Concerning GPS and hand-holding

[Christopherrolf]

Concerning GPS and hand-holding

I hope this trend will end soon, I know little children get scared when they are lost but I think everyone would at some point realize that it's a lot more interesting to look at the game world rather than at an interface, and that 'exploring' is not following a dot but finding things on your own.

Removing the mini map from the UI doesn't help, as Geralt isn't given enough if any information about where to go from the quest givers.

I hope you at CD Projekt Red will in your future games be mindful of how letting players explore on their own can benefit gameplay considerably.


Thank you for your time.

 

[moonknightgog]

I agree with you. GPS and quest markers simply devalue the entire quest design.
The problem here is that the quest structure has been designed from the start with the quest markers in mind ( I mean, Tresure Hunts are ridicoulous, they are not even hunts, just follow the marker). A really bad move, and I hope it will not the same in Cyberpunk..

 

[Dread_Reaper]

Yeah, NPCs should give you better directions so you don't have to follow the mini-map, but I prefer looking at a mini-map more than constantly opening the map.

 

[Costa417]

I think everyone would at some point realize that it's a lot more interesting to look at the game world rather than at an interface, and that 'exploring' is not following a dot but finding things on your own.

I think some sort of minimap is required in these type of games. However I dont agree with the little dots that just take out the exploring part. To me a good compromise would be removing the little dots, showing the yellow triangle to where the objective is. Also the npcs should use more cardinal points to explain the way to you, not just "go there near the xxx" assuming Geralt knows perfectly all the places in the game world

---------- Updated at 02:53 PM ----------

Yeah, NPCs should give you better directions so you don't have to follow the mini-map, but I prefer looking at a mini-map more than constantly opening the map.

It's even easier to implent having npcs say "go west from here until you see something and then you are there" for example

 

[Christopherrolf]

My comment on the mini map was referring to the choice in the in-game options. I don't mind the mini map.

 

[CrunchyNapkin]

Just because there's a dot showing you where to go that doesn't mean that it doesn't allow you to explore.

When I track a quest I usually do other stuff too before getting to the "dot"

If I come across a weird place, I'll explore it. If I find monsters, I'll kill them, if I see weird huts, I'll enter them. If I notice any question marks on my map, I'll check them out.

My point is that a "dot" that you're supposed to follow is not the issue, it depends on the player.

If someone is a lazy person and he is not in the mood to explore he will just follow the dot and that's it.

 

[StormKorp]

This world is full of sadist players. You know what? Why using the car to go to work? This tech is only for kids and makes your life way too easy better pass through the forest bare-foot and instead of going to supermarket procure your food hunting for boars in the woods with a machete. Then you are a real pro.

Just joking ofc.

 

[Gerald01]

You are of course 100% right, but the days of Morrowind and actual challenge are over.
QED: just read the comments of your average Witcher 3 fan.

 

[cyberpunkforever]

you can deactivate the hud and minimap and point line to objective in the game settings/options

 

[Gerald01]

you can deactivate the hud and minimap and point line to objective in the game settings/options

Removing the mini map from the UI doesn't help, as Geralt isn't given enough if any information about where to go from the quest givers.

.

 

[Tuco]

I think some sort of minimap is required in these type of games.

i'm not particularly fond of minimaps in general, but the minimap itself is not the issue.
The issue, as already pointed, is that there's a lot of quest design in the game that seems to rely a bit too much on markers and trackers.
And it's a shame. i mean, you have some excellent narrative and writing, a wonderfully designed open world literally filled of distinctive and unique landmarks every few steps and... The quests that often make hardly any use of this godsend beauty and just tell you "You know what, don't even think about it, just follow this marker and you'll reach the spot".
And before some genius will jump out saying "Oh, just disable this stuff!" I'll point that many quests in your journal don't even bother including decent directions for your goals and more or less tell you "Just go where we are putting the yellow mark".
For how silly it may sound, while at first I didn't like the idea too much, some of the quests where you are going to follow same trail with "Witcher senses" are the one that feel LESS piloted and automated.

Now, I'm not saying that ALL the quests in the game are dull to this point (especially because it's often a matter of making choices instead of figuring things out, which is what saves them), but I really wouldn't complain a single bit if this trend was gone entirely in the future expansions and I really wouldn't mind even some retroactive tweaking to at least some of the existing ones.

---------- Updated at 03:55 PM ----------

You are of course 100% right, but the days of Morrowind and actual challenge are over.
QED: just read the comments of your average Witcher 3 fan.

Yeaah, well, now, let's not delude ourselves believing that Morrowind was particularly complex nor "a real challenge".
We are talking about a game where quests seemed taken out of a "MMO offline" and at level 11 you could be more or less an immortal god with some builds.

 

[Christopherrolf]

I don't mind an in-game GPS. As long as it is optional.

 

[Tuco]

I don't mind an in-game GPS. As long as it is optional.

But that's the issue, it isn't.
I mean, sure... You can turn it off, but the quest design is so deeply built around that that it mostly turns into an exercise in frustration.
And for anyone trying to claim "Well, how would you even manage without markers and GPS?" I'll just point to games like Gothic 2 and how they made landmarks and simple instructions the main tool for world navigation.

 

[Gerald01]

Yeaah, well, now, let's not delude ourselves believing that Morrowind was particularly complex nor "a real challenge".
We are talking about a game where quests seemed taken out of a "MMO offline" and at level 11 you could be more or less an immortal god with some builds.

QED: your average gamer thinks "Dark Souls" is THE challenge.

 

[moonknightgog]

Just because there's a dot showing you where to go that doesn't mean that it doesn't allow you to explore.

When I track a quest I usually do other stuff too before getting to the "dot"

If I come across a weird place, I'll explore it. If I find monsters, I'll kill them, if I see weird huts, I'll enter them. If I notice any question marks on my map, I'll check them out.

My point is that a "dot" that you're supposed to follow is not the issue, it depends on the player.

If someone is a lazy person and he is not in the mood to explore he will just follow the dot and that's it.

you can deactivate the hud and minimap and point line to objective in the game settings/options

You can't follow a quest without the quest marker. That's the point.
You can disable the minimap, but you don't have enough informations that allow you to know where the quest continues.
That's a problem because it devalued the entire quest design. On one side, you have a beautiful writing, characters and situations, but on the other hand, you can turn off your brain and follow the yellow dot on the map or minimap. Actually, you are forced to do it.

And it's even worse with the treasure hunts. Which are not in fact an hunt, but just "check your map for the yellow dot and go there".

 

[Tuco]

QED: your average gamer thinks "Dark Souls" is THE challenge.

I love Dark Souls a lot, because it's a game filled by superlative design from start to (almost) end, but I ALWAYS claimed it's reputation of being "incredibly hard, the toughest game around " was hilariously over-inflated.

But that's not particularly relevant now, since Morrowind isn't really harder.
Then again, I always found the way Bethesda designs its RPGs complete garbage from a mechanical standpoint, so I'm admittedly not the most unbiased voice on the matter.

 

[moonknightgog]

But that's not particularly relevant now, since Dark Souls is not an RPG.

Fixed.

 

[Garrison72]

you can deactivate the hud and minimap and point line to objective in the game settings/options

You can't deactivate the GTA style yellow circle that says 'here's the relevant point on your map!.' We should be able to toggle this off. I think they took a bit too much inspiration from Rockstar.

 

[moonknightgog]

You can't deactivate the GTA style yellow circle that says 'here's the relevant point on your map!.' We should be able to toggle this off. I think they took a bit too much inspiration from Rockstar.

Even in the case, nothing change because the quest structure has been designed with quest markers in mind.
The issue is bound too deep.

I can only hope they will handle the quest design better in Cyberpunk.
I understand that the quest marker make the game more attractive for casual gamers and this ensure more selling, but you can actually make the quest markers as an option, if you design the quest structure without it in mind and with more informations in the quest journal and in dialogues.

 

[Tuco]

I can only hope they will handle the quest design better in Cyberpunk.
I understand that the quest marker make the game more attractive for casual gamers and this ensure more selling, but you can actually make the quest markers as an option, if you design the quest structure without it in mind and with more informations in the quest journal and in dialogues.

Yeah, exactly, that's the heart of the issue.
no one is asking to make games "just for hardcore masochists".
The request is "Make games with good core design", then leave the dumb stuff as optional for all these people (a big part of the market, in fact) who don't actually love good games and don't appreciate tight design, but just love to keep themselves busy with them".