where you go balls to the wall and act as flashy as possible, and also with the notion that sneaking around without anyone knowing what you've done is somehow stylish (hence the pre-emptive disagreement.)

Ahhh...

In that case, point taken.

I am sure I will have a stealth character, but in 2020 I must admit that my favourite weapon was C6, so it's not as if I was very 'subtle'.

 

[thewarsend]

Ahhh...

In that case, point taken.

I am sure I will have a stealth character, but in 2020 I must admit that my favorite weapon was C6, so it's not as if I was very 'subtle'.

Like i always say, "To hell with subtlety, lets kill them all and get the job done."

I know i probably never said that, but i should have.. That sounds kinda good.. Remember when i said "I really don't like killing people" and you said "You always say lets kill them all" but then i said "I don't think these gang members are human anymore." That was some good stuff too.. I wish we wrote at least some of the story down.

 

[JeromAsdert]

and also with the notion that sneaking around without anyone knowing what you've done is somehow stylish (hence the pre-emptive disagreement.)
.

I politely disagree *Fanboyism mode on* Garrett has plenty of style and you can't deny it *Fanboyism mode off* While I find it extremely stylish I tend to agree that Cyberpunk 2077 does not exist in the same plain as games (Theif, Hitman, Dishonored) that make stealth (Ghosting in particular) elegant and stylish.

 

[Sydanyo]

I politely disagree *Fanboyism mode on* Garrett has plenty of style and you can't deny it *Fanboyism mode off* While I find it extremely stylish I tend to agree that Cyberpunk 2077 does not exist in the same plain as games (Theif, Hitman, Dishonored) that make stealth (Ghosting in particular) elegant and stylish.

Well, here we can use the age old adage and question: if a tree falls and nobody hears it, does it make a sound? Is what you do really stylish if nobody sees you doing it? Or at the very least, if there's nobody left to tell the tale.

It may seem stylish to you personally, as the player, but I think that's the PoV of a gamer behind a computer or a console playing a single player game. I'm talking about living in an RPG world, embodying a character in a world where you interact with people. And no, I don't mean "people" as in other gamers in an MMO. I'm talking about all the people living in Night City. In an RPG - the real kind, where you sit at a table, scribble down numbers with a pen and roll dice, not a faux RPG on a computer or a console - the people are quite real. I'm talking about what those people consider stylish, and what you would - as that character - consider those people to consider stylish.

If someone paints a painting and says it's art, but nobody ever sees it, is it really art?

 

[JeromAsdert]

Tree makes a sound even if there is nobody there to hear it. Same answer about the art.

The NPC would respond to finding a key person dead/secret corporate folder missing while nobody knows how it happened.

Other players would not find it stylish whether you are a martial artist in game and throw some dice to "kick ass" or if you are sneaky character and throw some dice to "sneak" or a net runner and throw some dice to "hack".

What other players find stylish is the flavor text, "Jack sparrow carwheeled behind the desk just the guard was turning his head and holds his breath as he mentally counts the guards steps. As the guard walks away he informs his team over the radio that he is in."

 

[Sydanyo]

Tree makes a sound even if there is nobody there to hear it. Same answer about the art.

I disagree about the art part, and as far as sound goes, if the generated sound waves are never observed, can you be sure they were ever there? After all, on the quantum level, observation alters reality (check out the double-slit experiment.) So, we're in disagreement.

Other players would not find it stylish whether you are a martial artist in game and throw some dice to "kick ass" or if you are sneaky character and throw some dice to "sneak" or a net runner and throw some dice to "hack".

What other players find stylish is the flavor text, "Jack sparrow carwheeled behind the desk just the guard was turning his head and holds his breath as he mentally counts the guards steps. As the guard walks away he informs his team over the radio that he is in."

Not other players, other people. What other players think is metagaming, what you think their characters as well as all the other people, the actual, real people in the very real world you're now inhabiting, is what matters. Also, you don't generally refer to your character in the third person and describe what he does like a narrator. Well, not in our games, anyway. It would be more like "I wait until the guard turns his head, and then cartwheel behind the table." To which the GM might go "OK, roll a die." So, the style I'm talking about has very little to do with impressing the few guys around a table you're playing with.

 

[JeromAsdert]

Let's separate Art and science for a second. If a person creates a work of art therefor at least one person is aware of that work of art and hence it is work of art.

While science is concerned you are mixing a few things up. 1) Observation can changes the outcome 2) Unpredictability of the result. In case of double-slit experiment or any other quantum mechanic experiment We KNOW what the out come is going to be, we have formulated it. On top of that we can say that if observer is present we will have different yet predictable outcome. The idea that somehow a result of tree falling would stop generating sound may it be acting as particle or wave is somewhat in contradiction of thermodynamics which still work fine with quantum physics. It's like saying that Big Bang didn't happened just because there were nobody there to witness it.

Yet you completely ignore the point where I talk about NPC response. A person who can hack ,steal and distribute database from Megacorp is a legend more so if nobody knows who he is or how he have done it.

 

[Sydanyo]

If a person creates a work of art therefor at least one person is aware of that work of art and hence it is work of art.

A person who can hack ,steal and distribute database from Megacorp is a legend more so if nobody knows who he is or how he have done it.

These are the points I disagree with. I didn't ignore anything. I just don't think you're right. Your definition and understanding of art is different than mine, and so is your definition and understanding what in the confines of Cyberpunk 2020 constitutes style. I don't consider someone being a "legend" to be the same as someone having style, nor do I think it would make a person stylish, or even legendary in this case, if nobody knew who he was.

In these cases we'll just have to agree to disagree.

While science is concerned you are mixing a few things up. 1) Observation can changes the outcome 2) Unpredictability of the result. In case of double-slit experiment or any other quantum mechanic experiment We KNOW what the out come is going to be, we have formulated it. On top of that we can say that if observer is present we will have different yet predictable outcome. The idea that somehow a result of tree falling would stop generating sound may it be acting as particle or wave is somewhat in contradiction of thermodynamics which still work fine with quantum physics. It's like saying that Big Bang didn't happened just because there were nobody there to witness it.

In the case of the double-slit experiment, the outcome is exactly unpredictable, not predictable. It is the fact that particles, when fired individually, do not act as particles, but as part of a wave, that is the wholly unpredictable result of that experiment. Sure it's predictable now, after we've done the experiment, and we know this new aspect of quantum physics, but when it was done, it didn't have at all the predicted result.

We also know thanks to quantum physics, that existing in two places at the same time is possible. So is teleportation. We also know that observation affects reality. Therefore, I don't find it at all odd that there would be a tree falling making no noise at all. Extremely improbable, sure, but not odd or impossible.

In any case, if you read the Cyberpunk 2020 material thoroughly, I'm sure you'll find that this world, and being a cyberpunk, is all about attitude, doing flashy and outrageous things, breaking conventions, not being mainstream, and so on. Some stealthy ninja guy stealthing around stealthily with his stealth weapons and stealth skills stealthing people's asses off all stealthlike is so conventional and mainstream. It's not punk.