Emhyr - The Game Non-Character vs the Book.

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That seems extremely excessive as a judgement. Especially since Letho is on the run and not really doing any major damage to Emhyr.

Also, bluntly, Letho has been exposed as the Assassin of Kings. It's not like he's going to be able to operate like used to.

Any leader betraying a useful ally and not making use of them is, in my eyes, an idiotic and weak leader.

As for Letho not being able to operate. Watch TW2's intro. Letho can be useful and h doesn't need stealth for that. And if he gets himself killed while trying to get rid of Radovid? While if Emhyr is that shitty, he's not going to care much.

@Dragonbird
He could have held Letho in reserve until he is sure that he is not needed. He was way too hasty to order his death. It is imprudent.
 
Good point. I totally agree with that. He's a bit... visible.

"Don't let anyone the size of Arnold Schwarzenegger with a scar on their head near me."

Not a hard thing to pull off.

Letho also had his fellow Viper school Witchers to help the first time and...well...he doesn't anymore.

I think Letho demonstrates the Witchers are fundamentally men of their word.

They are "naive and simple" which is why Letho never suspected Emhyr would try and screw him.

Knight of Phoenix said:
As for Letho not being able to operate. Watch TW2's intro. Letho can be useful. And if he gets himself killed while trying to get rid of Radovid? While if Emhyr is that shitty, he's not going to care much.

That was because of Sile's bomb as much as anything else.

And Emhyr was always going to make an enemy of him, better to eliminate him when he's not expecting it.

Emhyr betraying Letho makes good sense, especially since Radovid was a nonentity at that point.
 
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Letho also had his fellow Viper school Witchers to help the first time and...well...he doesn't anymore.

Not in Demavend's assassination. And the Scoia'Tael only helped in his escape, which supposedly Emhyr would not care about anyways.

Had Letho said that Emhyr told him to kill Radovid, and he started to suspect that the emperor doesn't care if he makes it out alive or not, driving a wedge between them and then having Emhyr determine that Letho is no longer useful, then that I could buy. But none of that happened.

And that compounded with Emhyr not doing anything, just makes him look like an incompetent fool.
 
Any leader betraying a useful ally and not making use of them is, in my eyes, an idiot and weak leader.

But Letho isn't an ally, he's a pawn.

The more I think of it, the less I think Emhyr wanted Radovid dead in those initial weeks (or months) after Loc Muinne. The witch hunt was part of the plan, but for it to happen Emhyr needed someone to (almost literally) fuel the flames before the North rallied to fight off Nilfgaard. Even if he hadn't known how close to madness Radovid was, he would definitely have known that Radovid was the best candidate for this.

So I think that Emhyr had already finished his business with Letho, and could therefore get rid of him. It was only later that he realised he'd underestimated Radovid's military prowess and needed him dead.
 
"If you can kill a king for something I promised you, how can you not kill me in the future with the same cold blooded way?"

Put this axioma in a paranoid mind like Emhyr's one. Any one who use the violence for imposing his rules suffers, later or sooner, some kind of paranoia. And Emhyr, as books point, uses people as tools.
 
But Letho isn't an ally, he's a pawn.

The more I think of it, the less I think Emhyr wanted Radovid dead in those initial weeks (or months) after Loc Muinne. The witch hunt was part of the plan, but for it to happen Emhyr needed someone to (almost literally) fuel the flames before the North rallied to fight off Nilfgaard. Even if he hadn't known how close to madness Radovid was, he would definitely have known that Radovid was the best candidate for this.

So I think that Emhyr had already finished his business with Letho, and could therefore get rid of him. It was only later that he realised he'd underestimated Radovid's military prowess and needed him dead.

Even "pawns", great leaders don't betray them.

But we've already determined that Emhyr is a mediocre leader at best, now it's only a matter of degree, of whether he is mediocre or shit.

I don't disagree that Emhyr wouldn't have thought that Radovid was that much of a threat at Loc Muinne. But if he had a brain and was prudent, he wouldn't get rid of a useful pawn without determining with great certainty that he isn't needed anymore. He would have kept Letho in reserve.

Not to mention the fact that Emhyr wants Ciri and she is being hunted by the Wild Hunt. He didn't think that Letho, who fought the Wild Hunt before, could be useful?

What a fucking idiot.
 
Not in Demavend's assassination. And the Scoia'Tael only helped in his escape, which supposedly Emhyr would not care about anyways.

Had Letho said that Emhyr told him to kill Radovid, and he started to suspect that the emperor doesn't care if he makes it out alive or not, driving a wedge between them and then having Emhyr determine that Letho is no longer useful, then that I could buy. But none of that happened.

And that compounded with Emhyr not doing anything, just makes him look like an incompetent fool.

No, Demavend's assassination was achieved with the help of the Lodge.

My point is you're making a great deal about Emhyr's betrayal when the plan is fairly effective and ruthless in that it allows all loose ends to be eliminated and blame the Lodge. Yes, Nilfgaard invades immediately after the war but Emhyr wouldn't want to look like the party responsible for the assassination as that immediately removes the blame from the Lodge who are his greatest enemies (as mages are the only military advantage the North has over the South).

Get rid of Shillard and Letho and you have no reason to believe Nilfgaard is involved in Foltest and the other Kings' death, which risk turning them into Martyrs as we see with Calanthe.

Her death rallied the whole North against him, which Geralt says is possibly going to happen.

"Nothing unites people more than suffering." or something like that.

I guess my point is that Letho was never all that important an operative to Emhyr but simply one of many irons he had in the fire and one which had potential political implications if it got out that Kings were now fair target for assassination (which meant they could and should start targeting him as well). As you mentioned with Radovid and doing it "by the book", Emhyr doesn't want to look like he's violating the customs and rules of the time.

He's a man without honor but it's not like Letho is really so stupid to think that he hasn't fulfilled his end of the bargain already and would just go along with assassinating Radovid.
 
Even "pawns", great leaders don't betray them.

But we've already determined that Emhyr is a mediocre leader at best, now it's only a matter of degree, of whether he is mediocre or shit.

I don't disagree that Emhyr wouldn't have thought that Radovid was that much of a threat at Loc Muinne. But if he had a brain and was prudent, he wouldn't get rid of a useful pawn without determining with great certainty that he isn't needed anymore. He would have kept Letho in reserve.

Not to mention the fact that Emhyr wants Ciri and she is being hunted by the Wild Hunt. He didn't think that Letho, who fought the Wild Hunt before, could be useful?

What a fucking idiot.

Not going to argue with that :)
 
Emhyr lost first war because of mages, and lost second one because of kings ( Foltest, Demavend and Henselt ) working together, so he sent Letho to get rid of everyone who could be a treat , kill kings and blame mages for that, but he make one big mistake he didn`t count Radovid in all that.
 
My point is you're making a great deal about Emhyr's betrayal when the plan is fairly effective and ruthless in that it allows all loose ends to be eliminated and blame the Lodge. Yes, Nilfgaard invades immediately after the war but Emhyr wouldn't want to look like the party responsible for the assassination as that immediately removes the blame from the Lodge who are his greatest enemies (as mages are the only military advantage the North has over the South).

It is irrelevant, the Lodge is already blamed and the mages are already being massacred. People finding out is not going to matter. When pogroms and massacres start, the truth becomes completely irrelevant because people are not killing mages because of kings, they are at the end of the day killing mages because they always hated and feared them and just needed the excuse.

Emhyr is already violating the rules and customs of the time by launching surprise invasions against several sovereign realms while they are in chaos without a formal declaration of war, blatantly taking advantage of a chaos that most people would probably attribute to him anyways.

No, Emhyr is just an imbecile, the game portrayed him that way. A passive, useless imbecile who only wins if Geralt has to do the work for him.
 
Even "pawns", great leaders don't betray them.

As someone said in my Medieval Studies class, "Honor isn't about decency. That's bullshit. Honor is about having the public perception that you can be dealt with fairly."

Emhyr is, again, very much like Tywin Lannister.

He makes and breaks agreements while giving with one hand and holding a knife in the back.

Tywin Lannister promised the North to the Boltons while marrying his son to Sansa Stark, thus making him heir to the North (and thus the Boltons were never going to keep the North long)

But we've already determined that Emhyr is a mediocre leader at best, now it's only a matter of degree, of whether he is mediocre or shit.

I don't disagree that Emhyr wouldn't have thought that Radovid was that much of a threat at Loc Muinne. But if he had a brain and was prudent, he wouldn't get rid of a useful pawn without determining with great certainty that he isn't needed anymore. He would have kept Letho in reserve.

I don't think Emhyr ever actually considered Letho all that useful of a pawn and merely sent him on the equivalent of a suicide mission. The fact Letho was wildly successful and incredibly intelligent, achieving above and beyond anything he could have imagined made his execution all the more necessary.

Because Letho COULD kill Emhyr.

And if Radovid wasn't insane, that's EXACTLY what Radovid would have promised.

Not to mention the fact that Emhyr wants Ciri and she is being hunted by the Wild Hunt. He didn't think that Letho, who fought the Wild Hunt before, could be useful?

What a fucking idiot.

Again, the big issue is you're dealing with a man who can and will kill the leaders of countries in a time when that was sacrosanct. You don't want that kind of man around you.

And Letho clearly believes he's going home to retire at the Viper School with his buddies because that's the deal which was promised.

You can't just order a person like that to continue doing your dirty work when you made a deal that he fulfilled in an EPIC fashion. If Emhyr has no intention of honoring it, you need to get rid of him before he becomes a threat.

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It is irrelevant, the Lodge is already blamed and the mages are already being massacred. People finding out is not going to matter. When pogroms and massacres start, the truth becomes completely irrelevant because people are not killing mages because of kings, they are at the end of the day killing mages because they always hated and feared them and just needed the excuse.

Emhyr is already violating the rules and customs of the time by launching surprise invasions against several sovereign realms while they are in chaos without a formal declaration of war, blatantly taking advantage of a chaos that most people would probably attribute to him anyways.

No, Emhyr is just an imbecile, the game portrayed him that way. A passive, useless imbecile who only wins if Geralt has to do the work for him.

I believe if it came out, the entire North would rally against Nilfgaard in a single united alliance to avenge their fallen monarchs.

Because that's exactly what happened at Sodden.
 
Wow. After reading that excerpt from Lady of the Lake, not sure how I can justify Geralt bringing Ciri to him. After that little conversation, Geralt would tell her to keep as far away from Emhyr and his "reasons of state" as he can.
 
Wow. After reading that excerpt from Lady of the Lake, not sure how I can justify Geralt bringing Ciri to him. After that little conversation, Geralt would tell her to keep as far away from Emhyr and his "reasons of state" as he can.

I confess, I kind of was wondering about the OP's thoughts.

"This is supposed to make us like Emhyr MORE?"
 
As someone said in my Medieval Studies class, "Honor isn't about decency. That's bullshit. Honor is about having the public perception that you can be dealt with fairly."

No one is talking about honor. I am talking about pragmatism. Great leaders don't betray their followers and tools, not without just cause.

Tywin Lannister isn't a great leader either, but at least he has brains which Emhyr lacks.

I don't think Emhyr ever actually considered Letho all that useful of a pawn and merely sent him on the equivalent of a suicide mission. The fact Letho was wildly successful and incredibly intelligent, achieving above and beyond anything he could have imagined made his execution all the more necessary.

The sign of a weak leader, one who is terrified by excellence around him.

I believe if it came out, the entire North would rally against Nilfgaard in a single united alliance to avenge their fallen monarchs.

Because that's exactly what happened at Sodden.

No, because people were not already massacring mages at that time and there was no chaos. And the North would have still rallied against Nilfgaard, with and without the plot being exposed? As it happened.

Literally, people finding out is inconsequential. That and, how would they find out anyways? You think Letho is going to gossip around, go in public and tell people? You think Emhyr is going to publicly hug Letho and kiss him on the cheek? He can hold Letho in reserve and use him when he is needed.

But well, Emhyr is an idiot and a weak leader, so I can't expect much intelligence from him.
 
Even "pawns", great leaders don't betray them.
Radovid almost perfectly used Geralt as a pawn- destroy salamandra, cure Adda curse, kill Grand master, find Anais, kill Whoreson Junior, find Philippa, and than he made weird decision to kill Geralt before he reached Philippa
 
Radovid almost perfectly used Geralt as a pawn- destroy salamandra, cure Adda curse, kill Grand master, find Anais, kill Whoreson Junior, find Philippa, and than he made weird decision to kill Geralt before he reached Philippa

Because Radovid was turned into an idiot.

Compare that with Radovid in TW2 not planning on killing Geralt at Loc Muinne, despite being a witness.
 
That and, how would they find out anyways? You think Letho is going to gossip around, go in public and tell people?

While I agree with you in general, don't forget that Letho did just that. He told Geralt. And as Geralt also passed on the information to Roche/Iorveth/Triss, it could have got back to Nilfgaardian agents that Letho was talking a little too much.
 
I don't think that Emhyr would be that bothered about people thinking he killed another king. He surived the scandal of trying to marry his daughter, he might as well survive something that actually helps the NIlfgaardian cause.
In the games he like Radovid are people that are supposedly brillant leaders, but we don't actually see much of either's genius.
 
While I agree with you in general, don't forget that Letho did just that. He told Geralt. And as Geralt also passed on the information to Roche/Iorveth/Triss, it could have got back to Nilfgaardian agents that Letho was talking a little too much.

Fair point.
Not that I think it would matter anyway, whether they know or not, as anyone would have figured it out. But it could be that Emhyr got pissed off at that. Still a dumb move, but somewhat understandable.

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I don't think that Emhyr would be that bothered about people thinking he killed another king. He surived the scandal of trying to marry his daughter, he might as well survive something that actually helps the NIlfgaardian cause.
In the games he like Radovid are people that are supposedly brillant leaders, but we don't actually see much of either's genius.

At this point, it is no exaggeration at all to say that Henselt in TW2 trumps both (not the TW2 Radovid, aka the real one). Both as a character and as a king.
 
Because Radovid was turned into an idiot.

Compare that with Radovid in TW2 not planning on killing Geralt at Loc Muinne, despite being a witness.
I know, when Radovid said no witneses, it was wtf moment, he didn`t have problem when Geralt was witness in Loc Muinne, and whole north knows anyway that he burning mages so what if Geralt is witness it`s just another mage on the list.
 
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