licker;n10856601 said:
I understand much more than you think but it's pointless to go in on the wardancer argument when we already know it will be changed. The devs mentioned it by name twice..
I hope you people complaining understand that ST players are not dumb, if you kill the entire faction the game will lose a large chunk of players. When ST gets nerfed AGAIN and ridiculous things like NG handbuff, Henselt or SK carryover spam are allowed to remain I will be one of those leaving for good.
If you remove Wardancer then ST is finished. That's the problem. They have no tempo besides Cleaver. And you can time the pass perfectly before they drop their massive points.
There are decks that can go down 2 cards in round 1, bleed them in round 2, go into round 3 with 1 card down and still win. The easiest that comes to mind is consume.
Another one is NR that runs Villentretenmerth because it counters that round 3 Ciri drop.
So, once again, if you take out wardancer you might as well throw ST out as well. That's the hole the devs dug themselves into.
They can't just nerf 1 card they pretty much have to rework the entire faction.
There are decks that can go down 2 cards in round 1, bleed them in round 2, go into round 3 with 1 card down and still win. The easiest that comes to mind is consume.
Another one is NR that runs Villentretenmerth because it counters that round 3 Ciri drop.
So, once again, if you take out wardancer you might as well throw ST out as well. That's the hole the devs dug themselves into.
They can't just nerf 1 card they pretty much have to rework the entire faction.
Handbuff is the worse engine in the game, no tempo in the 1st. So, how is it going to win round 1? Brouver "shenanigans" is Leader and 2 Silvers at the very least for a max 26 point play that can easily be countered. People just don't want to look beyond the decks they see, not willing to change even 1 card in them. Besides that, people hate Brouver combo but Henselt's is fine? That's just plain hating.partci;n10869211 said:
partci Handbuff decks run Wardancers too. There really is no reason not to. Handbuff has plenty of free bronze slots, so you might as well run Wardancers in those slots since they're so good.
It's arguable if Wardancers "became" a problem or if they always were. The latter position is easy to believe. The former is based on the idea that the game has changed. In the past, drypassing round 1 was ill-advised since the chances of getting tempoed out were much lower. Today with factions playing 12-strength or stronger bronzes nonstop (Half-elf Hunter, Battering Ram, Viper Witchers) it's very easy to be tempoed out with a deck like Eredin. That makes it more dangerous to play round 1, which makes Wardancer more of a problem when they block a round 1 pass. I think both positions are defensible, but I think that even in the past, Wardancers were always strong, ST just lacked competitive cards to go with it.
Disagree in many ways. ST has plenty of tempo plays - Half-elf Hunter is an unconditional 12-strength bronze, Aelirenn is pretty easy to trigger as well. Most ST decks don't run engines, i.e. they're tempo decks, i.e. they must be able to keep up in tempo or the can't compete.
ST vs. consume the ST player should not pass round 1. Losing up two cards is pretty dangerous against that deck, winning on equal is much safer.
I don't see what Villentretenmerth has to do with Wardancers. And I think you grossly overrate Wardancers. If other decks can compete without them, why can't ST? It's got enough cards to have its own unique strategies, so if ST becomes fatally weakened (which I doubt) numbers can always be adjusted to bring it back into contention.
It's arguable if Wardancers "became" a problem or if they always were. The latter position is easy to believe. The former is based on the idea that the game has changed. In the past, drypassing round 1 was ill-advised since the chances of getting tempoed out were much lower. Today with factions playing 12-strength or stronger bronzes nonstop (Half-elf Hunter, Battering Ram, Viper Witchers) it's very easy to be tempoed out with a deck like Eredin. That makes it more dangerous to play round 1, which makes Wardancer more of a problem when they block a round 1 pass. I think both positions are defensible, but I think that even in the past, Wardancers were always strong, ST just lacked competitive cards to go with it.
VladAtheris;n10869011 said:
Disagree in many ways. ST has plenty of tempo plays - Half-elf Hunter is an unconditional 12-strength bronze, Aelirenn is pretty easy to trigger as well. Most ST decks don't run engines, i.e. they're tempo decks, i.e. they must be able to keep up in tempo or the can't compete.
ST vs. consume the ST player should not pass round 1. Losing up two cards is pretty dangerous against that deck, winning on equal is much safer.
I don't see what Villentretenmerth has to do with Wardancers. And I think you grossly overrate Wardancers. If other decks can compete without them, why can't ST? It's got enough cards to have its own unique strategies, so if ST becomes fatally weakened (which I doubt) numbers can always be adjusted to bring it back into contention.
I only play on the pro ladder. I don't think I've played a single game on regular ranked in three seasons. My last serious season was before they reduced the duration from two months to one and I reached rank 21.
When I said that ST is finished without wardancer I meant it was finished as a viable contender in the pro scene. I didn't mean it couldn't be played casually with success.
Even with wardancer, only 3 people out of 8 brought it to the last Open. And all decks had 2 wardancers in them.
Also a 12 point bronze isn't the kind of tempo I mean. I mean 18+ points with only one card. ST doesn't have those besides Cleaver and Ciri as standalone options. Everything else needs prep. Board full of elves, buffing your units, high units on opponent side. This means that if the opponent wins round one he can just ruin your day by playing down to the last card in round 2 and leaving you with no options.
Like I said before, even winning 2 cards down in round 1 is good enough sometimes.
Maybe I'm wrong and some magical new archtype will appear without wardancer that can compete against the other strong factions but I don't see it.
When I said that ST is finished without wardancer I meant it was finished as a viable contender in the pro scene. I didn't mean it couldn't be played casually with success.
Even with wardancer, only 3 people out of 8 brought it to the last Open. And all decks had 2 wardancers in them.
Also a 12 point bronze isn't the kind of tempo I mean. I mean 18+ points with only one card. ST doesn't have those besides Cleaver and Ciri as standalone options. Everything else needs prep. Board full of elves, buffing your units, high units on opponent side. This means that if the opponent wins round one he can just ruin your day by playing down to the last card in round 2 and leaving you with no options.
Like I said before, even winning 2 cards down in round 1 is good enough sometimes.
Maybe I'm wrong and some magical new archtype will appear without wardancer that can compete against the other strong factions but I don't see it.
VladAtheris;n10871171 said:
Hey, maybe they'll change the Sentries to be more like viper witchers and such. Instead of actually USING the special cards first, we'll just need to HAVE them in the deck and plop those 20-point Sentries turn 1. That'll be nice
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Barracuda88;n10871381 said:
Why is everyone pretending that noone is also having issues with these decks (witchers/henselt/etc)? So because those are unbalanced that suddenly makes ST untouchable?
I don't think anyone here wants to see ST stomped into the ground. People are just speaking out over cards they see as unfair.
I guess the devs agree. That doesn't mean that ST will also get some powerfull new cards and boosts.
Maybe the card gets killed, maybe not. I don't see the suggestions board swamped with ideas hot to boost ST either though.
TheEpicWhale;n10873851 said:
Well, here was a suggestion. Why did you assume it was sarcastic? It would be great for ST I think, in terms of power, even though it would be a lot less fun in terms of gameplay. We would also be able to revive them with Hattori then and have them reboost. Actually, even keeping the mechanic the same, but having them reboost to the number of special cards played when revived would be a good help. Or should I move it to the actual suggestion board and see how it fairs there?
And no one is saying ST is untouchable. The point (repeatedly restated I feel) was the homecoming letter that started off this thread didn't mention witchers/Henselt or Cleaver by name, instead singling out the wardancer, as if it's the Apocalypse that must be stopped. Last time this happened, it was the dwarves mentioned by name, and the archtype got nerfed heavy, while the rest of your "unbalanced" decks have, in fact, remained untouched. So I would say the expectations of ST players have some reason to be low.
It's possible they only mentioned wardancer because wardancer has a unique mechanic, and it's that mechanic which people find troubling. The problem with Brouver coin flip isn't one card though, it's the combination of being able to play insane tempo immediately in R1 (guaranteed more than other factions because of Brouver himself), and follow up with war dancer in R2 to not allow the opponent to dry pass if they did win R1 even 2 cards down. Addressing any part of that combo would help fix Brouver decks, but the fact that Wardancer shows up in so many other decks means that card (or mechanic) needs some additional attention paid to it.
People also have complained about Dun Banners, and suggested they be lowered to 3, or the point gap to pull them be raised. The thing is, it's much easier to address Banners or VWs than it is to address war dancers because of the mechanics involved. And that countering VWs or Banners is POSSIBLE. It's simply not possible to counter war dancers without you having to play some other card in R1 to get either discards (SK) or something in your graveyard.
People also have complained about Dun Banners, and suggested they be lowered to 3, or the point gap to pull them be raised. The thing is, it's much easier to address Banners or VWs than it is to address war dancers because of the mechanics involved. And that countering VWs or Banners is POSSIBLE. It's simply not possible to counter war dancers without you having to play some other card in R1 to get either discards (SK) or something in your graveyard.
licker;n10874631 said:
No, having a high play rate is not a reason to nerf a card. A card can have a 100% play rate and be perfectly balanced. Many cards are useless and if we keep nerfing cards with a high play rate it will simply keep reducing the valid card pool until you just play the same deck everyone else plays because it's the only thing that is competitive.
The reason you see the same deck over and over is because when they nerf something they break it. Been seeing alot of Commanders Horn lately? A 15 point silver that requires 5 cards on a row while other silvers get more without any setup at all. The card is dead, it may as well be removed from the game. This is what happens to cards that have a high play rate and needed "attention".
It was a neutral card and everyone had access to it, now it's garbage.
TheEpicWhale;n10873851 said:
ST archetypes
Movement: Not competitive.
Spella'tael: Not really competitive,T2 at best.
Dwarves: Dead.
That leaves 2 decks, mulligan and Eithne control. Both are going to take a hard hit by losing Wardancer and Mulligan will be dead with Both Brouver and Wardancer being nerfed not to mention Elven Scout will most likely get hit as well. That leaves ST with one option that isn't all that great now and will probably be T2 after the nerf, Eithne control.
Slowly but surely ST is being stomped into the ground.
Hellsmoke77 you aware that they (over)nerfed Horn because of ST and Eithne in particular? This is the most problematic Faction BY FAR since the Midwinter Fiasco and it is on the top of the ladder constantly.
Hellsmoke77;n10875531 said:
3 decks. There's also Brouver Shupe which is very popular in the top tier actually. And the meta report shows a good winrate for it too.
There's also a potential 4th in the form of Handbuff, since Brouver's handbuff performs very well compared to other iterations. And 3 out of those 4 decks will not get hit that hard by the rework of the Wardancer.
Let's make a small bet. I predict that the faction will be at the top of the meta even after the balance patch in May. Wanna call it now?
The most problematic faction BY FAR since day one is Skellige: endless res, carryover, basebuff, etc. And it's not even close. Every crucial change or nerf/buff is directly connected to that faction, including factions losing their identity... Scoia is just most hated faction.partci;n10875561 said:
ser2440;n10875581 said:3 decks. There's also Brouver Shupe which is very popular in the top tier actually. And the meta report shows a good winrate for it too.
There's also a potential 4th in the form of Handbuff, since Brouver's handbuff performs very well compared to other iterations. And 3 out of those 4 decks will not get hit that hard by the rework of the Wardancer.
Let's make a small bet. I predict that the faction will be at the top of the meta even after the balance patch in May. Wanna call it now?
Nah, just one - Shupe. Which isn't a deck, really. I sometimes play handbuff at 4.2k and it takes my close attention to pilot it against the decks people play there.
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HenryGrosmont;n10875891 said:
I'd say both. I was around in the closed beta. Scoia Scorch spam was definitely as annoying as Skellige with their infinite amount of CA spies and discarding. Maybe even more.
In the PTR, Veterans almost became the top archetype, with that suggested change to Eist Tuirseach. Then you have Scoia's Dwarves (formerly), and now Brouver (all variants really) and Eithne control and formerly Spell'tael, Mulligan and Movement. All of these required a huge nerf (Vrihedd officers were reworked and taken down from 6 to 4, Merigold's hailstorm was nerfed, movement was nerfed to oblivion, Spell'tael's Quen was removed and it fell behind in power). Seems to me like every huge nerf and crucial change is indeed directed at ST, not SK (even though I agree both are problematic).
Why isn't Shupe a deck?