Triss vs Yennefer [NOW WITH SPOILERS. Oh, well.]

[OutgoingHermit]

*knocks over sippy cup*

Well, uh, I feel that Yennefer stuffing the corpse of a sentient unicorn to use as a sex prop is clearly demonstrative of a demented, perverse mind. In fact, considering that members of this particular species are noted for their nobility and propensity for saving Ciri in tough situations, it strikes me as the sort of thing that a Disney cartoon villain would do.

However, Triss still seems to like Philippa Eilheart? Not sure who to award good girl points to here.

 

[Avaricious]

Anyone else notice this in the artbook?
Thoughts?

 

[keldrath]

And that's the point. It shows the beginning of the interrogation and Triss clearly refuses to tell anything. Why in the world would she firstly reveal secrets and then refuse to tell anything?

It's ambiguous whether they got anything out of her specifically. What we do know is she calls them out at the summit regardless. Phillipa and Sile at least. I'm not really sure it's an important discussion though, it doesn't really matter either way.

 

[Gilthoniel]

Anyone else notice this in the artbook?
Thoughts?

They got it right.

 

[xxgwxx]

They got it right.

/thread



*Even though technically Yen doesn't appear in the gameS but in a game... (never forget,never forgive)

 

[Avaricious]

/thread



*Even though technically Yen doesn't appear in the gameS but in a game... (never forget,never forgive)

She is a character in Witcher 2, despite only appearing in flashbacks.

 

[OutgoingHermit]

Thread Premise: Triss vs Yennefer

Exercise: Compare how each of these characters undertakes the commission of a burglary, examining their motivations, methodology, and relative success at achieving their desired goals.

Yennefer of Vengerberg

Victim of Burglary: Ermion (a.k.a. Mousesack)

Motivation for Burglary: To obtain an artifact that she believes can help her discover Ciri's whereabouts.

Reason Burglary is Necessary: Because Yennefer does not want to share information with Ermion (a.k.a. Mousesack).

Accomplice for Burglary: Geralt of Rivia

Method Employed in Burglary: Having Geralt to solve a puzzle to open a secret door.

Collateral Damage: A sudden, violent storm over the Skellige Isles that may or may not have capsized boats or drowned fishermen. Further ramifications unknown, but presumably mitigated by druids.

Value of Theft: None. Nothing useful is learned from the mask. The next lead for Yennefer and Geralt is provided by Ermion (a.k.a. Mousesack) and is unrelated to the mask itself.


Triss Merigold

Victim of Burglary: Sile de Tansarville

Motivation for Burglary: To discover what Sile is up to as part of her attempts to clear Geralt's name.

Reason Burglary is Necessary: To say that these two characters don't like each other is an understatement.

Accomplice for Burglary: Cedric

Method Employed in Burglary: Asking Dethmold and Philippa stupid questions.

Collateral Damage: Cedric kills Sile's goon and then Letho kills Cedric.

Value of Theft: Her conversation with Phil is probably the last straw that breaks the camel's back over her relationship with the Lodge, but otherwise none.

Advantage: ?

I'll leave it to you, noble thread readers, to determine who shall receive the good girl point for this one. If you believe that the advantage should go to Yennefer, thank me for this post! If you believe that the advantage should go to Triss, RED point me for this post!

(This is not a shameless attempt to accumulate forum points, I swear.)

 

[Trireme]

It's a little offtopic, but :evil:

If Yenn didn't follow Tissaia order and didn't drop Ciri's safety for it - there would be no mess with this theme :disgust:

I agree completely! Yen exposed Ciri to danger and put her directly in front of Vilgefortz. The previous evening Yen and Triss were talking secretly about protecting Ciri and not letting people find out about her, then Yen drags Ciri out into the middle of a coup for all sides to see. After that, Yen's pride drove her to attempt a rescue by herself, resulting in her capture and becoming bait in a trap for Ciri. Given Yen's recklessness, it's no wonder that Triss believed the Lodge was a safer bet for Ciri.

 

[keldrath]

I agree completely! Yen exposed Ciri to danger and put her directly in front of Vilgefortz. The previous evening Yen and Triss were talking secretly about protecting Ciri and not letting people find out about her, then Yen drags Ciri out into the middle of a coup for all sides to see. After that, Yen's pride drove her to attempt a rescue by herself, resulting in her capture and becoming bait in a trap for Ciri. Given Yen's recklessness, it's no wonder that Triss believed the Lodge was a safer bet for Ciri.

You do realize Triss was part of the coup?

 

[C0bR]

You do realize Triss was part of the coup?

and didn't tell her "best friend" anything about it...

 

[daveyido]

and didn't tell her "best friend" anything about it...

Part of the deal with secret plots is that you don't run about telling everyone that you are taking part in a secret plot. If Yen was a traitor then Triss' friendship with her would be ended, if Yen was a neutral then she had nothing to fear.

 

[Redemyr]

You do realize Triss was part of the coup?

Not sure if I should discuss here as it seems to be only for W3. Anyhow in Thanned there were two "coups". Or secret plans, or whatever.

SPOILERS FROM TIMES OF CONTEMPT

One, the longest is planning, was orchestrated from mages aligned with Nifguard, Vilg, elf queen and scoiatel.

Goal: Kill as many mages as possible, capture Ciri.

Second: Organized by the mages of the north, trying to capture (not kill) mages aligned with the south and prevent first coup from taking place. Lodge not existent yet. Still Sigi wanted Geralt to take Ciri to the court in Redania. Triss was part of this group along with Phil, Keira, another ninfo sorc.

Neutrals: Tissaia, Yennefer, Ciri and I'm sure some others.

Developments:

Second group launches their preemptive strike first and succeeds in his goal to reduce the mages in Emyr's group, with one casualty or two.

Tissaia, sensing something was wrong (she somehow guesses the intentions of the North group) convinces Yen to bring Ciri to the halls.

Yen agrees, and brings Ciri over, where she does her prophesy stuff and also reveals that some military actions are taking place (north is attacking).

Tissaia gets mad, frees the captured mages in group Emyr and releases teleportation magic or something.

Emyr's group, once freed, resumes their plan. Elf queen opens the door to the cellar and elven commandos enter the fray.

Fight ensues, massive casualties on both sides.

Yennefer realices her mistake, tries to protect Ciri, gets captured.

Geralt tries to protect Ciri's escape, Fights Vilgefortz and loses.

Triss finds him among the dead, gets Tissaia's help in teleporting him to Brokilon.

Ciri takes the portal to the desert.

Tissaia, feeling guilty about her actions, kills herself.



Relevancy to this thread:

Yen puts Ciri in mortal danger, also indirectly causes the death of many mages.

Triss saves Geralt after he is left for dead.

 

[FarrySquall]

(This is not a shameless attempt to accumulate forum points, I swear.)

Dont know but i think you will get some RED point only (well i will click it if i haven't on phone right now :lol


@Redemyr i always wonder what exactly happen in Thadden coup, thank you for short summary

 

[Crazytwist]

So.... in short, both of them have done good and they have done bad ( usually thinking they are doing the right thing ) and in the end it just comes down to perspective when choosing one of them.

Also, the games are just as relevant as the books in the decision making, unless the choice in the game has nothing to do with the game. ( seemed like something to add )

P.s. Triss is clearly the right choice

@farrysquallko

I gave a thanks and redpoint. Mainly because I thought it would be amusing for some reason

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Yen puts Ciri in mortal danger, also indirectly causes the death of many mages.

Yen and Tissaia tried to avoided the conflict. They didn't want the mages to kill and fight each other. But yes, they failed. Better fail trying than being an asshat from the beginning, don't ya think?

By the way, Tissaia didn't get mad.

Triss saves Geralt after he is left for dead.

Triss was part of Philippa's gang, ready to fight and kill. Why talking and making peace (why even trying?) if you could just believe Philippa's BS? And she didn't even try to safe Ciri. She just cared about her Northern friends, as usual. The only reason why she saved Geralt was her old guilt motive...

 

[Redemyr]

Yen and Tissaia tried to avoided the conflict. They didn't want the mages to kill and fight each other. But yes, they failed. Better fail trying than being an asshat from the beginning, don't ya think?

This I can agree on. Keeping the balance in the mage community was a worthy goal. And if she was the only one taking a risk, it would be a worthy endeavor. The problem is that she places a third party at risk. A person Geralt entrusted with for her education and safety, not so that she can use for her own (albeit worthy) goals.

Triss was part of Philippa's gang, ready to fight and kill. Why talking and making piece (why even trying?) if you could just believe Philippa's BS? And she didn't even try to safe Ciri. She just cared about her Northern friends, as usual. The only reason why she saved Geralt was her old guilt motive...

Their plan was to subdue the mages, not kill them. Geralt had no business being there, nor Ciri. It was something internal between mages. The first happened to be there because of his "scruples" and the other because of a negligent tutor.

And Triss went out of her way twice to save him. Once by blinding him momentarily and another by straight out carrying him out of danger. And she did it because she cared about him.

 

[Trireme]

Yen and Tissaia tried to avoided the conflict. They didn't want the mages to kill and fight each other. But yes, they failed. Better fail trying than being an asshat from the beginning, don't ya think?

Yen and Tissaia were trying to protect the existing Council's authority (meaning their own authority since they were on it). Yen at least has ignorance as an excuse, since she presumably did not know about the Nilfgaard conspiracy, but she still rushed in arrogantly without knowing all the facts.

As far as Philippa's gang were concerned, they knew that Vilgefortz's faction was making a deal with Nilfgaard, which would have thrown away everything sacrificed at Sodden by the Northern mages. Philippa's original plan was bloodless except for a few accidents and broken noses. As a Sodden survivor, Triss had every reason to support Philippa and oppose the Nilfgaard faction.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

This I can agree on. Keeping the balance in the mage community was a worthy goal. And if she was the only one taking a risk, it would be a worthy endeavor. The problem is that she places a third party at risk. A person Geralt entrusted with for her education and safety, not so that she can use for her own (albeit worthy) goals.

She didn't put her at risk since she never thought that it would be a question of life and death for Ciri. How should Yen have known that Tissaia would break the spell? Yen's not responsible for all the other stupid mages, Triss being one of them.

Their plan was to subdue the mages, not kill them. Geralt had no business being there, nor Ciri. It was something internal between mages. The first happened to be there because of his "scruples" and the other because of a negligent tutor.

Ciri WAS a mage, so she was part it no matter what. She was right where she was supposed to be.

And Triss went out of her way twice to save him. Once by blinding him momentarily and another by straight out carrying him out of danger. And she did it because she cared about him.

If she really cared about him and understood him she would have tried to safe Ciri instead. Geralt doesn't give a fuck about his own life if just Ciri is safe. But that's something Triss never learns...

---------- Updated at 04:00 AM ----------

Yen and Tissaia were trying to protect the existing Council's authority (meaning their own authority since they were on it). Yen at least has ignorance as an excuse, since she presumably did not know about the Nilfgaard conspiracy, but she still rushed in arrogantly without knowing all the facts. .

What facts? Without Tissaia breaking the spell all the things probably would have gone down differently. Yen couldn't know that by any possible means. So she was neither arrogant nor ignorant in this sitution. She basically just misjudged the sitution. A very human flaw, yes, but nothing that can't be forgiven.

 

[Redemyr]

She didn't put her at risk since she never thought that it would be a question of life and death for Ciri. How should Yen have known that Tissaia would break the spell? Yen's not responsible for all the other stupid mages, Triss being one of them.

She was there to foil one of group of mages's plan. True, she didn't know for certain it was going to end that way. But with mages you never know, hence the risk.

Ciri WAS a mage, so she was part it no matter what. She was right where she was supposed to be.

True, but did Ciri care about the fates of Vilgefortz and Co? Or did Yen decide for her?

If she really cared about him and understood him she would have tried to safe Ciri instead. Geralt doesn't give a fuck about his own life if just Ciri is safe. But that's something Triss never learns...

Was there a chance for her to save Ciri? I don't recall such a scene...

Yen couldn't know that by any possible means. So she was neither arrogant nor ignorant in this sitution. She basically just misjudged the sitution. A very human flaw, yes, but nothing that can't be forgiven.

True, but she knew that SOMETHING was up, just not the extent of it. And she brought Ciri to prevent it.

Anyhow let's drop it. I forgive Yen too.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

She was there to foil one of group of mages's plan. True, she didn't know for certain it was going to end that way. But with mages you never know, hence the risk.

LOL, you could say that about everyone...with soldiers you never know...with Dandelion you never know...with druids you never know...with Geralt you never know...with Yen you never know...with cat XYZ you never know...

True, but did Ciri care about the fates of Vilgefortz and Co? Or did Yen decide for her?

Did Geralt ever asked what she cared about? And after all, she's still a child. It's up on her parents to decide on that. But I can't recall that she protested too much when she went with Yen to the mages. I can't recall her screaming or crying...

Was there a chance for her to save Ciri? I don't recall such a scene...

There only was a chance for her to save Geralt because Sapkowski wanted it that way. But why was she there to safe him instead of Ciri? Maybe because she searched for him instead of Ciri? Hm....

I love these theoretical discussions incl. arbitrary arguments.

True, but she knew that SOMETHING was up, just not the extent of it. And she brought Ciri to prevent it.

Yeah, why not? Yen knew that Ciri had to face life sooner or later anyway. There she was with her and even Tissaia. What better setting for protecting her? That it would go THAT sideways was just unexpected. Misconception, indeed, but that's about it. Shit happens. Besides, she didn't know at that point that any mage knew about Ciri's real heritage. She definitely didn't know that Vilgefortz knew. And she paid for that, more than everyone else (and much MUCH more than Triss who didn't suffer at all).

Anyhow let's drop it. I forgive Yen too.

Nice. But I don't forgive Triss. Not after she refused to save Ciri's and Geralt's life during the pentalogy, still believing Philippa's BS...