I still have no idea, why do you think that Ciri is cold to Yen. The fact that CDPR didnt show them chatting and hugging all the time means nothing. And when Ciri has suspicions toward Avallach she goes to Yen, so I see here no distrust. CDPR just didnt find it so important to put more resources in showing their relations.
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LoL it's wierd waking up to pages of angry discussion that seem to have fallen from the sky onto this thread.
It feels to me cdpr counted on each of us having a head canon in regards to Ciri and Yen, leaving it open to interpretation and with a few vague comments in game.
It seems a cheap way out, and I hope they come back to do it right.
It feels to me cdpr counted on each of us having a head canon in regards to Ciri and Yen, leaving it open to interpretation and with a few vague comments in game.
It seems a cheap way out, and I hope they come back to do it right.
Reading the last parts of Lady of the Lake, Ciri's relationship with Yen has a lot of tension, mostly related to the Lodge. We see that Ciri is capable of both warmth and coldness toward Yen. Ciri is obviously not happy about Yen summoning her to Montecalvo. There is the "Ciri of Vengerberg" line, but there are also these:
"Ciri, I asked you to go on ahead. The two of us need to talk!'
'It is not a discussion, it is a lecture,' Ciri dared to argue, but under the threatening glare from violet eyes, she immediately recoiled, clucked and galloped off on Kelpie on the road ahead.
Geralt continued to stir, coughing blood, then becoming very tense and froze. Dandelion, still holding Triss, sighed in despair, the dwarf cursed. Yennefer moaned, her face changing suddenly, contracted and ugly.
'There is nothing more pathetic,' said Ciri sternly, 'than a sorceress in tears. You taught me that. But now you're pathetic Yennefer. You and your magic, which is useless.'
Part of that is shock and despair speaking, but there is also the Lodge hanging over them with its "interests of magic." Ciri is lashing out against what she sees as another great lie- that she must sacrifice her free will for a great and noble cause. As she says to Philippa:
"I’ll try and explain to him the differences between castle Montecalvo and castle Stygga, although Vilgefortz thought he was doing was for the good of the world and you ladies also do for the good of the world. I know it is not going to be easy to convince as old wolf like Geralt. Geralt will say that I’m a brat and can easily be fooled into doing noble things. But I have to try. It is important that he understand it, that he accepts it. It is very important. Also for you ladies.’
Even though Yen defends Ciri against Sheala in the Lodge meeting, Ciri still seems angry with Yen for her role in deciding Ciri's fate. There is still love between them, but there is also bitterness. The last words Ciri speaks to Yen are in anger, and after 5-6 years of separation mixed feelings are not unexpected, especially when Ciri discovers Yen is now working for the Emperor and his "reasons of state". Throw in time spent with Avallach and on the run from the Hunt, and I think Geralt has it about right:
‘For Ciri,’ the witcher cut him off, ‘nothing is impossible.’
‘But...’
‘She is no longer the girl you knew,’ Geralt did not let him finish.
Dandelion was silent for a long time.
‘I have a strange feeling...’
‘Be quiet. Don’t say anything. I’m begging you.’
"Ciri, I asked you to go on ahead. The two of us need to talk!'
'It is not a discussion, it is a lecture,' Ciri dared to argue, but under the threatening glare from violet eyes, she immediately recoiled, clucked and galloped off on Kelpie on the road ahead.
Geralt continued to stir, coughing blood, then becoming very tense and froze. Dandelion, still holding Triss, sighed in despair, the dwarf cursed. Yennefer moaned, her face changing suddenly, contracted and ugly.
'There is nothing more pathetic,' said Ciri sternly, 'than a sorceress in tears. You taught me that. But now you're pathetic Yennefer. You and your magic, which is useless.'
Part of that is shock and despair speaking, but there is also the Lodge hanging over them with its "interests of magic." Ciri is lashing out against what she sees as another great lie- that she must sacrifice her free will for a great and noble cause. As she says to Philippa:
"I’ll try and explain to him the differences between castle Montecalvo and castle Stygga, although Vilgefortz thought he was doing was for the good of the world and you ladies also do for the good of the world. I know it is not going to be easy to convince as old wolf like Geralt. Geralt will say that I’m a brat and can easily be fooled into doing noble things. But I have to try. It is important that he understand it, that he accepts it. It is very important. Also for you ladies.’
Even though Yen defends Ciri against Sheala in the Lodge meeting, Ciri still seems angry with Yen for her role in deciding Ciri's fate. There is still love between them, but there is also bitterness. The last words Ciri speaks to Yen are in anger, and after 5-6 years of separation mixed feelings are not unexpected, especially when Ciri discovers Yen is now working for the Emperor and his "reasons of state". Throw in time spent with Avallach and on the run from the Hunt, and I think Geralt has it about right:
‘For Ciri,’ the witcher cut him off, ‘nothing is impossible.’
‘But...’
‘She is no longer the girl you knew,’ Geralt did not let him finish.
Dandelion was silent for a long time.
‘I have a strange feeling...’
‘Be quiet. Don’t say anything. I’m begging you.’
It's a new loop of the crisis of faith for Ciri, the last one, clarifying. When she hits her own 'bound of reason' one more time, in the most painful way.
She's angry not about Yen, and not even at these old hags, just a bitterness which she explains.
Look here also:
Let's see:
At first we have the conversation between Geralt and Ciri outside of Novigrad:
Ciri: Really? Eredin is hardly alone. They are others. They have plans for me. It was the sorceress of the lodge ones, now it's my father, even Yennefer....
Geralt: You are forgetting Avallac'h.
Ciri: Avallac'h is different. [.....] And I'm certain whatever it is he'll give me a choice. I will have the option to refuse
Ciri clearly says that Yennefer has plans for her. According to her the lodge had plans for her in the past (Lady of the Lake). Eredin, Emhyr and Yennefer have plans for her during the Witcher 3 events. ([...] now it's...[...])
So why does Ciri say that? Why does she think Yennefer has plans for her. You write that Ciri couldn't know about this, but that's not true.
Before this conversation between Geralt and Ciri there is another line in Kaer Morhen.
After the snowball fight in Kaer Morhen you get the choice to take Ciri to the emperor or travel directly to Velen. If you choose to take her to the emperor, this dialogue happens:
Geralt: You know. The emperor really wanted you found?
Ciri: Yennefer....... mentioned something.
Between the moment you arrive with Ciri in Kaer Morhen and the moment you leave Kaer Morhen Ciri and Yennefer had a offscreen interaction. It could have been either a conversation or just just a comment. What we know is that Ciri learned that the emperor searches for her.
Judging by the following dialogue in which Ciri suspects that Yennefer has plans for her, it was probably more than just Yennefer telling Ciri that Emhyr searches for her. But a first hint that there is something going on between emhyr and Yennefer.
This would also make sense in regard to the next conversation in the game, which is btw the longest Yennefer and Ciri have with each other:
Yennefer: "Perhaps you should talk to him after all."
Ciri: "What would be the point? Surely none now."
Yennefer: "And later? Don't count your father out just because he's the world's richest and most powerful--"
Ciri: " ... authoritarian rotter unworthy of even one inch of trust?"
Yennefer: "Actually, of all people, I believe you can trust him, perhaps you even should."
Ciri: "What about the dictatorial rotter part?"
Yennefer: "Something to get used to."
This dialogue couldn't be more clear. Yennefer heavily pushes Ciri towards a meeting with the emperor. She even says that of all people she can trust him.
Why does she do that? She knows excatly what the emperor want's from her, as she worked with him for 6+ months.
She knows that he will try to convince her to become empress if Ciri visits him.
Imo the only logical conclusion is that Yennefer wanted Ciri to become empress.
I also don't see how this is ooc. May I remind you that it was Yennefer's idea to visit the lodge at the end of Lady of the Lake. I don't remember if Yennefer knew about the lodge's plans to marry Ciri with Tankredd and become one of tthem, but Yennefer is not stupid. She must have known what the lodge wanted from Ciri. As far as i remember she also didn't oppose when she lodge told Ciri their plans.
I don't see a big difference between these two actions. In both she pushes Ciri towards a certain outcome. She doesn't force her to anything. In the end it's Ciri who decides, but just having a "plan" for someone doesn't require that the plan will also succeed. In the end it's just a plan.
I don't think Yennefer wanted to harm Ciri in any way. I believe that Yennefer thinks that Ciri becoming empress may be the best for her but i completely disagree. I will just copy my opinion about the matter from another thread:
That's my point. I had the same feeling after the empress ending. The "bad ending" at least was a closure without making Ciri unhappy, destroying her character and her realtionship to Geralt.
My only important motivation during the whole game was to protect Ciri and try to do everything that she is happy
The empress ending completely contradicts this. She tells you over and over again, that the two things she desires most are freedom and being ordinary. During the elven feast outside of Novigrad she expresses that she would love to join them and travel through the world, without any responsibilities and without anybody wanting to force her to anything.
As the empress of the most powerful nation she will be neither free nor ordinary. The opposite will happen.
She neither deserves that or does she want that. She even begs Geralt with tears in her eyes to stop her "You'll not try to stop me? Take me to the Blue Mountains by force".
She sacrificed herself once by defeating the white Frost. Now she deserves personal hapiness and not another sacrifice.
The even worse consequence of this ending is that it will spoil her character. It will destroy her innocence. What I love about her is that she is very similar to Geralt and the opposite to the other women(sorceresses) Geralt has to deal with. She doesn't scheme, she doesn't manipulate, she doesn't threat Geralt like a a bit retarded child, she doesn't invent "wide-reaching plans to change the world". Because she doesn't know how to and I never got the feeling she wanted to.
As the empress she would have to learn that, because otherwise she wouldn't survive a week. The influence of Emhyr or even Phillipa would ruin her.
At the end of Lady of the Lake the sorceresses of the lodge wanted to drag her into their "game". They wanted her to become one of them. She escaped and as the empress she would finally be dragged into it. . With other actors(not even that if Phillipa becomes her advisor) this time but with the same outcome.
Then we have a dialogue between Phillipa and Geralt in Skellige:
Phillipa: Has she mentoned anything? a possible advisory position? Beside a young, promising empress?
This line is pretty vague, but the question is how dies Phillipa know that Ciri is supposed to become empress?
Emhyr won't have told her. This conversation also happens when Geralt breaks Djikstra's leg instead telling him about Emhyr's plans with Ciri in the bathhouse in Novigrad, so Geralt isn't the source.
I also don't believe Phillipa would make such a claims out of nowhere, especially not towards Geralt.
While it's just specualtion, Yennefer is the most logical source. We saw Yennefer and Phillipa talking before you set sail for Skellige. Geralt even say ironically that "just a few moments together and you are plotting again".(I know they were talking about the amnesia but that doesn't exclude other topics)
Phillipa: Once we've defeated the Hunt and Ciri is safe, Yennefer's meteoric rise at the imperial court will come to an abrupt end.
This line doesn't have directly to do with Ciri, but is interesting nevertheless. Yennefer somehow rised from a prisoner to how it seems a ally of emhyr.
When asked why the amnesia deal didn't include Fringilla(as she is prisoned) she says that she has to have a "serious conversation" with the emperor. She says this in a way as they were equal. When you give the letter from Yennefer to the emperor on his boat in skellige, he also says that "he always liked that [her attitude] about Yennefer".
Furhermore when they learned about UMA Yenenfer voluntary travels to Vizima to see the emperor. In comparison Geralt takes Uma and want's to ride to Kaer Morhen but is stopped and forced by Nilfgaardian soldiers to meet the emperor. Why did Yennefer travel to Vizima?
These are of course only hints, but hey show a rather deep relation between Yennefer and Emhyr. Especially compared with Geralt and Emhyr.
It isn't surprising though considering how much time they spent together.
Finally, there is the empress ending, which has a interesting conversation.
Geralt asks Ciri if she made the choice on her own [to become empress]. Ciri answers that Yennefer had nothing to do with it. Geralt accepts this answer and didn't ask further.
Geralt asks that question in a very general way, without mentioning any names. But both immediately assume that he is asking if Yennefer influenced her.
Of all the people who could have influenced her , Yennefer seems to be the most obvious choice regarding this possibility.
How is that not suspiciuos? Imo Ciri only said no, because she didn't want that Geralt get's angry with Yen.
In conclusion I think the empress ending is what was supposed to happen. The famous "plan" Ciri was talking about. The plan that she becomes the next empress of Nilfgaard.
In the witcheress ending Geralt cheated Emhyr by telling him that Ciri is dead (could also explain why Yen doesn't appear in this ending)
and in the "crones ending" Ciri is dead.
In the end I believe the "plan" is very strongly indicated, but unfortunately there is no explanation that these trust issues are probably the reason for the rather distanced relation between Ciri and Yennefer. That's something they should have solved better.
That's a good point, but don't you that the relation between Ciri and Yennefer was so special that it would have been impossible to almost completely ignore it if it's not intended? Especially because Yennefer's mother feelings for Ciri are the driving force for her search after her in the first place.
All the hints that there is some problem between Ciri and Yen. . Ciri not calling Yennefer "mother" while Triss says "sister" to Ciri and Ciri "uncle" to Vesemir. I highly doubt that the book experts of CDP would have just overseen it.
They even replaced Yennefer with Vesemir in the balcony scene.
He get's something much worse than just silence. He get's to see a devastated Ciri in the empress ending, which is a consequence of him taking Ciri to the emperor. Why do you think is Ciri so unhappy? Not because she has to say good bye to Geralt. She is the lady of time and space. She can teleport to him whenever she want's, especially now with the Wild Hunt gone. She will have dozens of mages, who can teleport her to Geralt or Geralt to her. No, she is sad, because she doesn't want to become empress. Like mentioned above, she wan't Geralt to take her away. She wan't freedom. She want's to travel and do witcher stuff without having any responsibility. Geralt choice to visit the emperor with her lead to her "new life".
The a bit cold behavior towards Yen is nothing compared to this.
Like mentioned above. There is somekind of offscreen conversation in Kaer Morhen. That happens before Ciri saying to Geralt that Yennefer has plans for her. It's the only logical way she might have learned about it.
Nope. She's cold from the start with Yennefer.
Yennefer hugs her and a moment later she put her arms off Yen. No "mom", no "I'm happy to see you Yen". Nada.
Compare that to how she hugs Vesemir. Ciri seems to hold Triss in her arms for longer than Yen.
No time for an offscreen talk yet.
You really want accuse her of "cold behavior" because she huged Yennefer a few seconds less than Vesemir? Seriously?
I don' know how to answer that.
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Any proof that it is just that? If not your speculation is as good as mine.
"I'm happy to see you mom!"? nope.
"How good to see you Yen!" nope.
You are really trying to tell me that the normal behavior expected from Ciri is that?
That she doesn't call her "mother" in the first moment she sees her? How is that not reasonable? Does she have to call yennefer mother on every occasion?
I just rewatched the scene. Ciri is completely overwhelmed, speechless to see Yennefer. I don't see how calling her "mother" would be any different. She is obviously happy to see her.
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isn`t that scene the same even if you nevet took Ciri to emhyr, so why would anyone tell Philippa that Ciri would become empress if she never seen emhyr
Even if you don't take her to emhyr, the plan that Ciri is supposed to become empress doesn't change. Emhyr thinks to the end that his plan will work.
Emhyr can think what he want, but who would tell Philippa in that situation if you don`t take Ciri to emhyr, it make no sense it`s Yennefer
Yes, I watched it. She doesn't say anything but is obviously very happy to to see her. I have no idea how you can interpret that scene as "cold"
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Like I wrote, my specualtion is that Yennefer told her about the plan that Ciri becomes empress. This plan doesn't depend on Geralt taking Ciri to emhyr.
Even if you don't take her to emhyr, he asks about Ciri on the boat in Skellige and still want's Geralt to bring her to him. He doesn't know at this point that his plan failed.
You have a mom (or stepmom) you don't see for years and don't even say hi to her? Really? You want to tell me that's not bizarre? Would you do that in real life, trow yourfelf in the arms of "papa" Visemir and don't even say "hi" to Yennefer?
If that's not cold for you, welll... nothing more to argue about.
Exactly. Soon people will start to check time in seconds...
IMO some people started to look for clues in things that were most probably highly random during game development. I doubt there were notes for cutscenes team like "she hugs her 3 seconds shorther then Vesemir".
CDPR wasnt able to control more serious things (like the fact that in the books only Emhyr, Vilgefortz and Geralt knew that Ciri is Emhyr's daughter, and the fact that women presented by Emhyr as Cirilla Queen of Cintra is already Emhyr's wife since 1268, while in the game he tells his court that Ciri is Cirilla Queen of Cintra), and you think that they were controlling such extreme details like hugging time? People, this is game. Production is always one huge chaos and outcome has a lot of randomness. Scenario is changed many times, dialogs and scenes are changed many times. There is no point to go too far in interpretations.
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He doesn`t know but Yennefer know. why would she tell Philippa my daughter will became empress, when she know that Ciri hate emhyr and that Ciri never visited him
How does a simple "hi" would have made a moment "better", in which she is obviously overwhelmed and speechless to see a person. Why do you need even words? Simple body language can be enough to express emotions and she looked extremly happy imo.
I'll drop the discussion as you seem to insist that she can't be happy if she doesn't say something to Yen and we won't agree on that.
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