Age of braindance decadence: We didn’t get rid of our problems, we multiplied them

[volsung]

Scope this datafeed, volsung84...we are closer than you might think...

http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/09/entering-the-neurotech-era/

If by closer you mean one step in a million step race, then yes

That's a mass media article presenting a summary of some achievements in brain-computer interfaces. The visual system is the better understood neural system of them all, which is still impressive but not surprising considering its highly computational nature. But by producing devices that stimulate the hippocampus or prefrontal cortex we are just at the beginning of understanding how it is that information IS coded. To begin with, even when the hippocampus is involved in long-term memory consolidation, it doesn't mean that IS where memories are "stored" (whatever that means, since it's not fully understood).

Reading visual stimuli from the visual cortex, while an amazing feat, is like reading raw data from an signal-emitting device. The challenge for "braindancing" is decoding data that is already store in some form, that is not yet understood.

The second half of the article is pretty much personal opinion and speculation

 

[rmtuggle]

Thing is, we are on the doorstep. That's the point of that article and they even state that they are working with "crude" technology.

There's a fellow in France who is a paraplegic. He, at last read, was using a rudimentary neural processor so send signals to implants in his legs so that he can walk again. I'll have to see if I can dig up some new info on him and find out how he is doing now, since he has been working on this for a few years now.

We already have viable cyber-optics. In fact, I believe there were a couple of court cases that arose from that, not because of the tech, but because of the discrimination that recipients of these optics faced from other people and certain businesses.

Think about it like this...as an Army recruiter once told me, when discussing what tech we see in the media...when you see it in the media, its about 5 years out of date.

Still, thanks for the unspoken challenge...here are a few more links that may show how far we have advanced along this path....

http://www.neurotechnetwork.org/

http://www.neurotechreports.com/

These are just a few and have links to other documents. What? You thought I was going to do all the work for you? lol. Anyway, much like I said, we are on the doorstep of the cyber world. I will meet you half way and propose that how close we actually are is a subjective ideal and depends on the perspective of the individual.

 

[volsung]

I agree, we may be at the doorstep, but what happens is that neural circuitry is a complex, dynamical system and is very difficult to approach. Processing and storage are intertwined, and the location and form of specific knowledge representations is yet to be discovered.

Just three years ago, in a class, a physics/neurophysiology professor from Rockefeller University was very skeptical about brain-machine interfaces, back then specifically because of the bottleneck caused by the limited bandwidth of these mechanisms. Bandwidth and latency.

As I said, great things have been achieved in the field of prosthetics but probably because they are mostly signal-driven. Actually finding, extracting and decoding knowledge is a different animal.

I have been working on data representation models to optimize spiking neural network simulations on specific kinds of parallel HPC hardware, but this whole discussion makes me want to switch to this other kind of thing.

 

[rmtuggle]

I see...Interesting. And I mean that sincerely. For various reasons of my own...much like many of us here, I have been waiting for "true" cyber for a long time. And in recent years, my interest has shifted slightly from cybernetics as we perceived them, to nanotech.

Hmm...I wonder what paths I could open up, careerwise, if I were to follow my drafting & design degree with one in nano...

 

[dyrewulf]

Have you seen Strange Days? Its the same idea of a braindance

Yep. One of my favorite movies.

There are a lot of things that might become possible with Braindance technology. Braindance is recording and playback. Is it analog or digital? (this is important!)

If it is digital, than it is data and can be processed. A computer system with enough complexity would be able to process these recordings. If the technology is new, the tools would be very primitive. If the tech is old, we might have systems that can edit memories, or splice them with someone else's, or possibly be able to create new memories. An advanced AI might be able to create simulations in real-time. Think about how simple "paint" programs were on early PCs, and look at things like Photoshop now. Now we can edit videos on our home computers. Now add in other "tracks" for other sensory input and emotions and perhaps even subconscious thoughts. Lets not even get into subliminals!

However, I suspect that the recordings are "analog." That is, they are stored on a format that is not processable by computers. Perhaps digitalizing it is beyond the capabilities of computers in 2077. Think of VHS tapes. They used a magnetic tape. Maybe brain "waves" are imprinted on a high density media. Maybe record and playback is all that is possible. If editing is possible, it would be like editing film, or mixing music. (Read "Kiln People" by David Brin)

The major flaw in the technology is that not everyone's brains work the same. The brain develops evolutionary: it learns and adapts over a lifetime and no one builds synapses the same way, even if they are genetically the same and they have the same experiences. There would have to be an intermediary device. In CP2020 we called it the Neuralware Processor. Basically, in order to make a recording, you would have to CALIBRATE the recorder to a set of standards. Depending on the depth of the recording that could take a lot of time. Visual and audio "tracks" are probably the most important. Once a device is calibrated to an individual, it tags those "tracks" on the recording.

Playback would require the same calibration. One person's "visual track" may not translate to another persons "visual track" but the machine makes the connections between the recordings visual track and the recipient's visual track . Look up Syntesthesia: that's what would happen without an intermediary device. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

 

[ChaosWolf1982]

http://frugaldad.com/2011/11/22/media-consolidation-infographic/

Seems we're already in the era of megacorporations. Wonder how long it'll be before we see the first wars between Disney and Viacom?

 

[tacticalhunter]

Seems we're already in the era of megacorporations. Wonder how long it'll be before we see the first wars between Disney and Viacom?

So they didn't start already? Surprising.

 

[rmtuggle]

http://frugaldad.com/2011/11/22/media-consolidation-infographic/

Seems we're already in the era of megacorporations. Wonder how long it'll be before we see the first wars between Disney and Viacom?

So they didn't start already? Surprising.

Well, considering how the big D is buying up everything thats making money...who knows how long it will be before they do go after Viacom...lol

 

[goopit]

[video=youtube;7qYL_KT06-U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qYL_KT06-U[/video]

 

[coverstorey]

If I were trying to tie together the trailer and braindancing, my theory is that one of the storylines in CP2077 will involve BD's with post-hypnotic suggestions, so after the user has viewed the sim, they can later be triggered to do something (like a ghost-hack from Ghost in the Shell, but without a broadcast connection). The character will be tasked with tracking down who's releasing these tainted BD's, which will involve sampling more than a few BD's for clues. In the trailer, the girl was the victim of a tainted BD, then was recruited by law enforcement to aid in tracking down the maker. This would tie into the theme of a character rising up from the gutters of the future to establish themselves as a living legend. Just a theory....

 

[darcler]

As interesting and important social and technological context of braindancing is, I would like to stress it's tremendous potential in character building. Experiencing - literally - other people, virtually becoming other people - it's not solely a form of (perhaps decadent) entertainment, and I would absolutely hate to see it only as such in CP2077. It's intimate on a level not even lovers can experience, it's becoming someone else, seeing worlds through his eyes, feeling his experiences, thinking his thoughts. On one side it can facilitate absolute - or as nearly absolute as humanly possible - understanding of people, individual as well as in general, depending on how extensive experiences in braindancing one has. Such knowledge, besides simply knowing all the secrets of others, can result in one becoming expert manipulator, which can be used for various purposes, some of them good, some bad. But there is another side: impact such experiences can have on braindancer's psyche. Can one loose his sense of 'I'? How deeply can one be shaped by thoughts and experiences of others, when they virtually become his own?

Seeing the feature got its own thread on the forum seem to indicate that CDPR believes it's important for the game to warrant its own discussion. And I hope it really will be important - if not in the game itself, then in the world at the very least. I would hate braindancing being shallowed out to mere pastime. Seeking similarities to movies or games seems not entirely right, as they are basically mediums for telling stories of other people and events. Braindancing is not about telling a story, it's about breaching the single most important thing that defines us as individual humans - isolation of one's mind.

The topic is huge, I only grazed the tip of the iceberg. Braindancing is not only technological or social thing, it's also moral, philosophical, psychological, even religious. I know it's only a game, but why shouldn't it delve deeply into such matters? Anyway, I appeal to Mike and the Developers (sounds like a band name ) to at least provide something more than mere entertainment; let the game be mature all the way, and I will be a happy, happy man

 

[Sjakal]

If you know and feel the same things as another person, you ARE for most intents and purposes that person. With cyberware allowing you to look like your favorite celebrity, with braindancing you can now also copy their experiences and thoughts. At some points the copycats might possibly even do a better job of portraying the celebrity than the original does. And that's for civilian purposes.

For military purposes I bet braindancing could be used to really get under the skin of another person; monitoring their behavior and dealings with others, of course not in real time, but you would get all their feelings and experiences and know them like your own. It would allow you to be the perfect agent, taking out the target and taking over their appearance and behavior to use and abuse to the benefit of yourself or your employer.

Objects have been stolen and plagiarized, software IS being pirated and reverse-engineered, and now it seems, even people are not safe anymore either. If others can copy and know your experiences and behavior, what is left to make you unique from the masses? Good stuff, could go a long way with delving into this, like darcler said. Somewhat like reverse simulated experiences from GitS I suppose, with all its benefits and problems.

 

[Sardukhar]

Some of these question are raised really well in another RPG I quite like, Eclipse Phase. I often think of EP as the science-fiction setting of 2020.

Questions of who are you if you are a clone or a net-only AI presence are central to the plot and your character. Braindancing has become very much a mainstream pleasure and caused a whole host of new questions to arise.

For anyone interested in cyberpunk or braindancing, Eclipse Phase is worth a look.

 

[darcler]

Some of these question are raised really well in another RPG I quite like, Eclipse Phase. I often think of EP as the science-fiction setting of 2020.

Questions of who are you if you are a clone or a net-only AI presence are central to the plot and your character. Braindancing has become very much a mainstream pleasure and caused a whole host of new questions to arise.

For anyone interested in cyberpunk or braindancing, Eclipse Phase is worth a look.

Haven't heard of it before, but looks nice. And it seems it will feel cool too Thanks for the info.

Not to be totally OT, I can imagine that making braindance recordings wouldn't be a morally easy process. After all, what sane person would willingly agree to share his very soul with the whole world? It's like an ultimate exhibitionism. One can also assume that many braindance recordings would come from very unwilling victims - this, in turn, would be like an ultimate rape. I'm curious how the devs will come at the subject.

 

[Sardukhar]

I could see several levels of market, too. Entry level, where you see and hear and smell what the subject does.

Premium level, where you see, hear, smell, and feel what the subject does, but remain in your head.

Elite level, where you also respond as the subject.

And black market or pre-cut braindance, where the levels aren't attenuated or hyped according to producer's needs. Maybe, at this level, you have a chance to think what the subject thinks. Truly be one with your idol.

 

[darcler]

Yes, I think such approach would be the most logical and believable from many perspectives. Makes sense. And it allows placing the technology in the society without it feeling over-the-top. I was actually somewhat afraid that we'd be shown society not too different from ours today, just having new ways of entertaining itself, while in fact there'll be a technology that should affect the society as hell.

 

[Sardukhar]

. I was actually somewhat afraid that we'd be shown society not too different from ours today, just having new ways of entertaining itself, while in fact there'll be a technology that should affect the society as hell.

You know, this is an excellent point.

It's one of the flaws of Cyberpunk 2020 that although there are substantial differences between their society and ours, it can be difficult to clearly demonstrate the changes.

We have cars, TV, Internet, guns, cities, corporations, fast food and grey-area conflict states. So do they.

Always a challenge for the GM.

 

[darcler]

Many (if not most) SF realities have problems with that. It's one thing to come up with a cool technology, but it's something else to really think what and how the technology would affect. And it's not only about technologies, but also event like meeting aliens, colonizing planets and so on. Granted that most SF works are simply not oriented towards "what-if" kind of reality, where authors explore how world could look like if we develop this technology or that technology, or even what would happen if all the stars suddenly disappear. This is the more "ambitious" and "artistic" part of SF. The other part is simply a background, where SF is used to provide the wow factor, something exotic, something that will give readers (palyers/viewers) chance to briefly escape their own reality, the reality of the world around them, the reality of their mundane problems and worries. (Which, now that I think about that, would also be what braindancing is all about. Thus anoter question rises: why would people want braindances in the first place? Is it something like reality shows today? Do people have not enogh emotions in their lives? Are their lives too oridinary, too mundane?)

Nothing wrong with the second approach, obviously, if only it's made well enough, is logical and cohesive rather that a mixture of random SF tropes, which I personally hate. However, CP reality is just too detailed and extensive to simply be a background, and I wouldn't like it very much if the devs would use it only as such.

 

[dyrewulf]

The number one question is "How can Braindance technology be exploited?"

Because it will. In the dark future, wars are not always bullets, bombs and drones strikes. Information and Culture are also weapons (as well as targets.)

Governments, crime syndicates, corporations, the media, and religious extremists will all be using this technology to further their goals. On top of that, you will have your artists, your underground, your alt-culture, hackers, and street fixers using and delivering this tech below the radar of popular culture.

Here is my challange: develop some guidelines as to how this technology works, and provide some limitations or rules. Give it to a hundred different writers to base a short story around the technology. Every writer will have his or her own take on it, and exploit it in an interesting manner.That would only be the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Decatonkeil]

I don't really see the connection between brandance and videogames so many people want to see. I see it more as trash tv, the very germ of this being the simstim of Gibson. If at least Count Zero, a young boy, consumed it... but it's his momma. Being it an unidirectional link the user only consumes. And it's also very meaningful that the prototypical simstim production was the lives of successful people and the consumer has no say or no do in attaining this success, like he or she could do in an interactive videogames. So games give us a sense of achievement while making us feel more 'badass' than we are/will ever be, but at least they demand our input, skill, decission making... for those who bash on videogames (or those of us who can even bash on SOME gamer attitudes while being gamers ourselves) this is a whole new degree of pathetic, recognising one can't achieve anything even in a sumulation.

Now, as they are all passive and there's only visual and aural stimulation we can receive from a videogame, I 'fear' they will only become videos. Maybe the 'feel like piloting' element can be attained by allowing us to bob our heads/eyes a little... but that might be giving too much into making it a bidirectional link.

Maybe the key is to use it also in a similar fashion to how videogames like Forbidden Siren did with second sight. Think about it as the parts in Neuromancer where Case could turn his attention away from the Matrix every once in a while to check on the sensorial feed from Molly when assaulting Sense/net and Straylight Villa. In Deus Ex we could check on some yet unvisited rooms of complexes through security cameras, not only deactivate them, so maybe having walking cameras...