Health: regen or stimpack?

[kilravok]

I haven't seen the self-patch-up version of Chtulhu, but the one in Metal Gear Solid 3 was, aside from looking for intelligent with having to apply certain treatment types to certain wound types on certain hit locations, was also an instant heal, which I think we all agree sucks.

The wounds should not heal. If you are crippled on a stomach wound, overdose on pain killers to get enough movement to get yer bleedin ass outta dere.
You want regeneration? Stay at home for a week...3.5 days if you got nano surgeons...3 days with medical treatment and absolute bed rest along with the nano surgeons....2.75 days if you had emergency surgery as well.....and make sure, even with nano surgeons to go to the doctors...that bullet there blew your smaller intestins, you need some antibiotics, mate....
And if you are in the middle of a mission when Trauma Team gets you out, automatic mission fail...unless you can heal and try again before the dead line....

The idea of having a set amount of health at the start of the mission works if there is a calender function and the time jumps as many days ahead as it would take to get fully healed. Lets you miss important dates like for excample some deadlines if you multi-contract your diary with missions or having to make it to the birthday of your romantic interest, but denies the option to having to choose if a mission is important enough to risk it while you still might split your stitches.

What I don't want to see is instant cut scene and victory when the last opponent falls, you reach the extraction point with hundreds of bogies behind you or the main target object is retrieved. Cut scenes are nice for cinematic atmosphere creation, but not rushing out of cover and over to the extraction point in disregard for your safety because the maths say, no matter how often you're hit, you will manage to get to that undefended copter that does not provide any cover fire whatsoever and don't even have the engines on before they can kill you. No ignoring your severely limited red-blurr vision in the knowledge, you don't need to be careful since you can take more than that bastard in front of you so why not some last man standing action, once he is down I get ported to mission debrief and am fully healed again anyways....

Stim packs should do nothing but suppress pain so that you can move again...not heal, only ignore wounds...or boost your physical, non-cyber attributes. And depending on what parts are cyber, stims have reduced effect...no point taking muscle accelerators if the only muscle that is not electro-reactive carbon-fiber based is the heart...

 

[HerrKazuya]

I don't understand how people could be in favour of auto regen, even if it is relatively slow. Why should the player get an advantage over opponents (I'm assuming enemy npcs don't auto regen as well). Remember, in Cyberpunk 2020 combat is gruesome, quick and deadly. Personally, I don't want to CDPR to overhaul the system and turn it into a third/first person shooter. For those who don't know the system, here a quick overview about the most important parts for combat:

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5088/cyberpunkdamage.png

First scenario:
So lets say you char gets hit by an opponent who fired his Sternmeyer Type 35 (a quite good heavy autopistol damage: 3D6) at you. He rolls 2,4,5 =11 damage points. He hits you in the chest. If you don't wear any armor and you are an average person, you would get 11-2=9 damage (average body type reduces damage by 2) , this would cause a critical wound, which means, you have to make a stun save in order to remain concious. Another thing is, that your REF, INT and CL are reduced to half (rounded up). The description of this state in the rulebook is this:

The character is holding his guts in with one hand and doing his damndest to stay in battle.

rulebook page 103.

Second scenario:
So what would happen if your char wore a kevlar vest, which has SP 10? Well, the vest would reduce the damage to 1. Since the attack damage was higher than the armors SP, the armor also gets damaged, which reduces the vests SP to 9 for the next attack roll. After that the body type modifier would theoretically reduce the damage to -1. But every time the BT modifier reduces damage to 0 or below, the damage is set to 1, so BT can only reduce, but never prevent damage. So our char ends up with one damage point and a slightly damaged vest. No stun save no nothing. Our char is only lightly wounded and can go on fighting without any penalties (for now).

Third scenario:
Everything is like before, our char wears a kevlar west etc, but we are not hit in the chest, we are hit in the right arm. Unfortunately, our vest only covers the torso, therefore we get 9 damage to the arm. You might think now, that everything is pretty much like scenario 1. Well, the short answer is no. Actually, it's worse than that. Every time a limb receives 8 damage or more, it gets crushed beond recognition/severed etc. So say bye bye to your right arm. But in order to wave your right arm good bye with your left hand, you'd have to make a death save. Death save? You surely mean stun save. Nope. See, whenever a limb gets severed etc, your wounding state is at least considered Mortal 0. This state is the easiest death save to make, but you'll die if you fail this one. Another thing is, that your REF, INT and CL gets divided by 3. If you manage to survive this you will need a replacement for your right arm later(either cyber or old school biological replacement).

Fourth scenario:
Okay this time, our char gets shot in the head. But we are lucky this time and our opponent only rolled a 1,1,4=6 damage. You might think now, that our char would only suffer 6-2=4 damage. Here is the not so funny part: Hits to the head always double the damage that was taken. So, we get 4*2=8 damage. We are seriously wounded (-2 to REF) and have to make a stun save. If we hadn't been so lucky with our opponents damage roll, we would have been in serious trouble. A hit to the head that deals 8 damage or more before being doubled is an instant kill. I should also mention that some GMs apply the BT modifier after doubling the damage for the head.



Okay, so now that you have a basic understanding of the combat system in 2020, I'd like to hear from the regen advocates, how on earth you would apply a regen system that doesn't screw up the entire system without at least implementing a completly new one. And on a second note, why should cyberpunk 2077 be a shooter oriented game? I'd say that the original system should not be changed much. Currently combat is just one of many options and often it is a quite a risky one, if you haven't cybered up your char to the max. In Cyberpunk 2020 there are skills like shadow/tracking, disguise, forgery, interrogate, intimidate, seduction, persusion & fast talk, electronics, programming etc. If there happens to be heavily armed guards in front of a door, that you absolutely have to pass, then there is a ton of options beside combat. Try to forge a security id, try to talk your way past, disguise as one of them etc. The limits are only set by your imagination, so get creative.
The last thing I want to see, is CDPR turning Cyberpunk 2077 into a generic sci-fi shooter like the Syndicate remake.

 

[kilravok]

I don't understand how people could be in favour of auto regen, even if it is relatively slow. Why should the player get an advantage over opponents (I'm assuming enemy npcs don't auto regen as well). Remember, in Cyberpunk 2020 combat is gruesome, quick and deadly. Personally, I don't want to CDPR to overhaul the system and turn it into a third/first person shooter. For those who don't know the system, here a quick overview about the most important parts for combat:

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5088/cyberpunkdamage.png

First scenario:
So lets say you char gets hit by an opponent who fired his Sternmeyer Type 35 (a quite good heavy autopistol damage: 3D6) at you. He rolls 2,4,5 =11 damage points. He hits you in the chest. If you don't wear any armor and you are an average person, you would get 11-2=9 damage (average body type reduces damage by 2) , this would cause a critical wound, which means, you have to make a stun save in order to remain concious. Another thing is, that your REF, INT and CL are reduced to half (rounded up). The description of this state in the rulebook is this: rulebook page 103.

Second scenario:
So what would happen if your char wore a kevlar vest, which has SP 10? Well, the vest would reduce the damage to 1. Since the attack damage was higher than the armors SP, the armor also gets damaged, which reduces the vests SP to 9 for the next attack roll. After that the body type modifier would theoretically reduce the damage to -1. But every time the BT modifier reduces damage to 0 or below, the damage is set to 1, so BT can only reduce, but never prevent damage. So our char ends up with one damage point and a slightly damaged vest. No stun save no nothing. Our char is only lightly wounded and can go on fighting without any penalties (for now).

Third scenario:
Everything is like before, our char wears a kevlar west etc, but we are not hit in the chest, we are hit in the right arm. Unfortunately, our vest only covers the torso, therefore we get 9 damage to the arm. You might think now, that everything is pretty much like scenario 1. Well, the short answer is no. Actually, it's worse than that. Every time a limb receives 8 damage or more, it gets crushed beond recognition/severed etc. So say bye bye to your right arm. But in order to wave your right arm good bye with your left hand, you'd have to make a death save. Death save? You surely mean stun save. Nope. See, whenever a limb gets severed etc, your wounding state is at least considered Mortal 0. This state is the easiest death save to make, but you'll die if you fail this one. Another thing is, that your REF, INT and CL gets divided by 3. If you manage to survive this you will need a replacement for your right arm later(either cyber or old school biological replacement).

Fourth scenario:
Okay this time, our char gets shot in the head. But we are lucky this time and our opponent only rolled a 1,1,4=6 damage. You might think now, that our char would only suffer 6-2=4 damage. Here is the not so funny part: Hits to the head always double the damage that was taken. So, we get 4*2=8 damage. We are seriously wounded (-2 to REF) and have to make a stun save. If we hadn't been so lucky with our opponents damage roll, we would have been in serious trouble. A hit to the head that deals 8 damage or more before being doubled is an instant kill. I should also mention that some GMs apply the BT modifier after doubling the damage for the head.



Okay, so now that you have a basic understanding of the combat system in 2020, I'd like to hear from the regen advocates, how on earth you would apply a regen system that doesn't screw up the entire system without at least implementing a completly new one. And on a second note, why should cyberpunk 2077 be a shooter oriented game? I'd say that the original system should not be changed much. Currently combat is just one of many options and often it is a quite a risky one, if you haven't cybered up your char to the max. In Cyberpunk 2020 there are skills like shadow/tracking, disguise, forgery, interrogate, intimidate, seduction, persusion & fast talk, electronics, programming etc. If there happens to be heavily armed guards in front of a door, that you absolutely have to pass, then there is a ton of options beside combat. Try to forge a security id, try to talk your way past, disguise as one of them etc. The limits are only set by your imagination, so get creative.
The last thing I want to see, is CDPR turning Cyberpunk 2077 into a generic sci-fi shooter like the Syndicate remake.

Amen to all of that!

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah, I subtract BTM after doubling. Duh. Since your UBER MUSCLES will not help a lot with a skull penetration. Although there is an argument for general toughness... I also, in a rare act of mercy, force death saves only on 8 damage before doubling. Although head hits are often fatal, not always and 4 damage is silly-easy to get. Like, you can kill a man in a single punch 1 in 3 hits with a dam mod of +1...so, yes. Silly.

That said, I'm a big big fan of bleeding and shock and, yeah, if you aren't down from 6 damage to the head, once it's doubled to 12 you are at full on critical and next round, one damage from blood loss and hey! You are at Mortal 0! yaaay! Prepare to make MORE death saves!

 

[blank_redge]

Healing potions! =D

They'd be a suite of nano-machines, suspended in a viscous solution with base proteins they could use for repair. You'd pop the vial, pour it over the affected area, and let the nano-machines stitch you up. They'd even be colored red!



This is, of course, parody. =p

I like some of the ideas as explained by S3ntinel and Kilravok:

My vote goes to stimpack or a hybrid system. And not just as something that you can use by a press of a button. I want my character to be forced to hide in order to inject a syringe of nanites to repair that burnt tissue as it's not something you could do in a blink of an eye.

-snip-

I find the regen system silly. I know it's not an easy matter when it comes to the question of choosing health restoring methods in games (and I agree that the regen system is sometimes better), but I believe the stimpack system fits this game better.

I think the global rejection of stim packs is because they are handled as magic potions that offer instant heal. If the stim packs or med kits are handled more realistically, as in taking time and focus (possibly even skill) to apply right (no using while being shot at, you need to be in cover or out of combat and you need to have your hands free and functional, etc...) and then some more time to let it take effect, there would be less complaints about them.

I like the idea of some sort of stim-pack that has nanites to repair damaged tissue, in the case of meatware. I also agree that it should be a gradual increase of health, rather than the "healing potion" or "medpack" mechanic you see in many action-oriented games.

Additionally, I'd like to see the application of stim-packs as a real-time action. As S3ntinel mentioned, in Fallout 3, you could be on the brink of death, but, if you go in to your Inventory menu, the game pauses, and if you're loaded up on stim-packs, you could be back at full health by the time you exit the menu. Like magic! =p

I'm thinking of a scenario where:

Player is low on health.

Player wants to apply a stim-pack, but knows if they stand in the open to do it, they'll get hosed.

Player runs around corner of building, to apply stim-pack.

While player runs around corner, NPC 1 lays down covering fire, disintegrating the corner of the wall the player ducked around. If the player pops their head out, they'll receive some cranial ventilation, gratis.

While NPC 1 lays down cover fire, NPC 2 charges and flanks.

Does the player successfully apply the stim-pack before NPC 2 has line-of-sight on them? Depends on how far away the player was when they ducked around the corner, and how quickly they could get in to their Inventory menu...

 

[kilravok]

Healing potions! =D

They'd be a suite of nano-machines, suspended in a viscous solution with base proteins they could use for repair. You'd pop the vial, pour it over the affected area, and let the nano-machines stitch you up. They'd even be colored red!



This is, of course, parody. =p

I like some of the ideas as explained by S3ntinel and Kilravok:



I like the idea of some sort of stim-pack that has nanites to repair damaged tissue, in the case of meatware. I also agree that it should be a gradual increase of health, rather than the "healing potion" or "medpack" mechanic you see in many action-oriented games.

Additionally, I'd like to see the application of stim-packs as a real-time action. As S3ntinel mentioned, in Fallout 3, you could be on the brink of death, but, if you go in to your Inventory menu, the game pauses, and if you're loaded up on stim-packs, you could be back at full health by the time you exit the menu. Like magic! =p

I'm thinking of a scenario where:

Player is low on health.

Player wants to apply a stim-pack, but knows if they stand in the open to do it, they'll get hosed.

Player runs around corner of building, to apply stim-pack.

While player runs around corner, NPC 1 lays down covering fire, disintegrating the corner of the wall the player ducked around. If the player pops their head out, they'll receive some cranial ventilation, gratis.

While NPC 1 lays down cover fire, NPC 2 charges and flanks.

Does the player successfully apply the stim-pack before NPC 2 has line-of-sight on them? Depends on how far away the player was when they ducked around the corner, and how quickly they could get in to their Inventory menu...

What would be a good modification to the time it takes to use the stims, have every single pouch, pocket, bag and wallet with it's own inventory menu and minimum time (calculated by set algorithm) to find and take an item depending on pocket type and how much other stuff is in it.
Included in the pocket type modificator would be things like how tight the opening is (easy or hard to get your hand into those pockets of your skin-tight blue jeans) and kind of closure it has (zip, buckle, combination lock, etc...).
Every pocket or container type would have a spacial capacity value, indicated as slots, each item uses up a number of slots due to it's own spatial size, limiting how many items you have. With using slots as in the classical backpack display, make it important where what item is placed in the container, how far away from the opening, add some tetris action to it, letting things fall out of place and fill holes when you remove something form the bottom.
Sure, the game pauses due to open menu, but the animation speed is calculated in accordance to all those factors, slowing down the speed in which you take the stims or whatever out of your belt pouch. Add to that the time it takes for the animation to inject the stims or apply the bandages (goes faster if you have the right medical and first aid skills). Suddenly it is no longer just a matter of ducking behind a garbage can to patch up, especially if the nano surgeons take half a minute for every 5% of patching up.
I still petition though that stims only allow you to ignore pain, reducing the skill and movement penalties you get from damage. By the time you got hold of the right bottle, filled up the syringe and injected the shit (unless you had a wallet of pre-loaded syringes), the flanking enemy would have you bulls-eyed, if the garbage can even survives long enough under the suppressant fire form his mate.

 

[blank_redge]

What would be a good modification to the time it takes to use the stims, have every single pouch, pocket, bag and wallet with it's own inventory menu and minimum time (calculated by set algorithm) to find and take an item depending on pocket type and how much other stuff is in it.

Included in the pocket type modificator would be things like how tight the opening is (easy or hard to get your hand into those pockets of your skin-tight blue jeans) and kind of closure it has (zip, buckle, combination lock, etc...).

Every pocket or container type would have a spacial capacity value, indicated as slots, each item uses up a number of slots due to it's own spatial size, limiting how many items you have. With using slots as in the classical backpack display, make it important where what item is placed in the container, how far away from the opening, add some tetris action to it, letting things fall out of place and fill holes when you remove something form the bottom.

Sure, the game pauses due to open menu, but the animation speed is calculated in accordance to all those factors, slowing down the speed in which you take the stims or whatever out of your belt pouch. Add to that the time it takes for the animation to inject the stims or apply the bandages (goes faster if you have the right medical and first aid skills).

...not that I flat-out disagree with this idea, but: don't you think this overcomplicates things a bit?

I figure that having to go in to an inventory menu while the background action isn't paused would be sufficient in replicating the chaos of being under fire.

 

[kilravok]

...not that I flat-out disagree with this idea, but: don't you think this overcomplicates things a bit?

I figure that having to go in to an inventory menu while the background action isn't paused would be sufficient in replicating the chaos of being under fire.

It would work, except that it then is a question of how well the menu and hotkeys are created as to how long it takes to get into inventory and find an item. With my described overcomplicated system, it would be down to one's own organization of inventory as to how fast one is, providing the different pouches are accessed by clicking on them.

 

[bearbeast123]

maybe not a specific point indication for damage but the ability to lose accuracy to hit a certain area. for instance you notice a person with an augmented arm but not legs you aim for the legs otherwise it is a blanket or whole damage system.

 

[blank_redge]

It would work, except that it then is a question of how well the menu and hotkeys are created as to how long it takes to get into inventory and find an item. With my described overcomplicated system, it would be down to one's own organization of inventory as to how fast one is, providing the different pouches are accessed by clicking on them.

Hm. My biggest grievance with creating a "pocket litter" subroutine is the amount of extra coding that it would require on the back-end, versus the simpler mechanic of allowing the player to access their inventory screen at any time, with the knowledge that they'll still be under fire while they're fumbling through their inventory.

Again, not opposed to your idea; just seems like a lot of extra work on the back-end. More lines of code involved, more opportunities for something to be buggy, neh?

 

[kilravok]

Hm. My biggest grievance with creating a "pocket litter" subroutine is the amount of extra coding that it would require on the back-end, versus the simpler mechanic of allowing the player to access their inventory screen at any time, with the knowledge that they'll still be under fire while they're fumbling through their inventory.

Again, not opposed to your idea; just seems like a lot of extra work on the back-end. More lines of code involved, more opportunities for something to be buggy, neh?

I see your point, but a girl may dream.

 

[oshunsar]

I'd like just the 2020 game mechanics:
Drugs, Painkillers etc during a fight - taking time - is ok.
Now it is: Help or death?
Help if your not able to heal yourself can come two ways: automated trauma teams ( a little bit of Ghost in the machine) or
with building a group or partnership (KI or PC) First Aid, bindiging AND calling a med team will perfectly make sense.
And dont give vast space for medis: Thinking is part of CP as is dodging or RUNNING and coming back later with bigger guns...

Nanotech was possible (and expensive) even in 2020, but - that would kill any suspense in my opinion.

 

[kilravok]

Oh, I totally hate having a stack of 99 health packs compressed into a single inventory slot. Every syringe needs to be in it's own slot.
It is already stupid to have like over 10000 gold coins in a money pouch...any idea how heavy 10000 gold coins are?

 

[blank_redge]

Oh, I totally hate having a stack of 99 health packs compressed into a single inventory slot. Every syringe needs to be in it's own slot.
It is already stupid to have like over 10000 gold coins in a money pouch...any idea how heavy 10000 gold coins are?

Indeed.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle the damage / health mechanic, and see if there's an inventory component to it.

I would think there would be, but I'm interested in seeing if they can implement it, without it feeling too "arcade-y."

 

[wisdom000]

Indeed.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle the damage / health mechanic, and see if there's an inventory component to it.

I would think there would be, but I'm interested in seeing if they can implement it, without it feeling too "arcade-y."

It will definitely be interesting.... though honestly, I am ok with Damage being a bit simplified from the game, in fact its kind of inevitable. I mean the game is going to encompass so much already, and they want people to buy and play it beyond just Cyberpunk 2020 and Witcher fans... sosome compromise on how damage is handled is probably inevitable. GTA's system wasn't horrible, in that at least you didn't regen. Throw a limp in their for leg shots, or messup aim, inability to climb for arm shots... and we have a pretty good model.

As for regaining health.... I am sure some compromise must be made... I would prefer a system where your medical skills apply to self heal checks, but unless you are a med-tech ten, the only way to get to 100% health again is to visit a hospital or ripperdoc... maybe everytime you sleep you also gain back some points as well... perhaps 20%25 percent.... I dunno...

But it probably won't be as hard core as many of us would really like, because the general public isn't going to want to slog through all that... or maybe I am wrong, and something new would appeal... But even if they do want to test the market for such a thing, they should reserve it for the highest difficulty level.

 

[kilravok]

Let them do hardcore in spite of what it already will encompass....let's remap the standards and set the bar higher. Do we really need games that give us achievement trophies for figuring out how to turn on a computer and follow a tutorial? Do we need a simple mix-blooded bastard of GTA and Skyrim? I say NAY! They are already combining open world with story focused RPG...why stop there? lets make this epic, I am perfectly willing to wait an extra two years for that.

 

[Val3ri]

I'd vote for equipment that can regen slowly a bit amount of health. Much faster if the character is quite (and hidden), and much slower if he/she is moving. It would have a charge; and once it is finished, end of the story, you have to recharge it (which would takes some time). That obviously means that you have already spent some space of your limited inventory to have such re-charges. The more expensive, the better.

And I would have syringes as medipacks. This ones would be nearly instantly used, while the one I mentioned before do that over the time.

If you want that kind of health recovery advantage, it means you have decided not to have other advantages.

And yes, a medic character would do all this better (faster, more health).

 

[videopete]

Hm. My biggest grievance with creating a "pocket litter" subroutine is the amount of extra coding that it would require on the back-end, versus the simpler mechanic of allowing the player to access their inventory screen at any time, with the knowledge that they'll still be under fire while they're fumbling through their inventory.

Again, not opposed to your idea; just seems like a lot of extra work on the back-end. More lines of code involved, more opportunities for something to be buggy, neh?

It really isn't as hard as you think, its just attaching an extra few numbers in the weight time while whosidinging around with your junk in a firefight.

 

[blank_redge]

It really isn't as hard as you think, its just attaching an extra few numbers in the weight time while whosidinging around with your junk in a firefight.

If I understand Kilravok's suggestion, when we go into our Inventory screen, the game would pause. Depending on where in our inventory we have our stim-packs (or whatever healing mechanic CDPR decides to go with), there would then be a separate animation for each location we could pull said stim-pack from. And, depending on the difficulty modifiers (pocket litter, tightness of clothing, etc.,) the speed of the animation would be effected (which would, in turn, effect how quickly you'd be able to return fire in a firefight.)

Seems like a lot of extra work to me. Again, just my opinion.

 

[kilravok]

If I understand Kilravok's suggestion, when we go into our Inventory screen, the game would pause. Depending on where in our inventory we have our stim-packs (or whatever healing mechanic CDPR decides to go with), there would then be a separate animation for each location we could pull said stim-pack from. And, depending on the difficulty modifiers (pocket litter, tightness of clothing, etc.,) the speed of the animation would be effected (which would, in turn, effect how quickly you'd be able to return fire in a firefight.)

Seems like a lot of extra work to me. Again, just my opinion.

Almost but not quite as I meant it.
EITHER
you go into inventory and you need time to find your junk, but it is still normal inventory menu, separations between different pockets only set by tabs or windows. Since it would be using icons instead of names, remember or search for the right icon to use.
OR
instead of a hotkey to get into inventory, you have to click on the correct pouch on your belt or the right compartment in your backpack on the avatar (if you remember what you have put in which). Find the right item in your dump (or in your orderly sorted pocket, depending on how geeky you are) to use it. In this version, the inventory window of the individual pocket has it's own physics simulation, letting things slide down and get disorderly to fill the big gap you leave when you pull something out form the bottom.

EITHER WAY
IF the game pauses, it will time the time it takes to find the item and stretch the "take out of pocket" animation over that time, modified by pouch type.
IF the game does NOT pause, then the taking of the item animation would be just a set standard time depending on what kind of pouch, you already get punished for taking longer to find what you need.
The animnation would always be the same, does not really need to go THAT far into detail. or maybe have two animations, one taking out of pocket/pouch and one unstrapping the backpack to take something out of it...

The animation time for using an item depends on what the item is, not on where it is or how long it takes to find.
Also, I would like to see each pouch type or size having a limit to the size of item you can fit through the opening even if there is enough space to theoretically fit the item (plenty of slots available to fit a 3x6 sized item into the pouch, but opening doesn't allow for anything bigger than 2 along one axis)