Under the heading, "What is Cyberpunk?"

[Sardukhar]

Under the heading, "What is Cyberpunk?"

And as it pertains to the RPG genre and CP2020 specifically. I'll probably move this to an appropriate thread later.

Anyway, check this link out:http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=32197 which also links to another thread at rpg.net: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php...eding-Edge-Emergent-Gameplay-and-Eric-Brennan

for an interesting and I think perceptive summary of 2020 and Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, even Vampire and Exalted and the difference between what R. Tal had hoped for, (Streets of Fire) and what they got (Heat).

Eric Brennan has written for, among other things, Exalted.

Anyway, it's worth a look. Some good back and forth. I do also recall something about Mike mentioning in Cybergeneration something about he'd hoped for less of a "heist" and guns galore game than what happened with 2020.

Explores a question that comes up a lot here: what is Cyberpunk beyond Guns and Gear?

 

[blank_redge]

...what is Cyberpunk beyond Guns and Gear?

Breaking The System's back with its own tools.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

High tech and low life. Neo-noir.

 

[Sardukhar]

Sure and those are great concepts, as we'e discussed. But how do you implement these things in a story or game?

If you checked the links, you'll see some of the images were the main characters from Streets of Fire kissing in the rain, Molly and Case making love in a coffin motel, the sacrifice of your humanity in pursuit of revenge while augmented police hunted you down, and the tragedy that implies.

These concepts, romance and tragedy, are too easily drowned 'midst the gadgets, the tech, the heists. The challenge is to design poignancy into the game - but it is a challenge often failed as players go off gleefully power tripping.

Which is fine, but also a waste.

This quote was interesting to me: "Interestingly, I suspect that this is why Shadowrun has survived -- because it's not a first generation RPG trying to model cyberpunk genre fiction, it's a second-generation game modeling what worked in a first generation game. It's modeling the emergent play from Cyberpunk which was so successful and easy for people to latch onto. "

Now, if Shadowrun does well because it takes these tropes and runs with them, but the purer Cyberpunk 2020 has faded, what does that say about CDPR's goals? How can they revitalize the setting in a world already near-dystopic, with killer robots, cyberlimbs, corporate influenced elections and mercenary armies?

This I found fairly interesting as well, from further in the rpg.net thread, jsnead, author:

"Also, there's a degree to which we are actually living in a cyberpunk future from the PoV of people in the 80s - the USSR went broke, in the 90s there were US catalogs devoted to selling old Soviet surplus goods, ubiquitous surveillance is the norm, killer robots are regularly used in combat, and (in the US at least) Citizens United came close to allowing large corporations to buy politicians, and the ice caps continue to melt. Cyberpunk was all about fear of a dystopian future - it works less well in a semi-dystopian present that looks like a cyberpunk novel. I don't know what something would be that would catch the modern mood as well, but it wouldn't be cyberpunk."

I don't really disagree here.

These threads are quite live, by the way, being posted in a just last week. Possibly relevant, as Shadowrun Returns and Online are active, with 2077 coming.


Oh, lastly, one thing worth addressing: the failure of Empathy as designed when applied by power gamers. Now, lots of PCs use it as meant - Rockers, Medtechs, Cops..all need it for Human Perception and the like.

But for many Roles - Solos, Nomads and any Role heavily cyborged, you buy up Empathy quite high to get more cyber. Which I, as a Ref, have no problem with IS you RP a once very empathic person having lost that.* But another solution whcih I plan to employ next game I run, is to make Empathy easier to acquire with therapy and drugs...for lots of money, of course.

This is in the source books, but rarely made use of. I hope it encourages more human play.



*For a very empathic psychopath, check out James Woods' character in Bestseller - he understands quite well how people feel, it just doesn't generally affect him.

 

[Hoplite_22]

Personally, i think you do it to some extent the way DnD 5 approached it, you build the out line of the back story with the character, gives you incentive to fill it in as you play the game and that, to me anyway, it how you get those sorts of interaction.

the game can only really set the mood though, if your players aren't interested in doing that stuff it's really not going to happen.

 

[Decatonkeil]

Ugh... this is a conversation that is very difficult to get into for someone that has never played CP2020, never ever GM'd, and has done very little PnP RPGing. I only have the places where my imagination takes me when I read about CP2020 (or other RPGs) and a very romanticised bias that I have probably due to my lack of experience. I think this won't be much of a problem in the videogame CP2077, which will have to some degree a set narrative. I suppose both the videogame and PnP versions need some more cooperation from players to play more than action scenes, and certain roles could really help do this. I mean, we usually get (and from the bigger CP2020 experts no less!) comments like "why would you want to be anything other than a solo? Why would you not want to be cool." Well, because we have the Lenny Neros, the Marly Krushkhovas, the Spider Jerusalems... I'm very much into the quixotic type of characters or the unassuming heroes and antiheroes. I'd really like CP2077 videogame and PnP to address this. If I ever got to GM it, I'd try my best to convince the players to play something original and try and give them a good story where not only combat or intrusion are the memorable scenes.

 

[Sardukhar]

I mean, we usually get (and from the bigger CP2020 experts no less!) comments like "why would you want to be anything other than a solo? Why would you not want to be cool."

Ahhh.. I -might- say that, somewhat facetiously, as someone who usually plays Solos, but has played Nomads, Cops and Netrunners.

Wisdom prefers Nomads.

Suhiira generally runs and when (if) she plays, I don't think she's expressed a preference.

Can't think of anyone else huge into CPunk really Pro-Solo.

Solo is a lot of fun, but it's also massively limited. To be good at what you do - and you better be good, unlike other Roles, you get to seriously fail only once - to be that good, you have to give up on a lot of other skills and cyberware. Piloting, knowledge, human perception, fashion sense, performance, high tech skills, hacking, you name it.

Just not enough skill points.

Whereas Techs and Rockerboys can grab all sort of cool skills - Persuasion, Jury Rig, Demo tech, Wardrobe + Style, etc.

Solos also tend to lack empathy the longer they play in a campaign, as their bits get swapped for non human parts be design or accident, depending on how merciful your Ref is. So a lot of the romance in Cyberpunk, a lot of the human question, goes over their chromed head.

Also why quite a few of us want Roles to be less limited than in stock Cpunk..and have more skill points...

 

[Suhiira]

Suhiira generally runs and when (if) she plays, I don't think she's expressed a preference.

Netrunner/Techie (electrical-mechanic not medical).

My long-term character (i.e. been in several scenarios and short campaigns) is Japanese female named Nogitsune.

Cybereye (Anti Daz, Img Enhance, Tgt Scope, Times Square), Chipware Socket, Cybermodem Link, Interface Plugs (2), Kerenzikov (+2), Muscle & Bone Lace, Neural Processor, Smartgun Link.
INT 10, REF 9 [11], TECH 7, COOL 6, ATTR 6 [10], LUCK 6, MA 6, BODY 6 [8], EMP 8 [6]

Significant skills
Interface 8
Athletics 3
Aware/Notice 5
Basic Tech 5
Composition 4
Cyberdeck 4
Cybertech 2
Dodge 3
Education 5
Electronics 4
Electronic Security 5
Grooming 3
Handgun/SMG 5
Library Search 4
Martial Arts (TKD) 3
Persuasion 3
Pick Lock 3
Programming 7
Social 2
Stealth 5
Streetwise 2
System Knowledge 6
Wardrobe 3

I can hold my own in most fights not involving near/full borgs, that's why you hire Solos!
While I can't Jury-rig like a "real" Techie I can fix (or disable) most stuff.
And while hardly a Rockergirl I get by in most social situations.

I'm hoping I can create something similar to this for CP2077.
My big fear is that combat geared toward Solos thus making other professions difficult to play by default.

 

[Sardukhar]

I'm hoping I can create something similar to this for CP2077.
My big fear is that combat geared toward Solos thus making other professions difficult to play by default.

And before we trot off into our usual gameplay discussion, that's mine, too. Not (only) because of gameplay options being important a la Deus Ex, but because it seems to me Cyberpunk is about much more than trying to murdelate each other.

Having conversation with a fellow 'punker the other day, we were talking about the idea that CP2020 combat was so lethal and fast in large part because it shouldn't take up that much of your gaming/story experience.

I mean, it should be scary and deadly, but you should try to make it as rare as possible, outside CRPG load save, run alon until you are gunned down GTA style.

Which is fun, but there isn't a lot of trans/post humanistic romance, tragedy or rebellion in that.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Competent artists and writers
Permadeath.
Dynamic economy.
No gameplay elements differentiating NPCs and PCs.
No way to identify PCs except via customization (e.g. no username on top of your avatar).
No magical communications (e.g. whisper) --- let the hacker spe have his day in the sun.
No bias toward fairness, only storytelling.

 

[Sardukhar]

Competent artists and writers
Permadeath.
Dynamic economy.
No gameplay elements differentiating NPCs and PCs.
No way to identify PCs except via customization (e.g. no username on top of your avatar).
No magical communications (e.g. whisper) --- let the hacker spe have his day in the sun.
No bias toward fairness, only storytelling.

Uh, Poet? How is that specifically "Cyberpunk"?

 

[Calistarius]

Since I have not played the PnP RPG of CP my self befor, all I can do is google for what you can play as, read about it, and then give my opinion on what I found about it.

So... Roles... looking through all of the ones that I found on some page (12 of them, there might be more of course)... the role I am instantly drawn to is the Solo. That is my bread and butter... breakfast, brunch, lunch, dinner, candy, snacks, and any kind of liquid I like to drink to all of that... Milk probably being my nr 1 favorit when it comes to liquids! XD

Anyway... These kinds of roles/classes/professions/etc are the ones I prefer to play... Solo's, Warrior, Fighter, Soldier, and any other kind of role where combat is the characters main thing (usually melee combat in Fantasy, and ranged combat in Sci-Fi and/or "Modern day" types of rpg's). The two aspects of PnP RPG's (and rpg's in general) that I usually find to be the most fun, and the most interesting, is combat and the aspect of characters "leveling up/getting better at what they do/etc" kind of a thing. Probably more then 80-90% of all of my characters through out the years have been these kinds of characters.

Of course, there are a large number of other types of characters I am ok with playing as well. In CP's case roles like Cop, Crystaljock, Mac Tac Agent, Netrunner, Nomad, Panzerboy or Techie, fall under this "ok to play as" umbrella. But, when ever I play as anything that is not what I would prefer to play (like the Solo), then I still tend to make sure that my character is capable in a fight... or more accuratly... I make sure they are capable of winning a fight. This usually means that I will choice one or two combat skills which I will buy as much in as I would in the skills which are the main purpose of the choicen Role. Basicly, what I create with these "none Solo/Warrior/Fighter/Soldier/etc" kinds of roles... are hybrids.

So in CP's case, my Netrunners or Techies or "Whatever's", become more of the Netrunner/Solo-hybrid, or Techie/Solo-hybrid, or Whatever/Solo-hybrid kinds of roles. Because as mentioned I like combat in rpg's, but also because I strongly dislike my characters not being able to protect them selves when it comes to a fight. Certain roles I don't feel I have to tamper all to much with though, because they are either already Combat heavy. Like for example that Max Tac Agents role, which I asume are pretty darn combat heavy due to what they do. Or the roles are already a kind of hybrid from the start, like Cops, which I feel are probably a combination of combat and various logical and/or intellectual kinds of skills, and possibly some levels of social skills as well if you wish.

Finally, any role I perchive as being social kinds of roles, where the social aspect of a PnP RPG is where these roles thrive and excel at, are roles I usually stay away from compleatly. Because it is a part of PnP RPG's that I am not good at, even though I have played PnP RPG's for soon 20 years, and at the same time a part of the "PnP RPG experience" I find to be one of the least interesting parts of it all (in video games it does not bother me at all, since I personaly am not the one who have to speak in them XD ). So roles like Corporate, Fixer, Media and Rockerboy are roles which I will probably never play. And the only time I would play such a role is if I happend to get a very particular idea of a character that I would like to play, or if the GM has said that we all have to play a certain type of role due to X reason... other then that, I stay away from those roles. Cops are actually a role which sort of teeters on the edge for me of almost being to social... but luckily they do not have to rely on it I feel. The same "rule" apply here though, where if I ever where to play such a character... then they would be a Solo hybrid.

So yeah... I am 99% certain that I will play a Solo. Mostly because that is the kind of gameplay I like. But partly also because for a videogame, due to my nature of that I almost never replay any videogame (even the ones I like, or like a lot), then I much rather play through the game with the type of character I like to play... then play it with a role I don't care for as much, or even dislike in certain cases (I dislike playing mages for example, they are really boring to me)... since chances are I will never play the game again... or heck, even finish the game to begin with. XD

 

[Rawls]

what is Cyberpunk beyond Guns and Gear?

Cyberpunk 2020 was one of my favorite tabletop RPGs back in the day. My hope is that CP 2077 will be an amalgamation of open world environment that feels somewhat Dues Ex-like in style with the Witcher Series quality mechanics and story telling. I think part of the story should be about fighting oppression and dealing with corrupt corporate and governmental institutions. Part of the story should be about what it means to be human and how technology enhances and/or diminishes humanity. Part of the story should be simply about seeking personal connections in a personally disconnected world. It should be about all the tech noir tropes, with many other elements thrown in to keep it from being predictable.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

When it comes to Cyberpunk characters, I definitely prefer highly competent "specialists" with some added "cross-training" to round them out.The team I have for my comic, and that I sometimes use in games includes a Special Forces soldier, a Shinobi, a Runner (smuggler), a doctor of cyber-medicine. a "former Pirate" turned "world class" weapons merchant (runs a weapons conglomerate), A "cute as a button, Southern belle, Tomboy, Grease-monkey from Hell", her Netrunner brother, and a Washington DC Rockergirl.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Uh, Poet? How is that specifically "Cyberpunk"?

Well, the discussion kind of veer off into gameplay.

I don't think the roles are particularly cyberpunk (nomads --- nothing rural about cyberpunk).. It just seems like artificial constraints that you wouldn't find in books/anime/movies/etc.

I don't think it's good or bad,it all depends on CDPR and how they portray it.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

My big fear is that combat geared toward Solos thus making other professions difficult to play by default.

Or worse yet, all the professions are homogenized towards Solo's one way or another making the selection of professions largely a cosmetic feat rather than character defining one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

It's been too many years since I last played CP 2020, but I do remember that I always preferred a combat light characters to whom, if there was a choice, combat was the absolute last resort. Something of a Corp/Techie/Medic or the sort.

To me Cyberpunk was (and is) more about interaction with the provided world and narrative rather than combat and gadgets. It always felt to me that while the world is ripe with all kinds of gadgets, weapons and tech, they were to be taken as somethingm more commonplace rather than luxury and as such the focus we had always put those things more in the marginal away from the real central intent. Violence and decadence are prevalent threats (or opportunities, which ever way you might want to go about it), but the big picture always showed this dark and sad world where tragedies and success stories often go hand in hand and happiness is brief and mostly artificial or a fabrication. But that's from memories from around 15 years ago.

I don't know what CP could do to "revitalize" the genre other than how it approaches the narration. Shadowrun centers around the "runs", Deus Ex goes for pompous worldwide societal issues. Perhaps Cyberpunk should focus of telling "your" story about (like Mike put it) saving yourself, what ever that might mean to anyone. Where Night City, the missions and quests and other opportunities work as a reactive tool to reach that goal, though with the bonus that you don't need to use it if you can find the means not to, and if not meddling is part of what you consider "saving yourself" (which the game should reflect on in the end, just like any other possible route you might take).

 

[Suhiira]

Or worse yet, all the professions are homogenized towards Solo's one way or another making the selection of professions largely a cosmetic feat rather than character defining one.

Actually since the game will be generally single-player, like the Witcher series, I rather expect a certain amount of this will be necessary.

The Pen-n-paper game is designed with the intent of multiple players each playing different professions. ANY "class based" game system is. Thus these sorts of games have abilities/restrictions built into the character classes themselves. Take D&D for example, no thief - no lockpicking or trap removal; no cleric - no replenishing heals (sure you can use potions, but eventually you run out); etc. Almost all MMOs are designed along the same lines, ye olde "Holy Trinity". tank, DPS, heals.

While CP2077 may allow you to hire specialists (like Shadowrun or Pillars of Eternity) I doubt it will be a party based game. It will be, like Witcher, about you ... your decisions ... your actions ... your reputation. While CP2020 allows any character to pick any skill, other then the class specific Special Abilities (Authority - Streetdeal) even with a max stat and skill you can NEVER be as good as a given class at it's focus skill. And the game is (generally) designed so that you absolutely need that class advantage to regularly succeed at anything other then a moderately difficult skill check.

So, no, I don't want CP2077 to be a class based system like CP2020.

Does this mean I want it to be like the Elder Scrolls where any single character can max every skill in the game? Hell no!
I'm sure the game will have some sort of level/skill improvement system and you can easily give "enough" XP/skill points to become good at a few things but not everything.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

While CP2020 allows any character to pick any skill, other then the class specific Special Abilities (Authority - Streetdeal) even with a max stat and skill you can NEVER be as good as a given class at it's focus skill. And the game is (generally) designed so that you absolutely need that class advantage to regularly succeed at anything other then a moderately difficult skill check.

Well this is basically what I'm asking for, and fearing it won't happen.

What I mean is that you have the career skills tied to a profession and then the possible pickup skills on top of that - I can't remember how it went specifically - and those should work as the guidelines on how to get most out of your character, deviating providing a hardship and a limitation along with the new possibility. And I recall there being IP multipliers too for some "out of profession" skills that made them cost a lot more that the career list. And that's really enough for defining choice as far as I am concerned. It does something tangible while leaving overlapping open for business. I'm not a fan of strict class systems myself (which is why I don't really like DnD, for example) and I'm not asking for that, but I can see the benefits in what that sort of system tries to represent. There's no point in picking a profession for a couple of token differences between them; that only clutters up the system and helps create a loose and disjointed experience -- in that case, a better solution would be to leave them out and go full on with a classless system where you create an archetype of your own choosing without any label based hindrances.

 

[Suhiira]

The way skill improvements in SP2020 work is actually quite elegant.

Some skills require a minimum level in another skill (example Physics requires Mathematics 4+). Others (example Pilot: Fixed wing or Pharmaceuticals) are assigned a multiplier. During initial character generation these are ignored but later when it comes time to spend IP (CP2020s version of XP) to improve skills those skills cost x2 or x3 the normal number of IP to improve. In most cases this is used for highly technical (Physics) or diverse (Pilot: Fixed Wing) skills (for some reason Martial Arts styles all have a multiplier too ... I can't think of a single good reason for this). So becoming an expert in Handgun is far easier then becoming one in Physics.

I "borrowed" (read - blatantly stole) this system for my own PnP game rules because it works and makes sense.

In a single-player non-party based game you really need to use a classless system. But again, no reason to allow characters to become experts at every skill in the game.

 

[blank_redge]

(for some reason Martial Arts styles all have a multiplier too ... I can't think of a single good reason for this).

[tangent]

Because not all martial arts are built the same.

Between several different martial arts, you may have several tools that all do the same job, but it's likely that one martial art in particular excels in using the tool you're trying to use. Some martial arts teach a better, more mechanically efficient punch than many of its peers, some, a better, more mechanically efficient kick, some, a better, more mechanically efficient throw.

Between the efficacy of the toolset they teach, and the *variety* of tools a particular art teaches, I can see the justification for an IP multiplier.

[/tangent]

In a single-player non-party based game you really need to use a classless system. But again, no reason to allow characters to become experts at every skill in the game.

...meh? I still like the idea of the Role archetypes. I'm hoping that there will be different story trees, tied to different archetypes. Otherwise, it's just like playing Fallout 3, with the same challenges and same NPC interactions at every turn, with a limited number of variations on solving said challenges.