They have other cards to compensate for the lack of removal... it's just not a control faction.Yenn Invo must be Monster card, since they have no removals [only cripple Imlerith wrath]
Thrive?
Monsters should be more DD faction as they are Monsters, but in practice they all are like insects, lowest damage card pool among factions. Eredin ( - You Shall Perish, Worm) sorry but the only worm faction is MO.
Okay, so you really think it's an OP card. I still don't understand how you can be so sure about that. Apparently you don't play NG yourself, because you stated in a previous thread that you can see it with your own eyes without having to play the faction. If you can do that without under- or overestimating certain mechanics then that's great, I could NEVER do that without playing those decks myself. Fine, I'd LOVE to give every faction a card like Yenvo. I think it's only then that people will realize the card is not at all what they thought it was.
Personally I'd prefer to re-enable my leader ability 2 times or play my strongest cards 3 times. You would really rather have Yen then use leader three times?I'd LOVE to have one.
And NR should have more damage too, because in Witcher, "there's never a day without one of the realms starting a war with another." And MO too, "because they're monsters". Do you see the problem? Devs had to make some decisions about faction identities, because they can't all be the same. And if you want Yenvo so badly, why do you even bother with MO? Why not try NG or other control factions like SY or SK?Thrive?
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At least don't completely ignore that they're Orders ^^
Sure, it's not unstoppable, that's true. But Damien has a 6 body so he isn't trivial to remove and I rarely see him come down without a defender. Also you better banish him so he doesn't come back next round. Locking him kind of works, but a lot of NG decks I see have a least some purify and even if they haven't they might be lucky and copy one of yours. And this is just one of the crazy cards you have to deal with.
I'm not saying that's it's crazy OP just that if I had the choice I'd rather get one of the other crazy abilites that NG has. I don't think people fully comprehend how strong NG is overall. If they nerf SY into oblivion (like they did with ST) without touching NG I'm fully pepared to kneel before the Emperor because they will just dominate everything.
Yenvo is OP because it's too good within the faction. It can be a completely unconditional tall removal OR it can be "steal best card and tutor it next turn with Joachim while proccing all assimilate engines". This is too much utility for 9p. "A card like Yenvo" for ST, for example, would be something like "Remove any card from opponent's side of the board OR spawn an elven deadeye on opponent's side of the board, then spawn any card from your starting deck on top of your deck." Would I use the anti-tempo ability a lot? Hmm, not sure. Would this card be in every goddamn ST deck just based on removal ability ALONE for 9p? Hell yeah it would.
The" ST version" doesn't make sense to me, that's a completely different card and can't be compared to Yen's role in NG. It's unconditional removal, yeah, but don't forget you will draw the card no matter what. Sometimes it's a nice card, very often it isn't, and that's a fact. Losing a mulligan or two is massive. Joachim+Yenvo is 19 provisions, so it's fairly obvious that this combo should be worth something. But as you can probably see, removing something tall like Goliath or Yghern with Invo and playing the card with Joachim is obviously a bad idea as you will be tall punished to death. Finding good targets isn't as easy as you might think.
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How does Damien come back? Which card can reliably do this except Assire (a combination I haven't seen even a single time in my whole life so far)? Don't forget that he's row-locked. Guerilla Tactics absolutely laughs at him. And locking him is pretty safe, I haven't encountered a single purify in NG for a very long time. Of course he's a "crazy" card if you don't deal with him, but please have a look at your own deck and see what your high-end cards play for.
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I'm not a specialist when it comes to NG, maybe I'm mistaken when it comes to resurecting Damien. A lot of the decks seem to run cook guy, you know the one that can poison or purify. I have also encountered one that purified a whole row, thought I think that was only one time.
When it comes to "crazy cards" though, there is only one faction that has about the same amount and that is SY. That's why the two are dominating the meta in the higher ranks.
Cupbearer used to be staple, but I haven't seen him for quite a while now... he's probably the most common purifier you'll see. I don't know, MO with Fleders, Unseen Elder, She Who Knows or Koshcheys are equally bonkers if they don't get answered asap. And I don't even want to start with SK Preachers or NR Alumni. NG is pretty viable at the moment because of Assimilate and this archetype capitalizes on strong cards in the opponent's deck. If there weren't so many op cards around at the moment, Assimilate could go and cry lol. I don't think NG has the craziest cards, but they do support a specific deck type (too) well.
Oh, it compares pretty well I would say. What wouldn't make sense is to give literal copy of Yenvo to ST, because ST receives no assimilate benefits from playing the opponent's cards (though even then I would probably take it at 9p, lmao). We could make it "more balanced," by restricting the card spawning to cards already on the board, maybe (as if the devs would ever give ST something like that). "Losing a mulligan is massive" is fast becoming the new "NG has weak bronzes." No, it's not "no matter what." You don't draw it if used in R3. Removing Goliath or Yghern and playing them is not very wise normally, except devotion MO has no tall removal, so your 19p combo just played for a cool 30 in two turns, plus you removed an Ozzy target. Removing Melusine prevents a 20+point revival later. Removing anything SK prevents that unit from being revived (at the terrible cost of losing a mulligan!). Removing and replaying any create and play or spawn and play cards double procs your assimilate engines on top of whatever point value you get out of the card itself. Stealing something like Simlas, though low tempo and situational, can potentially play for insane value if you use it to thin 2 diplomacies, especially if they hit on any create- or spawn- and play cards themselves. Defenders are very reusable as well. So there are targets, and as real as that struggle may be, this is just on the side of the unconditional tall punish. All for 9p.
Devo MO has no tall removal? How about Imlerith's Wrath? We can go on discussing how the Joachim target will most likely get wrecked by other factions, but this doesn't lead to anything productive. You want the card to be nerfed and I say NG has cards that are way more problematic. And I hope ST gets some bangers next time, those comparisons are getting boring. Just like the arguments that NG is more challenging to play than most other factions, that a mulligan is very important even to NG or the fact that your deck very often gets polluted by a tall unit you removed with Invocation are boring to you. If you really believe what you're saying is true, then it's fine by me. I don't understand your opinion, but that's what Forums are here for I guess.
Mostly against NG, after i play Defender, Yenn is already right after it. Of course there are hundreds of ways to steal Defender, so many NG cards need a nerf.
...Except only the part about the tall removal and banish is true in practice, and maybe the Simlas part is kinda true? Sometimes? But you actually play him with Coup de Grace or Terranova most of the time, and it has nothing to do with Invo. Invoing Simlas is a thing that happens exactly never, because when he hits the board, you're in no position to afford such a low-tempo play. Not to mention how you probably have already used/DMT'd one of the imperial diplomacies or have it in hand. Tempo argument is also true for all kinds of valuable cards, such as Whoreson Junior, Freakshow, Professor, Seltkirk etc. The only exceptions to this rule are bleed-on-even conditions and certain MO cards, and even then it's super situational.
Melusine can also be defeated with a 4p Squirrel...or Korathi. Just saying. I don't disagree that remove+banish at once is a bit too much. It is. And it is indeed bad for the game. But for some reason you repeatedly dismissed this argument back in KH discussions, so I have a good reason to question your honesty here and suspect plain' ol' NG hate.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, I'd like to remind you that Assimilate as a tag isn't even remotely viable, and even what few Assimilate engines we still see in meta derive most of their value from what they copy or help to copy. Good luck getting more than 6 points of boost per unit from Assimilate itself - which is a pitiful value to begin with, in a gamestate where Fleders, Piggies and Messengers exist. And you won't normally have many of said Assimilate engines either in the same round outside of mirrors, and you only have 4 to 5 in your deck in the first place. So...6x5, 30 points at best, assuming you have every Assimilate engine on-board (no shot you do, for a multitude of reasons) and somehow proc them 6 times. Which is the equivalent of one Fleder in a round long enough for this to happen.
But wait, there's more - because you can't play them simultaneously, Vigo, for example, can't benefit from the Braathens double proc from a previous turn, and very often you have to delay Terranova and Torturess plays, so they get even less Assimilate value.
p.s. Even "30 for 19 in two turns" is a pretty mediocre points evaluation nowadays, btw. Okay tempo, but pretty bad in terms of provisions-to-value ratio. But even the tempo isn't that great compared to Witches' Sabbath or Savolla+KoB or just a freaking Saskia.
If it is for you, then you're probably doing it wrong. I've definitely seen defenders snatched and reused "in practice." I've seen Fila (oh, but who uses Fila!!), Eithne, Gezras reused.
It's not for some reason, but a plainly stated one: Heatwave is neutral and available for everyone, while Yenvo enables only NG to either have "Devotion" heatwave, or two of them. No shortage of plain ol ng hate here, though, obviously.
Not sure why this bit is "most important" in the context of this thread, but yes, vanilla Assimilate is powercrept, which is why nobody's playing it. The "noveau" self-proccing/double-proccing Assimilate, though, is just fine, as evidence by the meta over the last six months and the fact that this set of cards is in every. single. ng deck. And regardless of how many procs it turns into "in practice," Yenvo does synergize with them.
"Freaking [13p] Saskia" weeps while dreaming about tempoing for 30 in 2 turns.
Oh, sure. Defenders. Except it's a forced move that defends (sorry) your important units and is still pretty awful in terms of tempo. A solid 7 for 9, plus whatever points advantage you get for using it instead of your normal card - which is unlikely to be much, considering the extreme polarization enabled by Calveit. Probably not even an advantage at all, as any defender-running deck that isn't Alumni or Vamps doesn't even care about targeting your units, so the defender does nothing.
Gezras is a valid example...kinda? Except not really, because who the hell seriously runs Gezras, and how much value do you really get from reusing him? 5 body + 5 assimilate (and I'm reaching here) + 8 from his ability. Because you'll only get to use him for 2 turns, and he won't get any melee row value, normally (that's assuming he even survives, because he's likely to be the best Heatwave target in that matchup). So...18 points overall. Even pulling a regular Illusionist into a Cat Witcher would result in 10 points under the same circumstances, so best case scenario, Invo adds like 8 value on top of removal that could be as well done for 6 or 8 provisions. So...6-7 removal value + 8 bonus replay points. Even counting the removal value twice - because it's more valuable - it's still just 20 net positive points for 9, and 20 is currently a normal 6p bronze engine value.
Eithne would have even worse point evaluation, btw.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Toxic card available to everyone is just six times more toxicity, not "balance". Sure, it is fair, in a way. Just not in a good way. More like in a way that makes it possible for any faction to be a gatekeeping bully.
Not for the reason you think, though, because I gave you math that already accounts for double procs. "Assimilate" is honestly a misnomer at this point. Viable iterations of this deck were viable because of its ability to copy broken bronzes (and now, golds) ad nauseam. Assimilate itself - double or not - still plays for pitiful points, as laid out above. And while Invo indeed synergises with it, the value that comes from this synergy is likely to be in a single digit. Often negative, because like discussed previously, most of the time you can't really steal what you'd like to steal.
Oh, she definitely doesn't. Saskia allows you to set up several engines on the same turn, so between her and other plays (assuming a movement deck and a generously low avg value of 6 per card played/summoned) it's 4+6+6+6+6+6 (34) tempo for 13+5+5+5 (28) provisions you actually play from hand by the end of turn 4, and it quickly gets out of control from there - exactly when it actually begins to matter - because it's rapidly set up movement engines we're talking about, and she might pull out more bronzes, still. While thinning your deck, leaving only the cards you actually want to play from hand there. Saskia allows you to have dedicated engine deck values while slamming enough raw points per turn to be mistaken for a freaking Lippy from afar.
But that comparison doesn't even make sense in the end...she's a round 1 card, where tempo actually matters. Invo + Joachim tempo just isn't really something you play r1, and can only be important during a bleed. R3 doesn't care how quickly you generate points, merely how many you have in total.
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My personal problem with the card is that a 9 provision card can get rid of any 13 provision unit. Not only that but you get to play it after that.
Every time i play against NG my defender gets "stolen" instantly. It's a snap answer, not even thinking about it. Other times my She Who Knows or Gerni. It's an absolute cheat. And to make things better, when i get my defender stolen, they play a Joachim and i have to kill a 15 point defender unless i have purify. Sorry but that's just not fair.
All factions have to include purify cards just to deal with the defender. Why should NG get a cheap workaround?
From what i see most people argue that they "rarely get good target cards and they mostly only use it to steal a very buffed low provision unit".
Ok, great. Then my suggestion is this: Make Invo an 8 provision card and only be able to steal units up to 8 provision. And yes, 8 provision is the magic nr because otherwise they get to steal your defenders and again, that's just unfair.
This way you can get good value out of the card by stealing let's say a 15 point Sea Jackal or Witch Apprentice or whatever, you get to play that card and you trigger assimilate for your units and it won't be auto include in all NG decks. It will find it's best value in assimilate decks but sure, you could run it anywhere.
Every time i play against NG my defender gets "stolen" instantly. It's a snap answer, not even thinking about it. Other times my She Who Knows or Gerni. It's an absolute cheat. And to make things better, when i get my defender stolen, they play a Joachim and i have to kill a 15 point defender unless i have purify. Sorry but that's just not fair.
All factions have to include purify cards just to deal with the defender. Why should NG get a cheap workaround?
From what i see most people argue that they "rarely get good target cards and they mostly only use it to steal a very buffed low provision unit".
Ok, great. Then my suggestion is this: Make Invo an 8 provision card and only be able to steal units up to 8 provision. And yes, 8 provision is the magic nr because otherwise they get to steal your defenders and again, that's just unfair.
This way you can get good value out of the card by stealing let's say a 15 point Sea Jackal or Witch Apprentice or whatever, you get to play that card and you trigger assimilate for your units and it won't be auto include in all NG decks. It will find it's best value in assimilate decks but sure, you could run it anywhere.
This doesn't balance anything at all, it just kills the card right away. Removing defenders is perfectly fine, you simply trade gold cards that cost 9 provisions. Joachim into defender then plays for 11 points plus Assimilate value if there are any engines around. The 15 pt defender then is a perfect target for Heatwave, Geralt, Bonhart, Imlerith's Wrath with Imlerith on the board, another Invo, Curse of Corruption, Vilgefortz. Alternatively you can still just purify it. Nothing crazy here.