Bioware borrowed A LOT from the Witcher?

[EmperorZorn]

Is it not the original plot of DAO an invasion of demons? of creatures coming from the depths? I mean, I'm not an devoted fan of DA saga, just an irresolute fan, but I can still remembrer that one of the bigest unbiased reviews was about the lack of continuity of the original argument.

Bioware maybe deserves all our doubts and discredit that they have created but... poor original about an invasion of demons? It started this way in DAO and it was a great success.

You have a point.

If you boil it down to that, it's the same.
But if you take a look at the way it's being narrated there is a difference.

The concept of a recurring Blight and Grey Wardens specially trained to fight it every
thousand years or so is far more interesting than demons falling from the sky to destroy the world.
Because the latter one has been done a million times already.

 

[secondchildren]

A few things in this world hasn't been already told\done. The entire Tolkien saga isn't original at all, fact the subsequent fantasy all took inspiration from it should make us think about something. Even TW series isn't safe from that. Fantasy clichè are everywhere.

The point (in my humble opinion) is not how original is the story you want to tell, but how you tell. If the plot is linear, the result is dull. Both DAO and ME3 specifically has the same plot scheme: wander around to gather the forces, reunite the differences and kick the monstrous evil back into the other dimension.
Maybe the most original game I've played is still Planescape:Torment. The plot is so complicate and well constructed that I doubt it can be done something similar nowadays for the mainstream and the masses. Eventually P:T isn't for everyone.

Anyway, this is a lot off topic. Op's point was about similarities between the latest Bioware's games and TW. Imo, there aren't.

 

[Bellator Pius Gratus]

'Tis difficult to discuss since all stories follow pretty much the same narratological patterns. Hero/protagonist dashes off/are sent on an adventure/journey/mission going after a prize/cure or solution to a problem or after the cause of a problem, which often is the antagonist and his ilk.

However, I an old avid gamer, am having difficulties comparing Bioware who developed Baldur's Gate in 1998(or was it 1999?), and the developers of CD Projekt RED, whom all probably grew up playing it. Well they probably did. See where I'm getting here? It has been said before, that the market is generic and you opt for whatever story that sells and on and on, but regarding the sheer years and great titles Bioware has released. And wait a minute...Witcher 1(which I love)was released on old Aurora Engine fron Neverwinter Nights by...yep Bioware.

Sorry to go off topic or anything, I love both CD Projekt RED and Bioware, and both have developed great fantasy games that has meant the world to me.

I am still surprised however to hear that there are people(those I have met are WoW fans) believing that...well that Games Worksshop has pilfered ideas from Blizzard(yeah right) and that orcs being green was Blizzard's idea when Games Workshop had released green orcs to the world a decade prior.

 

[duskey]

I played baldur's gate 1 and 2 on the playstation and I found it generic and boring as hell.
Maybe I played the wrong game?

Yes. You played Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 1 & 2, which don't hold a candle to the first games in the series. The Baldur's Gate that people are more often referring to, is the 1998 original for PC and Mac (and Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn)

 

[Blothulfur]

On the surface maybe, but deep down they're as similar as day and night. No point discussing them in the same context.

 

[guy_onthemoon]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I guess I'm a new gamer (I'm only 20) so I don't have much experience with the older Bioware games, as the "older" ones for me is the first Mass Effect because I just don't think I had the mind to understand RPG's like Balder's Gate when I was...I think 5? Lol

Or 4. The situations and characters as you describe them are so conventional and common to fantasy writing that it would actually be surprising if the games were not similar in these respects.Player character drawn from a special caste or guild, with special powers?Enemy only revealed as an immense threat after the player character investigates a seemingly isolated crime?Popular disbelief and political conflict obscuring the real threat?Tolkien elves?Common to maybe 10 or 15 games, not just two series. This is just not evidence that either copied the other at all.What sets the Witcher series apart is that of those things, only Geralt's special status as a Witcher is of central importance. The crime, the enemy, the kings and politics and wars, the racism: these are context Geralt must deal with, but they are not his story. His story is entirely and intensely personal. It is the fight to recover the life that was stolen from him and to protect the people who are dear to him.Since Bioware made no attempt to copy or recreate a story of that kind, but instead produced a fantasy story that follows conventions common in the genre, I can't concur with your thesis that they intentionally copied The Witcher.

Excellent point. I guess there comes a point where nothing is really "original" in a since because something has always been done before. The similarities I pointed out are probably just archetypes for the fantasy genre, which you stated.

I actually tried for a minute to sit down and make up something that didn't follow the typical storypath you laid out and it was very difficult Lol. Know that I think about it, about almost every single main character in almost every game, book, movie is a part of a special sect so they can be set apart from everyone else. Either that or they're apart of a non-special sect and they do something amazing to differentiate themselves from everyone else.

But the latter part of what you said is also key as the Witcher is about Geralt getting back his life that he lost and he just happens to get caught up in all the riff raff that's going on around him. Whereas in other story lines you are basically the "chosen one" and you must save the world from (insert x super villain here)

In this article you can learn about relationship between Bioware and CD Projekt RED and the big role Bioware played in CDPR's history.

Thanks for the link on the article, interesting read.


I think I'm going to playthrough Baldur's Gate once and we'll see how it goes. I have to admit I am one of those gamers who will put off a game if it is not aesthetically pleasing to me. I guess I take graphics for granted too much lol.

I guess in the end everyone borrows something from somebody because of the amount of ideas that have been done, it's just truly impossible, or close to it, to come up with something really original. I thought Tolkien's stuff was the archetype that led the fantasy genre to become so big. Guess not

 

[CoronerZg]

Mass Effect is a different story. Bioware melded Star War and Star Trek to great effect, but it appears they stole the story elements from Free Space 2.

Actually they both stole from Star Control.

And with Mass Effect the word "stole" can't really describe it enough.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh6PGp9G2W8

 

[vivaxardas2015]

Actually they both stole from Star Control.

And with Mass Effect the word "stole" can't really describe it enough.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh6PGp9G2W8

Hah, it is nearly unbelievable. I just lost any remaining respect for ME. Is it that Bioware simply can't write stuff on their own, or simply do not bother because there is a lot to steal that was written already? And please, do not post a synopsis to some old game DAO stole from, let me keep at least one illusion.

 

[secondchildren]

I guess in the end everyone borrows something from somebody because of the amount of ideas that have been done, it's just truly impossible, or close to it, to come up with something really original. I thought Tolkien's stuff was the archetype that led the fantasy genre to become so big. Guess not

On the contrary it's like so. Tolkien is the official father of modern fantasy. The Wizards of Coast guys (who invented Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) took inspiration from Tolkien's universe and build the most popular table rpg. The rest all gather a piece of both to make their own fantasy world, but aside a few exceptions, every modern fantasy writers\artists must be thankful to Tolkien first.
Moorcock, Sapkowski and Martin aren't that exception here, they also owe a lot to the father of fantasy. Moorcock's Elric specifically is heavily inspired by Tolkien's Turin Turambar, a character from the Silmarillion.
Tolkien main plot is always about this big evil to be defeated, once is the Morgoth, another is a dragon, another is Sauron... all his successors took inspiration from this, so guess what the result is

 

[Borch3Dohlen.380]

But there is a huge differnce between the plots
In DA the Archdemon is just evil he wants what ever he wants...a classic fantasy story. A bit lame i would say. I think the story itself in DA isnt good no not really. Its just makes that what Lotr makes where ever it can.
In the Witcher there is no really totaly evil. Nilfgaard isnt evil nor Keadwen nor the Scoia'tael nor the wild hunt.
Why isnt the wild hunt just evil ? Red the books. They are old elves (in german the normal elves are named "elfen" and these elves are named "erlen") of a other world. They are searching for Ciri because she is the elder blood a descendant of lara dorren. They want her to save their world from an apocalypse but thats just what they officaly are saying in their kingdom. The real reason is power and influence. (the loge /sorceresses , nilfgaard and the other kingdoms want exactly the same ; most of them dont really know the real nature of lara dorrens gen) But its the king of the wild hunt how wants that. He killed the old elve king with poisin. This king wanted the same : Ciri.
But was to naiv and foolish to be the head of this kingdom.
Ciri escaped the king of the wild hunt (i for got his real name)
but not only in switching worlds no in switching times too.
And thats cause why there is a wild hunt they are searching for 1000 of years after ciri.
The emperor of nilfgaard ; all the other kings or the loge arent lesser evil then the wild hunt.
But i agree with the scoia'tael
but the witcher games are based on books and so the scoia'tael are much more older then the dalish.

 

[Borch3Dohlen.380]

Actually they both stole from Star Control.

And with Mass Effect the word "stole" can't really describe it enough.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh6PGp9G2W8

that shocked me a bit
but bioware can write dialogs and charakters i think
but now i dont know what i should think about bioware
the DA story is clear and unspirated ripped from Lotr but ME i thought ... D:

 

[iamawesome]

bioware sucks...end of story.
Now they just care about day 1 DLC and milking the fans dry.

 

[didymos1120]

On the contrary it's like so. Tolkien is the official father of modern fantasy. The Wizards of Coast guys (who invented Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) took inspiration from Tolkien's universe and build the most popular table rpg.

Um, no. WoTC didn't even exist until 1990. Gary Gygax created DnD way back in 1973, and he and a partner founded TSR to publish it. ADnD was created a few years later, and published in 1978. As far as the Tolkien stuff in DnD...yeah it was there but it wasn't like the setting revolved around it. It was more just pasted in as something familiar to fantasy fans of the period, along with all sorts of other stuff from world mythology, pulp fiction like Howard and Lovecraft, Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories, etc. In fact DnD didn't really have a coherent setting.

 

[raeldrikp]

If they had lifted anything, I wish they had lifted the moral system from the witcher series. As much as I liked having my own story in ME and DA, christ the moral choices were so fucking stupid 90% of the time, and I'm only saying 90 to be generous. Either A be a complete dick, B be a complete saint, or C be like B except insert sarcastic line.

 

[randyrhoads]

I don't agree with OP, there are hundreds of games that use the same formula (player part of a small group, up against unassailable odds, etc) it's become a cookie cutter for a lot of games.

 

[sardas]

Just recently found a great video article about the monomyth a.k.a. the Hero`s journey:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhk4N9A0oCA[/media]

There is no "stealing", just "borrowing" the good ideas (which goes both ways), and in case of DA and elven ghettos, i would say that Bioware borrowed it from mr. Sapkowski, not CDPR)
I`m more into a classic Bioware games, cause when they`re trying to make something "mature" it looks a little bit clumsy). Besides that, i have a feeling that many games nowadays trying to be "mature" and "morally ambiguous" so hard, that i`m starting to miss colorful games with the simple "ancient evil" plot. So i`m looking forward for the DA:I =).

And btw - i`ve heard many times, mostly in mainstream media, that Witcher universe is "something similar to Game of Thrones", which is understandable but still incorrect, cause the first book in Witcher series was published in 1986 (if i`m not mistaken) and "A Game of Thrones" was published 10 years after. Just saying)

 

[CostinRaz]

With regards to Bioware stealing from The Witcher. I'd argue they think they stole was the way the elves were and that's about it.

Actually they both stole from Star Control.

And with Mass Effect the word "stole" can't really describe it enough.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh6PGp9G2W8

What the fuck? Really.

And they Walters ruined the ME universe, hah. So much for Sovereign being badass right?

 

[GuyNwah]

Just recently found a great video article about the monomyth a.k.a. the Hero`s journey:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhk4N9A0oCA[/media]

There is no "stealing", just "borrowing" the good ideas (which goes both ways), and in case of DA and elven ghettos, i would say that Bioware borrowed it from mr. Sapkowski, not CDPR)
I`m more into a classic Bioware games, cause when they`re trying to make something "mature" it looks a little bit clumsy). Besides that, i have a feeling that many games nowadays trying to be "mature" and "morally ambiguous" so hard, that i`m starting to miss colorful games with the simple "ancient evil" plot. So i`m looking forward for the DA:I =).

And btw - i`ve heard many times, mostly in mainstream media, that Witcher universe is "something similar to Game of Thrones", which is understandable but still incorrect, cause the first book in Witcher series was published in 1986 (if i`m not mistaken) and "A Game of Thrones" was published 10 years after. Just saying)

P.S. Pardon my English, please.

P.P.S. Looking forward for the Game of Thrones RPG from CDPR)

Mainstream media are served by copy writers with no wide experience of literature and no sense of history, and they have to deliver stories that are understood by an audience with no more than their own. They compare the Witcher saga to "A Game of Thrones" because that is an easy and superficial comparison, no matter how false or misleading it is.

Apart from the fantasy elements, which are a way of connecting wih Sapkowski's audience, the Witcher stories are a lot more like Dashiell Hammett's stories of the Continental Op. Geralt is no hero within the framework of the "monomyth", nor is he an antihero. He's a man in the line of slaying monsters for a living without becoming one himself.

 

[guy_onthemoon]

But there is a huge differnce between the plots
In DA the Archdemon is just evil he wants what ever he wants...a classic fantasy story. A bit lame i would say. I think the story itself in DA isnt good no not really. Its just makes that what Lotr makes where ever it can.
In the Witcher there is no really totaly evil. Nilfgaard isnt evil nor Keadwen nor the Scoia'tael nor the wild hunt.
Why isnt the wild hunt just evil ? Red the books. They are old elves (in german the normal elves are named "elfen" and these elves are named "erlen") of a other world. They are searching for Ciri because she is the elder blood a descendant of lara dorren. They want her to save their world from an apocalypse but thats just what they officaly are saying in their kingdom. The real reason is power and influence. (the loge /sorceresses , nilfgaard and the other kingdoms want exactly the same ; most of them dont really know the real nature of lara dorrens gen) But its the king of the wild hunt how wants that. He killed the old elve king with poisin. This king wanted the same : Ciri.
But was to naiv and foolish to be the head of this kingdom.
Ciri escaped the king of the wild hunt (i for got his real name)
but not only in switching worlds no in switching times too.
And thats cause why there is a wild hunt they are searching for 1000 of years after ciri.
The emperor of nilfgaard ; all the other kings or the loge arent lesser evil then the wild hunt.
But i agree with the scoia'tael
but the witcher games are based on books and so the scoia'tael are much more older then the dalish.

This explained A LOT. I really, honestly really want to read the books. I actually have the Last Wish, but I really just suck at reading. I actually play RPG games (and some action ones) because they're like my interactive books. I think my attention span for reading is just not there. I only read for school when I absolutely have too and even then I don't lol. I'm really trying to change the habit as it's gonna hurt me in the long run.

Anyway I still don't understand why the Wild Hunt goes across the continent killing people looking for Ciri. Do they somehow think Yennifer will help them in finding Ciri?

Great explanation on the no true villain in the Witcher, however I think it's all on your perspective. I think the anyone at any point can become a villain. The Kaedwenis were villains from my vantage point because they were trying to take over a land and oppose a state of freedom. Their intentions might or not be different from others lust for power and influence but what they were doing was not right in my books so I classify them as "villains" I guess.
But as they say if you don't understand your enemy then you underestimate them. In both Mass Effect and the Witcher, deep down the lead character and those around him want to know why the Reapers and the Wild Hunt are doing what they are doing.

---------------------------

And I don't really think Bioware is all that bad. Sure they have lost some of their glory from their olden days but you have to take things into perspective. Look at all the other game producers out there that make cookie cutter games and put them out every year with little change to them. Or the ones that use horrible coding, or others that don't try to push the envelope of gaming. Blizzard, Infinity Ward, Treyarch, Bethesda's commercialization of the Elder Scrolls (otherwise I think they're pretty solid). Most of the time it's the big publishers that force these companies to be like this but still.
Bioware's created some quality games that are trying to advance story-telling in gaming to the multitudes.

 

[Sirnaq]

Besides that, i have a feeling that many games nowadays trying to be "mature" and "morally ambiguous" so hard, that i`m starting to miss colorful games with the simple "ancient evil" plot. So i`m looking forward for the DA:I =).

It is hard to argue with "feelings" but i can't agree with that statement. Heroic writing is all over the place in videogames. It's actually hard to find a game that follows any literary tradition other than heroic and realistic with realistic being in minority.