Combat system

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Turn based combat is not gonna happen. People won't buy turn based game in a amount required to have a return of investment. X com reboot was a terrific game and yet it struggled . Besides it doesn't really work that well without group setup. Cyberpunk need to sell at least 8-10 million copies within first year. It gonna be real time and it will involve player skill. The best you can hope for is a hybrid between player and character skill.
 
Turn based combat is not gonna happen. People won't buy turn based game in a amount required to have a return of investment. X com reboot was a terrific game and yet it struggled . Besides it doesn't really work that well without group setup. Cyberpunk need to sell at least 8-10 million copies within first year. It gonna be real time and it will involve player skill. The best you can hope for is a hybrid between player and character skill.

If it only be gamepad acrobacy cd project would break their promise... make that give the cyberpunk feel
 
Turn based sells. Pillars of Eternity, XCom, Shadowrun, Torment.

But it doesn't sell on Witcher 3 scale.

XCom2 sold something like 800000 copies. That is very goddamn good and a nice chunk of change. Pillars sold over 700k copies. Quite nice.

Witcher 3 sold over 10 million copies by March, before the GOTY release.

That's the target they are planning to beat.

TB is fun, but it is niche. Less than a million sales - and many of those are people like me who bought XCom, SR and PoE. "Hardcore" CRPG kids.

Cyberpunk 2077 is not going to be niche, at least not in the video game community.
 
Exactly. Cyberpunk budget will probably exceed 100 million dollars. To much of a risk to do turn based, (the only way i see it being implemented is in mass effect style game with both tactical and real time combat options to chose from. I think it could technically be done) It is sad as i love turn based but its probably necessary
in Witcher 3 it was less than 10 mil by march/
 
If it only be gamepad acrobacy cd project would break their promise... make that give the cyberpunk feel

Instead of complaining, I'm really curious how would you guys then design turn based combat system( that people would enjoy) in third person perspective?

I can guarantee you that not a single person even on Codex was singing praises of combat in Alpha Protocol, no matter how "unique" and more of an "rpg" it is( next to other shooters) .

T(F)PS games offer immersion of being in control of your character, directly expressing your skill...forcing off screen stats that can contradict your actions, by now is proven to be a bad idea.

There was (not long ago) post that mentioned Mount and Blade and that is probably the best example of rpg mechanics actually complementing combat system in an an action game. That and using rpg stats/abilities as secondary mechanics to shooting, movement, etc to better "tie them together"( again...Vanquish) and offer more dynamic to it.
 
Exactly. Cyberpunk budget will probably exceed 100 million dollars.
Bet on it.

in Witcher 3 it was less than 10 mil by march/

Nearly 10 million, then. 9.9, 10.1, POINT IS, roughly 10 million copies shipped. That be a lot.

T(F)PS games offer immersion of being in control of your character, directly expressing your skill...forcing off screen stats that can contradict your actions, by now is proven to be a bad idea..

A) maybe for action games,

B) Dark Souls, WItcher 3, both of these are stat-limited games. Can't use an item or can't use it well or can't move as well or plain old don't have an ability because you lack the stats. I don't think it's proven as a bad idea at all.

I find Mount and Blade clumsy and meh. Same for Dark Souls, mind you.

Also, you already blew your guarantee. I liked the combat in Alpha Protocol and I was a big Codex visitor back in the day.

The issue with FPS and the like is that you are expressing your skill, which sucks for people that like to play one character type but don't have the skillset for it. Want to be clever but aren't that witty? Tough. Want to be slick with tech but can't hack your way out of high school?

RPGs let you bypass these limits.
 
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B) Dark Souls, WItcher 3, both of these are stat-limited games. Can't use an item or can't use it well or can't move as well or plain old don't have an ability because you lack the stats. I don't think it's proven as a bad idea at all.

I find Mount and Blade clumsy and meh. Same for Dark Souls, mind you.

That would be different...most people would have no problems with rpg limitations if they're logically implemented. Not strong enough to carry a rocket launcher? Don't complain if your aim is shaking then.
But missing an opponent with a shotgun at point blank, because you lack "skill"...that's a problem.
Non combat skills are a different matter entirely,
 
I agree that for action games using stats, having stats affect how well you can use something makes sense. If you're not strong enough, you swing slow, if your skill is low your aim is more shaky.

Of course, with a shotgun, that's kind of the point of the weapon a lot of the time. You use it up close, where your skill has little to do with it. Point it in the general direction of the bad guy and pull the trigger. Something from that spray should hit. :p
 
Well i never considered combat in dark souls or bloodborne to be good... In the end is a game where you can instant swirch from a spoon to dual wielding double huge maul in a blink to of the eyes.. In fact there are more trolls in dark souls or bloodborne pvp session then in any other game.... Also is a system incredible easy to highjack where you can make builds so ridicolus that are beyond overpowered...

Comparing witcher 3 with those game is beyond stupid since they are two complete different games.. Also cyberpunk have his own system of stats and skill that will be adapted to real time gameplay...

I get that many people loves Dark souls and Bloodborne but not every game have to use that combat system that is not flawless like many points it to be...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WVriP1pQyY


No game is perfect but the Souls do amazing designed combat systems its the reason these games acclaimed. The comparison between these games isn't that far fetch either. They are both third person action rpgs games about killing monsters. Again Souls aren't perfect like I said no game is but the Witcher 3 even at most basic combat design level falls apart. The controls, targeting system, hitboxes, enemy ai and lack of control over attack animations. I mean the flaws in Witcher combat is blatant major flaws that sadly cripple the combat unlike the flaws in Dark Souls which are minor and easy to fix.
 
Exploration in first/third person like in Witcher.
When combat begins, camera pulls out to an isometric position for a tactical combat with combat mechanics like in Frozen Synapse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG7slN6ze8M


You hear me devs? :)

See, I like this idea. And I think it's fun.

But it lacks excitement. Combat becomes pretty safe, very cerebral. And that's fine! IT can still be exciting, ( X Com) and challenging...but not -as- exciting and not -as- tense.

In Cyberpunk, combat is scary and fast and dangerous. The PnP system is set up so that, very often, combat is over in a round or two. You describe your action, roll the dice and see who is standing. No save, no reload, no pause the game and go for coffee, ( Refs just laugh at you if you suggest that).

And TB, even RTwPause, lacks that immediacy and that threat. Even when you get smeared, it's at a remove and instead of fear, mostly you feel annoyance and disappointment.

Feel fear.

Some people like Dark Souls combat, some do not. I find it clumsy, slow and imprecise. I think a lot of DS series fame is it's much lauded difficulty and opaque setting. Not my thing.
 
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I definitely hope that combat is based almost entirely on character development and design and has very little to do with "player skill". If they make it just another stupid shooter... that's going to completely destroy the game. And honestly, defeats the purpose of even bothering to make an RPG.

I mean, look at Bethesda's shooters with an RPG skin like Fallout 3 or Skyrim. Player skill is the defining factor in those games. Doesn't matter how you build your character, or where you focus their points, your skill as a player is what matters. If you have the skill, your character with no combat skills will still completely slaughter enemies in combat without even trying. Which essentially defeats the purpose of having character development in the first place.

If they do that for this game, I'm definitely not buying it. I have enough shooters. I am looking for an RPG. A game that's based entirely on the design and build of my character, not my skill as a player.

I would like to see a turn based combat system for this game. Something that makes full use of character stats and abilities. My chance of hitting an enemy should be entirely based on how I built my character, NOT on whether or not I have the twitch skills to hit a moving target.

It should basically be the PnP ruleset put into 3D.

A good example is Tower of Elemental Evil. It's a D&D game, with pretty weak story, but by far the best implementation of the PnP rules ever. Combat is all turn based. Characters move based on initiative, you have your move distance for walking or running, you can take a free 5-foot-step, your attacks are all by the rules along with attacks of opportunity and everything. It was amazing to play.

I would like to see the same for this game. Combat starts, the game pauses and everything should go by the numbers. You move as you would be able to in the PnP, distance, speed, cover, chances to hit and number of attacks... all of it.

I really hope this game will end up being an RPG and not just another shooter with some RPG features slapped on.

The thing is Skyrim combat is awful and is brain less easy. It takes no skill unless you consider mashing mouse 1 with magic and drink 20 potions is considered skill based. Skill based combat systems done right are much better than stat based combat. Also turn based combat is dated and doesn't work for AAA games anymore. CP combat should be more action and less rpg.
 
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But missing an opponent with a shotgun at point blank, because you lack "skill"...that's a problem.
People miss with shotguns at point blank range all the time in reality, if for no other reason then they're so close the shot pattern is essentially the same as a single projectile.

In Cyberpunk, combat is scary and fast and dangerous. The PnP system is set up so that, very often, combat is over in a round or two. You describe your action, roll the dice and see who is standing.
But that's impossible with a turn-based system, ask any RTS/FPS fanboy ...

Sure, giving the player a pause-n-play option eliminates the effect of player reactions or their ability to target a specific pixel (thus is totally opposed by the FPS crowd) but you can get that sense of immediacy and danger with character skills, PnP games have been doing it for decades.
 
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but you can get that sense of immediacy and danger with character skills, PnP games have been doing it for decades.

Thank you for the shotgun correction, I was going to make that point.

Anyway, I think most PnP systems do -not- provide the danger and immediacy at all. It's much more remote. A good GM can use timers or very descriptive combat, but generally, nope. And that's with the fear of permadeath.

A combat that takes an hour or half an hour to resolve just isn't immediate. FNFF broke that rule and that's why I love it.

The -other- reason PnP, even the more typical slow PnP combat, can be breathless, is the options. Your options, the enemy options, GM choices. A 1 on 1 swordfight can turn into a 4 vs 3 magic/swordfight with undead octopi or whatever. It's the open-ended, "I don't reaaaaallly know what could happen next" of PnP that makes it also more fun.

And of course you have players and GMs that try to remove that as much as possible. Mostly to feel safe.
 
Anyway, I think most PnP systems do -not- provide the danger and immediacy at all. It's much more remote. A good GM can use timers or very descriptive combat, but generally, nope.
I'll freely admit it's not the same adrenaline rush you get with an FPS. If that's important to you play an FPS. Don't expect every game you want to play to use FPS combat mechanics tho.

That said, yes I know FPS games sell a LOT more copies then RPGs. While getting rich is (I don't think) CDPRs primary goal for making CP2077 there's no reason they have to sacrifice RPG combat (character centered) for FPS (player centered). All I ask is both be viable options.
 
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I'll freely admit it's not the same adrenaline rush you get with an FPS. If that's important to you play an FPS. Don't expect every game you want to play to use FPS combat mechanics tho..

Yeah, and Cyberpunk 2020 also provides that rush, due to the lethality and simplicity of the combat system. It's fast, it's deadly and it hurts.

So I do want that rush in 2077 and turn based, pausable, saveable, hawk's-eye- view ( PnP doesn't have this unless you got to tactical maps) won't provide what the PnP provides.

And that's a step backwards, not forwards, in terms of replicating 2020 as a CRPG.
 
So I do want that rush in 2077 and turn based, pausable, saveable, hawk's-eye- view ( PnP doesn't have this unless you got to tactical maps) won't provide what the PnP provides.
If it's not a strictly first-person viewpoint iron-man game I'm afraid this is unavoidable. Again if this sort of thing is important to you then by all means play a game with those options. Don't demand that only those options be available in a game you wish to play.

And yes @Sardukhar I know you aren't making any such demand, others however are.
 
Don't demand that only those options be available in a game you wish to play.

And yes @Sardukhar I know you aren't making any such demand, others however are.

I just can't figure how they are going to give us the RP-joy of PnP with the deadliness and excitement of FNFF. Best I got is bullet-time and sequential attacks, but you know, VATS was always kinda meh. And I liked VATS.

THe otherwise terrible Hitman Absolution had a freeze-time and shoot people option that was cool.

I enjoy Dragon Age combat options.

Actually, as I watch my eldest play through DAI, I am reminded how well the combat works, minus all the colours and confusion. Either TPS type or pulled back and overview. That could be very cool.
 
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