Bingo. Exactly how I feel about it.
If there are tiers of weapons, they should be broadly about quality (i.e. This "epic gun" from a big corp known for quality of its materials is better than a cheap handgun you can buy in a cornershop).
I would hate to see leveled variations of the same gun, over and over across the entire game.
It breaks immersion, potentially pacing and it doesn't improve the game mechanically in ANY possible way.
Well, but that's the point, isn't it? Discussing the topic in advance with the developers before having sure info about it.
And NO, "wait and see" is not a wise approach, because if there are arguments to be made against leveled loot it's better to make them now, before a bunch of developers spent weeks implementing them in the game.
I'm sorry but I really don't. Not on this aspect, especially not after TW3.
Vertical progression of player stats/equipment and Open world rpg...oil and water.
It never works and no amount of added features will fix this fundamental incompatibility.
This is one of the worst effects that MMO's and isometric arpgs ( like Diablo) had on single player rpgs. It creates enormous hyperinflation of base attributes that gets more and more and more out of control everytime you gain a "level", until they add global level scaling to "fix" the issue.
It also creates comical dissonance between narrative and the world...boars in Hearts of Stone are more dangerous than Eredin and his army.
I've wrote on this before.
Create distinct weapon categories , so that each is more advantageous in certain situation ( speed, armor penetration, precision, reach, ammo availability, etc),
Divide weapons in each type into three basic "tiers": standard ( average stats, high modability), high grade ( better stats, low modability) and Prototypes (highest stats/no modability).
Use weapon load out system, so choosing right equipment for the job is important choice. Weapon and armor mods, should add extra features to the item, instead of 2/3/X times more damage/reduction.
The game doesn't really need xyz types of pistols. Simply make each type distinct and more useful, depending on situation.
It never works and no amount of added features will fix this fundamental incompatibility.
This is one of the worst effects that MMO's and isometric arpgs ( like Diablo) had on single player rpgs. It creates enormous hyperinflation of base attributes that gets more and more and more out of control everytime you gain a "level", until they add global level scaling to "fix" the issue.
It also creates comical dissonance between narrative and the world...boars in Hearts of Stone are more dangerous than Eredin and his army.
I've wrote on this before.
Create distinct weapon categories , so that each is more advantageous in certain situation ( speed, armor penetration, precision, reach, ammo availability, etc),
Divide weapons in each type into three basic "tiers": standard ( average stats, high modability), high grade ( better stats, low modability) and Prototypes (highest stats/no modability).
Use weapon load out system, so choosing right equipment for the job is important choice. Weapon and armor mods, should add extra features to the item, instead of 2/3/X times more damage/reduction.
The game doesn't really need xyz types of pistols. Simply make each type distinct and more useful, depending on situation.
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This is literally how Borderlands did it.
I'm more a fan of how games like Bloodlines and Fallout handle it. You want better killing power? You just get a more powerful gun.
No, it's literally NOT.
In Borderlands you had infinite variations of procedurally generated weapons, instead of having very few pre-defined of them.
Exactly the opposite of what I'm advocating for, basically.
Yes, Fallout is actually a pretty decent example of this done well. IIRC, stats are what affect the damage and increase it, not just "this weapon is a +5 machete".
You might want to go back and replay Borderlands. Because your claim that it is not is factually wrong.
The weapons were limited in how they were produced. Different corporations within Borderlands specialized in different ways, and that in turn affected the weapons that dropped with their brand.
You want explosives? Torgue is your manufacturer. If you want to spray-and-pray, Vladof weapons are your go-to. Elemental damage is the specialty of Maliwan. And not every weapon type is produced by every manufacturer; Maliwan doesn't produce assault rifles or shotguns, so you will never find one with their branding.
And despite the number of components in the game, each manufacturer has limited base components around which their guns are built; in this way, you are forced to pay attention to the manufacturer if you are looking for particular effects or quality in certain areas. And a more powerful gun by Torgue is always going to perform better than the cheaper Bandit offer.
Yes, all of those manufacturers in the game are part of the gameplay and not just there for window dressing. All the extended components list did was take the "gunrunning competition gone nuts" approach to its ridiculous conclusion, which is fitting given its setting. But the core element of "different manufacturers are better at different things" is still one of the pillars of their weapon generation system.
Yeah, I love how Fallout handles it. And Bloodlines, too.
I think the way they have described it, "common, uncommon and exotic", may refer more to the availability of those weapons rather than quality, which means you wouldn't find one weapon of various rarities. So a normal poly-one-shot that you can find very easily (and legally) would be considered common, while a one of a kind, military grade railgun that you can only steal or find on the black market would be considered exotic, and that would line up well with the PnP.
Well, sure, it's a possibility.
That's precisely why I want to discuss this now, to know what they are aiming for in advance and (eventually) to give feedback that could stop them from picking a questionable solution as standard.
There isn't one.
This entire mechanic exists for one, and only one, reason.
To gate the items availible for use by the player to the content of the game.
Ok .... maybe there is a second reason ...
"Gee wizz hot damn ! I just got a purple drop!"
It really does.
The NPC's in 2077 have level indicators like Witcher 3 had... I sincerely hope that this does not also mean that we get pistol level 1 for 10 damage and suddenly start finding the same pistol but level 2 for 13 damage, or pistol level 5 (restricted since you are only level 4).
I understand the need of instant gratification mechanics added to the game because that's how games have been working for at least a decade now, but are we civilized humans or rats stuck inside a Skinner box?
Level locked, randomized items are a cheap way of adding time sinks and a fake sense of progression. I'm not saying there wouldn't be any, that's insane, but do you remember playing Baldur's Gate how huge was finding a +1 weapon? And finding a new, different one was worthy of stopping there and reading its whole description. That worked, and it didn't even have much variety, after all there aren't many ways to whack your enemy in the face. Here we can have any kind of standard and exotic firearm, and melee weapons too, that would insure enough variety already.
Do you want to make me interested in everything I loot? Here's how my modded Fallout: New Vegas worked: durability affects performance, weapons and armors can be repaired with generic kits for a minimum amount, with similar items for a small amount and with the same item/category for a decent amount. Rare items are precious and to be used in big occasions, common items are to be hoarded because well mantained items sell for much more to vendors. Everything is useful.
Now let's see how the Borderlandslike itemization has been received in both Original Sins and the very same The Witcher 3: it's been one of the first things mods aimed to erase.
"Mods will fix it"? Come on CDP, you're better than that.
Level locked, randomized items are a cheap way of adding time sinks and a fake sense of progression. I'm not saying there wouldn't be any, that's insane, but do you remember playing Baldur's Gate how huge was finding a +1 weapon? And finding a new, different one was worthy of stopping there and reading its whole description. That worked, and it didn't even have much variety, after all there aren't many ways to whack your enemy in the face. Here we can have any kind of standard and exotic firearm, and melee weapons too, that would insure enough variety already.
Do you want to make me interested in everything I loot? Here's how my modded Fallout: New Vegas worked: durability affects performance, weapons and armors can be repaired with generic kits for a minimum amount, with similar items for a small amount and with the same item/category for a decent amount. Rare items are precious and to be used in big occasions, common items are to be hoarded because well mantained items sell for much more to vendors. Everything is useful.
Now let's see how the Borderlandslike itemization has been received in both Original Sins and the very same The Witcher 3: it's been one of the first things mods aimed to erase.
"Mods will fix it"? Come on CDP, you're better than that.
I pray it's this. This would both fulfill the gratification/cheap sense of accomplishment requirement and avoid ticking off those of us who have been burned by such systems in the past.
"Oh, hello, here's the pistol you've spent five hours killing bandits for... except it has a mod that makes it spray-and-pray! Aren't you... what's the fireaxe for?"
If I want to bang my head against the table and question what I've done in a past life to deserve this, I'll reinstall Borderlands.
You know what's often the funny part? The "necessity" to gate things this way is often almost entirely self-inflicted, under the assumption that "numbers need to escalate constantly to keep players engaged".
Which is honestly not true.
Disappointing if so. I'd hope progression would come from perks, skills, attributes, and cyberware rather than "+10 shotguns."
Yeah, is some shitty mmo mechanics right there, don't need it in a single player game if it is there.
It's fine in MMO's and Diablo-likes. These games do not have engaging storytelling/worlds, so instead they addict players to the "grind" with systems of loot/progression that constantly drive the player...more DPS, more DPS!!!
They are also not designed to be Immersive, so enemy level scaling and level gating of equipment, are a non issue.
But it's horrible way to go for Single Player RPGs. You can have one player that does everything there is in the game and another that plays bare minimum ( main quest)...how do you balance gameplay/difficulty for both at the same time?
Only one solution: Level Scaling...which completely works against player progression.
CDPR's designers had a very naive idea how to resolve it (in Witcher)...Hey, let's use partial lvl scaling so that enemies get de/buffs within 6 lvl range of Geralt!
But the game was simply too humongous for that( as Cyberpunk will, no doubt, be), so plenty of players overlevelled everything anyway.
So they added restrictive skill "equipping" sets ( as grand Witcher can't remember to use more than few skills at the time...but it only made progression worse by not allowing you to use all you gain by levelling.
So they added loot scaling tied to player level...but this made defeating weak opponents as rewarding as difficult encounters
So they added quest experience lvl scaling...but being overlevelled made you receive nothing at all
So they added lvl based gear restrictions...but this turned ton of gear simply worthless as you'd usually find something better anyway, before you can equip ( whatever you were holding in inventory)
And finally they had to add Global lvl scaling ( as menu option)...but this negates char progression and makes plenty of enemies stupidly OP
This kind of reminds me of one of those Communist regimes economy crashes: Main currency gets insanely inflated, so they invent different counter measures while completely ignoring the core problem that's causing it... and they fix nothing and only end up making an even bigger mess.
Please, for the love of god, CDPR, do not do this.
Vertical scaling of gear/player/enemy stats and open world rpgs are fundamentally incompatible and do not work together.
Yep.
A well designed game, be it RPG, shooter, platformer, or any combination of the above is all that needed.
I've been running the same PnP game for over 30 years with some of the same players and characters. While nearly everyone has upgraded their starting gear most have been using the exact same gear for years. But since they're still playing one would have to assume they're still engaged.