What I meant is that shareholders don't really participate in the company's current operations, nor do they provide it with constant money stream, nor, for that matter, get any profit from the company's operations, at least not directly. General meeting of shareholders has some degree of decision making to shape the company's aspects, but it's the biggest shareholders that really matter (predominantly other companies or organizations), as they can become members of the board (and they can elect its members), but as far as money goes, they can decide what to do with company's income - they can decide on paying out dividend, for instance, thus redirecting the income into their own pockets. So this way they are concerned by company's well-doing. But apart from that, the whole stock market is but a game of perceptions ruled by ignorance and slyness.
In my experience CDPR is the one and only dev that continue to expand upon the game(free of charge) after the game has been released. Calling this mere 'updates', as in the updating most devs do with their games, isn't entirely fair. 
The 'final' product is Enhanced Edition and has been since Witcher 1. Hell, they even re-recorded audio at some points and added what other devs would call DLC and charge players for it. Editing is a tedious process whether writing a book or making a game or film, and things being 'cut' or omitted in Witcher 3 are to be expected. However: Will this be things we have been promised, for instance Roach and riding being taken from the game? No, I don't think so.
I think, by having more time, CDPR will try to avoid leaving out what has already been implemented. Instead they use the time to polish(and that joke is so old btw :laughing up the product. IF something is taken out of the game, it will surely be in the Enhanced Edition...but then again, shit happens. Even to the best devs out there. If a game element doesn't work it doesn't work, leaving it in wouldn't make it a better game.
In any case, I have faith in you devs! :unworthy:
EDIT: And since you mentioned shareholders here I got to think of the two unluckiest 'shareholders' I know of:
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If you played the game you might recall the line about getting "10 000 shares of stock each". As far as goons go, I feel sad for Nestor and Bolus. Ripburger isn't the nicest boss you can have.
I was going to post the whole derby video but no, the game is worth to be replayed!
:laughing:
The 'final' product is Enhanced Edition and has been since Witcher 1. Hell, they even re-recorded audio at some points and added what other devs would call DLC and charge players for it. Editing is a tedious process whether writing a book or making a game or film, and things being 'cut' or omitted in Witcher 3 are to be expected. However: Will this be things we have been promised, for instance Roach and riding being taken from the game? No, I don't think so.
I think, by having more time, CDPR will try to avoid leaving out what has already been implemented. Instead they use the time to polish(and that joke is so old btw :laughing
up the product. IF something is taken out of the game, it will surely be in the Enhanced Edition...but then again, shit happens. Even to the best devs out there. If a game element doesn't work it doesn't work, leaving it in wouldn't make it a better game.In any case, I have faith in you devs! :unworthy:
EDIT: And since you mentioned shareholders here I got to think of the two unluckiest 'shareholders' I know of:
If you played the game you might recall the line about getting "10 000 shares of stock each". As far as goons go, I feel sad for Nestor and Bolus. Ripburger isn't the nicest boss you can have.
I was going to post the whole derby video but no, the game is worth to be replayed!
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Every game has cuts. Delays prevent them. Watchdogs was an extreme case where, the developer made grandiose promises WAY too early in development. And showed off an incredible looking game exceedingly early...than went dark when they realized they couldn't pull it off. Their delay was obviously a scramble to rework the game entirely.
Witcher 3 has trickled information, has looked better each time, and hasn't shown us much even to this point. Anything the devs have talked about confidently or shown us is extremely unlikely to get cut. It is an ambitious game, they realize needs more than a few months of polish before it is ready (a fall release would mean the game goes gold and preps for shipping in 3-4 months). We've also been told the game is now playable from start to finish. But yes, in the process of extra testing they may realize a certain quest doesn't add anything to the game, and cut it to prevent it from taking unnecessary resources...but that isn't necessarily bad cut content...that would be good in my opinion. They may also notice a certain sign mechanic just ends up not functioning as intended, or that the Igni firewall is simply better than any other option, and current mechanics may be changed during the extra time.
Delay's aren't inherently good or bad. They depend entirely on the efficacy of the development team and their commitment to their product. Everything CDPR has done, said, and shown us to date has done nothing but to ensure my confidence that they will do what is best for their end product, and that any changes made will be because they legitimately believe it increases the quality of the game.
CDPR has done nothing but improved since they first released Witcher 1, every change they have made in Enhanced Editions etc has always objectively improved their product, they've always held fan feedback in high regard. They are in full control of their own game as well, which is important. They publish and develop it. They're driven internally, not pressured externally. I don't see a reason to worry.
Witcher 3 has trickled information, has looked better each time, and hasn't shown us much even to this point. Anything the devs have talked about confidently or shown us is extremely unlikely to get cut. It is an ambitious game, they realize needs more than a few months of polish before it is ready (a fall release would mean the game goes gold and preps for shipping in 3-4 months). We've also been told the game is now playable from start to finish. But yes, in the process of extra testing they may realize a certain quest doesn't add anything to the game, and cut it to prevent it from taking unnecessary resources...but that isn't necessarily bad cut content...that would be good in my opinion. They may also notice a certain sign mechanic just ends up not functioning as intended, or that the Igni firewall is simply better than any other option, and current mechanics may be changed during the extra time.
Delay's aren't inherently good or bad. They depend entirely on the efficacy of the development team and their commitment to their product. Everything CDPR has done, said, and shown us to date has done nothing but to ensure my confidence that they will do what is best for their end product, and that any changes made will be because they legitimately believe it increases the quality of the game.
CDPR has done nothing but improved since they first released Witcher 1, every change they have made in Enhanced Editions etc has always objectively improved their product, they've always held fan feedback in high regard. They are in full control of their own game as well, which is important. They publish and develop it. They're driven internally, not pressured externally. I don't see a reason to worry.
Well, they can used that unfinised material for make a big expasion in a future
Exactly, I can't see why they didn't make an expansion in the Valley of Flowers.
Maybe you'll never even know about that stuff. Why would they tell us about what they cut rather than what we'll actually get?
Well yeah shareholders are Gods and silly me I thought CD Projekt was self owned oh and yeah let shareholders buy all the games because here is a lot of propaganda that only ones who should be satisfied are shareholders and that whiny peasant dog gamers should be happy if they get working witcher 3 shortcut and main menu. -.-
Also if it was up to shareholders this game would have at most 15% of planned content and rest of it would be dlcs,enhanced edition patch for those who already own game would be 20 bucks and collector edition of Witcher 3 would have cheap witcher medallion which costed to make 3 bucks.Maybe even dev's children would be given a task to make them for small allowance increase.
So yeah chearing and seeing everything from shareholder's point of view from a gamer is like slave justifing his position by putting himself in his master's shoes and saying: Oh,but then dominus would have increased production costs if he freed me,I totally understand him.
Of course people need to have reasonable expectations and to keep in mind complexity of game development and financial side of it but advocating for maximum shareholder's satisfaction and crumbs for gamers and justifing everything with that's how shit works and deal with it tells me that those people would make great public liars cough I mean PRs and they should stop waisting their and our time here and get a job and one day become shareholder and don't give a fuck instead of being enlightened 'peasant stupid childish gamer' unlike rest of us cause we lack enlightenment part.In other words....be a man and not child cause man don't give a shiiiiit about ideals and have shitty expectations.How you dare to have higher expectation than me you self entitled prick,and so on and so on -.-
I mean games are for kidies right,so why they don't put my little ponies in game to attract younger audiences and increase quartal profit for divine shareholders.What happened with doing your job (in this case game development) with passion and pushing boundaries of what's possible and making the best game you can (from the gamers for the gamers) and in meantime earning enough money to live like a upper middle class and just doing your job and not making compomises all the time and making a living with it.
I guess some of posters here forgot everything about that when they turned 30.Give it some more time and they will look at gaming the same way as EA executive or CNN's reporter when any mass shooting happened.Oh bloody idealist hippies,crawl back to your holes.....is response I expect to get although post deleted is far more likely.
Agh.....here we go again.GTA V's official forum and Total War's too all over again.....
Also if it was up to shareholders this game would have at most 15% of planned content and rest of it would be dlcs,enhanced edition patch for those who already own game would be 20 bucks and collector edition of Witcher 3 would have cheap witcher medallion which costed to make 3 bucks.Maybe even dev's children would be given a task to make them for small allowance increase.
So yeah chearing and seeing everything from shareholder's point of view from a gamer is like slave justifing his position by putting himself in his master's shoes and saying: Oh,but then dominus would have increased production costs if he freed me,I totally understand him.
Of course people need to have reasonable expectations and to keep in mind complexity of game development and financial side of it but advocating for maximum shareholder's satisfaction and crumbs for gamers and justifing everything with that's how shit works and deal with it tells me that those people would make great public liars cough I mean PRs and they should stop waisting their and our time here and get a job and one day become shareholder and don't give a fuck instead of being enlightened 'peasant stupid childish gamer' unlike rest of us cause we lack enlightenment part.In other words....be a man and not child cause man don't give a shiiiiit about ideals and have shitty expectations.How you dare to have higher expectation than me you self entitled prick,and so on and so on -.-
I mean games are for kidies right,so why they don't put my little ponies in game to attract younger audiences and increase quartal profit for divine shareholders.What happened with doing your job (in this case game development) with passion and pushing boundaries of what's possible and making the best game you can (from the gamers for the gamers) and in meantime earning enough money to live like a upper middle class and just doing your job and not making compomises all the time and making a living with it.
I guess some of posters here forgot everything about that when they turned 30.Give it some more time and they will look at gaming the same way as EA executive or CNN's reporter when any mass shooting happened.Oh bloody idealist hippies,crawl back to your holes.....is response I expect to get although post deleted is far more likely.
Agh.....here we go again.GTA V's official forum and Total War's too all over again.....
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Whatever point you're trying to make, do so without attacking the other users of this forum.
Pajkes - nobody here is saying that CDPR should cut back on the game to please shareholders. What is being pointed out is that a) parts of games get cut all of the time, for many reasons, and b) even if CDPR are planning to cut scenes, which is total speculation they wouldn't announce it publicly.
Take a look at CDPR's share prices - the decision to delay the game isn't something that makes shareholders happy, and most certainly wasn't something that the shareholders would have demanded.
Pajkes - nobody here is saying that CDPR should cut back on the game to please shareholders. What is being pointed out is that a) parts of games get cut all of the time, for many reasons, and b) even if CDPR are planning to cut scenes, which is total speculation they wouldn't announce it publicly.
Take a look at CDPR's share prices - the decision to delay the game isn't something that makes shareholders happy, and most certainly wasn't something that the shareholders would have demanded.
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@dragonbird I completely understand that and that's all being part of financial side of game development and yes games usually get postponed and from normal person's perspective that usually would mean that game would either be more polished or have more content when in fact from GTA V to Oblivion (with 80% of demonstrated AI and graphics and tons of other stuff including whole city cut) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjbx6-KQoRg and countless other examples that's simply not true.
And although higly subjective there are at least IMO 2 types of content cutting.Justified and not so justified.For example GTA:San Andreas cut huuuuuuuuuuuge amount of stuff because back than on PS 2 they filled 2 discs and shareholders wanted everything to be squeezed into one in order to decrease production costs.So Rockstar had to cut cut cut cut cut.And although you could justify it from financial angle,nothing stops Rockstar from realesing anniversary uncut edition and earning even more money cause this year is 10 years since SA's realese.Of course they just released Android version of the game.Lame IMO -.-
And on the other hand you have Paradox who clearly couldn't put everything they wanted into their game so they fix that with great dlc model.
So...explaining why cuts happen and maybe putting them back into game if it's possible and reasonable after realese is fine and normal.But telling everyone that gaming=economics (it does play important part I admit) and that games should be made like any other product (chocolate,beer,wash machines etc) and that devs should cut cut cut cut although they spent time and resources on that (like in Rome 2 where they cut 70% of 90% finished features in order to make deadline all because of publisher and lead director who has a long history working for EA) is silly.
Bottom line is that IMO shareholders should see return in investment cause otherwise they wouldn't invest but putting shareholders in front of dev's decisions and gamers is just something I thought CD Projekt is different than others and by delaying game they just proved that.It's just that it is hard for me to understand why some posters here would prefer more CD Projekt to be like Bughtesda or EA when they obviously would not like to do business like them and by business I mean game development.That's all.
And although higly subjective there are at least IMO 2 types of content cutting.Justified and not so justified.For example GTA:San Andreas cut huuuuuuuuuuuge amount of stuff because back than on PS 2 they filled 2 discs and shareholders wanted everything to be squeezed into one in order to decrease production costs.So Rockstar had to cut cut cut cut cut.And although you could justify it from financial angle,nothing stops Rockstar from realesing anniversary uncut edition and earning even more money cause this year is 10 years since SA's realese.Of course they just released Android version of the game.Lame IMO -.-
And on the other hand you have Paradox who clearly couldn't put everything they wanted into their game so they fix that with great dlc model.
So...explaining why cuts happen and maybe putting them back into game if it's possible and reasonable after realese is fine and normal.But telling everyone that gaming=economics (it does play important part I admit) and that games should be made like any other product (chocolate,beer,wash machines etc) and that devs should cut cut cut cut although they spent time and resources on that (like in Rome 2 where they cut 70% of 90% finished features in order to make deadline all because of publisher and lead director who has a long history working for EA) is silly.
Bottom line is that IMO shareholders should see return in investment cause otherwise they wouldn't invest but putting shareholders in front of dev's decisions and gamers is just something I thought CD Projekt is different than others and by delaying game they just proved that.It's just that it is hard for me to understand why some posters here would prefer more CD Projekt to be like Bughtesda or EA when they obviously would not like to do business like them and by business I mean game development.That's all.
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Since nobody ever wrote anything of the kind in this thread, I do not know why you feel obliged to vent in this manner, but you have now had more than your say, and unless you quote and respond substantively, decently, and in order to other members, you may excuse yourself from this thread.
Nobody said content should be cut or dumbed down or made like white goods to satisfy shareholders. Passion for the games you make is wonderful, and CDPR built a company that is worth a great deal on that passion. But in order for that passion to mean anything, you must also finish what you set out to do. The only artist who could ever get away with leaving works unfinished was Leonardo, and nobody who is anything like Leonardo is among us today.
Cuts have nothing to do with satisfying shareholders or making schedule. Cuts are made because every good work of art is cut, severely, and is better for having been cut. "Red-hot words require a blue pencil."
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Well 3 posts from you in this thread alone about how much shareholders should be pleased first is something to begin with.Than I noticed this trend with you bashing any kind of gamer's wishes and suggestions forgeting that they are merely wishes and suggestions and that no one is forced to make them happen and that devs may or may not give them a thought.Like here for example:
I see very little to none fan suggestions control since we know that already some features were cut like VATS and stealth (justified or not it's subjective).So excuse me for getting an impression from quite a few posts like comparing gamer's concerns that Novigrad will not be much bigger than Whiterun like this:
....that you somehow have something against devs making the best game they want.Also any decision made by devs is either their or shareholders and fans can not possibly order devs nor should they try.Unlike investors.Which you seem to be advocating for.Not as they should see return in investment but they should squeeze every penny from this game.
Shareholders are going to have their say whether you or I like it or not. They own the company, and they set its direction. They control the board of directors, and they can get rid of managers who they feel are jeopardizing their investment. That's not even a point that can be disputed: they do, because they paid for it.
If shareholders panic and drive down the price of your stock because you pushed a product launch into next year, that's life. You make the best you can of it, and turn out the great product you were going to turn out anyway. But nobody who properly runs his publicly owned company as a business can do other than assure his shareholders that they are not taking on the risk of the game being delayed again or not finished at all. It's your job, and you do your job as a condition of creating these wonderful games.
It's life in a public company. CDPR exists and did not go out of business after the failure of "Rise of the White Wolf" because they are a public company.
If shareholders panic and drive down the price of your stock because you pushed a product launch into next year, that's life. You make the best you can of it, and turn out the great product you were going to turn out anyway. But nobody who properly runs his publicly owned company as a business can do other than assure his shareholders that they are not taking on the risk of the game being delayed again or not finished at all. It's your job, and you do your job as a condition of creating these wonderful games.
It's life in a public company. CDPR exists and did not go out of business after the failure of "Rise of the White Wolf" because they are a public company.
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How do you know they were "cut"? They probably just experimented with some ideas to see whether they fit in the game and whether they are fun and useful.
And to claim that these are "cut" features is ridiculous. Or maybe you also a cooking simulator in the game, starting fire mini game and let's also throw in the kitchen sink as well.
Honestly, I'm pretty glad that CDPR are refraining from showing too much, as some features are still being added/tweaked/removed, and there will always be those people who will find something to complain about, just so that they don't shut up.
I'm also pretty tired of everyone using Watch Dogs as comparison for each delay.
Watch Dogs is Watch Dogs, there is absolutely nothing pointing to the same thing with TW3, too many drama queen "fans" IMO.
I no longer understand what's going on in this thread :blink:
Shareholders don't have a say in what the game will or will not have. Any potential cuts could be decided only by the entity who finances the game, which usually is a publisher (like EA or Ubisoft) - but in this instance TW3's production is entirely self-financing, and while there are various reasons to reach out to shareholders, contents of the game most likely aren't among them.
Shareholders don't have a say in what the game will or will not have. Any potential cuts could be decided only by the entity who finances the game, which usually is a publisher (like EA or Ubisoft) - but in this instance TW3's production is entirely self-financing, and while there are various reasons to reach out to shareholders, contents of the game most likely aren't among them.
@Yellowcardus posted this regarding the new conference:
And lastly, this is relevant to the "Cut content?" thread - They said that it's totaly normal to design a bit more content and cut the unnecesary stuff later as it's "typical development process" however, unlike previous games they decided not to do that with W3. Apparently all of the additional bit's that would have bin normally cut are in the game, because they were "too good" to be cut and the additional time makes it viable to implement them.
Wich perhaps explains why older interviews stated 50h main story 50h side quests. With the newer ones mentioning up to 120h total IIRC.
If this is true I am now surprisingly much more excited for the game than I was before.
And lastly, this is relevant to the "Cut content?" thread - They said that it's totaly normal to design a bit more content and cut the unnecesary stuff later as it's "typical development process" however, unlike previous games they decided not to do that with W3. Apparently all of the additional bit's that would have bin normally cut are in the game, because they were "too good" to be cut and the additional time makes it viable to implement them.
Wich perhaps explains why older interviews stated 50h main story 50h side quests. With the newer ones mentioning up to 120h total IIRC.
If this is true I am now surprisingly much more excited for the game than I was before.
You're right; shareholders do not have a say in day-to-day operations, and that includes things like game content. Every shareholder who bought into CD Projekt already knows, and presumably approves of, the kind of games they make, and they would not want them to change.
But you bring up self-financing. Where does the capital for self-financing come from? It comes from retained earnings, mostly. Who owns the retained earnings? The shareholders.
Self-financing is the use of the shareholders' money for its legitimate purpose, which is the creation of worthwhile things. Shareholders have a strong interest in an assurance that their money will be used to create a game that is both worthwhile and profitable. You must keep the shareholders on board with those assurances; otherwise, they will make your life miserable.
While content is not something the shareholders would even want a say in, the ability of the team to deliver a quality product on time in order to generate sales that turn a profit on their investment is precisely what you should expect them to be interested in. And a schedule slip is always and everywhere one of the first signs that a product is at risk. A shareholder who did not inquire into the reason for the slip and the assurances that the product is not at risk would be negligent.
And @Geralt_of_bsas is absolutely right about cuts in his post. Any creative team worth their wages will produce more excellent content than you can possibly use. There have to be cuts. Cuts are the sign of a healthy creative process.
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