GEAR and Crafting: Clothing, Armor, and doohickeys...

[ac01yte]

I'd much have it be more like the PnP RPG. Guns do damage based on the caliber. A 12mm handgun does 4d6+1. A 12mm SMG does 4d6+1 damage. Differences are in the quality, mag size, rate of fire and concealability. This last is a biggy. walking down the street with and assault rifle is a good way to get smacked in the corporate sections of town (shoot first and don't bother with the paperwork) and might get you robbed in the combat zone (niffty riffle - I wan't that).

- Shane

 

[Suhiira]

My concern is the FPS combat.

By it's very nature FPS is based on player skill, so character skills cannot be much of a factor.
So we have an RPG where character combat skills (typically a core factor in character design) either do not exist or aren't a significant factor in combat?

But if CDPR makes makes character attributes/skills a significant factor they disappoint/alienate the FPS fans who want standard "twitch", player skill based, combat.

I don't see a win here, no matter which way they go.

 

[geocp]

The smart rifle that had the enemyseeking bullets in the E3 demo was said to have an "EPIC WEAPON" tag.

I got a little vomit in my mouth after hearing that (I think it was int he Yong Yea video), and I'm still unsure if I heard correctly. But it would seem to confirm that they are "late game" weapons. And it would seem to confirm or at least imply that there is weapon scaling of some sort.

That weapon according to Yong Yea was a Kang Tao, a brand that exists in CP2020.

I've searched the various screenshots and found 3 Kang Tao weapons.
First 2 look identical, the 3rd one has different coloring...

 

[Raxaphan]

So we have an RPG where character combat skills either do no exist or aren't a significant factor in combat?

Like when Neo learns martial arts just by staying in the chair for a few hours.
This is what implants say to me: "if your skills suck use some tech and it will be fine".

This is the feeling I got when V gets the subdermal implant that helps with the gun handling.
I also found it funny that this implant also shows ammo count on the hud. That tactile feel must be real good.
I like implants to unlock infos that make sense.

What are attributes good for then?

I hope the message CP2077 offers is not a false 'everything about your character is important'.

 

[Baudolino05]

You know what's often the funny part? The "necessity" to gate things this way is often almost entirely self-inflicted, under the assumption that "numbers need to escalate constantly to keep players engaged".
Which is honestly not true.

It all boils down to a simple truth: this is and industry of trends.

The H&S/MMO itemization system proved time and time again to be successful, so people in the industry started to think that it has to be a good thing per se. Gosh, even experienced RPG developers like Larinas are unable/unwilling to admit what should be obvious: if something works in a semi-permanent game environment, where players are supposed to experience the same chunk of content again again before the next shiny content comes out, it doesn’t necessary mean that the same system will work in a finite game environment (SPOILER ALERT: it won’t).

CDPRs are definitely able to engage players through quest design and narrative; to a certain degree through combat and exploration; they made a HUGE game and they filled it with interesting contents, they even invented a fun CCG buiit in the game, but nonetheless they felt the need to “enrich” TW3 with this unnecessary skinner box. I hope they’ve learnt from their mistakes, but – honestly – I’m not that optimistic.

Vertical progression of player stats/equipment and Open world rpg...oil and water.

It never works and no amount of added features will fix this fundamental incompatibility.
This is one of the worst effects that MMO's and isometric arpgs ( like Diablo) had on single player rpgs. It creates enormous hyperinflation of base attributes that gets more and more and more out of control everytime you gain a "level", until they add global level scaling to "fix" the issue.
It also creates comical dissonance between narrative and the world...boars in Hearts of Stone are more dangerous than Eredin and his army.

I've wrote on this before.

Create distinct weapon categories , so that each is more advantageous in certain situation ( speed, armor penetration, precision, reach, ammo availability, etc),

Divide weapons in each type into three basic "tiers": standard ( average stats, high modability), high grade ( better stats, low modability) and Prototypes (highest stats/no modability).

Use weapon load out system, so choosing right equipment for the job is important choice. Weapon and armor mods, should add extra features to the item, instead of 2/3/X times more damage/reduction.

The game doesn't really need xyz types of pistols. Simply make each type distinct and more useful, depending on situation.

I was about to write down my solution for the itemization problem. But after reading you post I feel it’s completely unnecessary. Very well said.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

...
I don't see a win here, no matter which way they go.

I agree with the princple, wholeheartedly (and you know this since I've repeated it for 5+ years here).

But there are features they can still add on top of what they have (what is presented and described so far) that can alleviate the situation for a great deal for people like you and me and others of the same kind. And I suppose you know what I mean here too, since I've also repeated that ad nauseam here.

- Optional target lock mechanism that calculates hit chances based on character skill and other situational factors (and have combat difficulty setting determine how hard it is to pull off those hits).
- Tactical pause to assess and get a grip of what's going on.

That's two features that alone would already make a huge difference in how combat plays out. And while I'm not a coder or computing engineer, I suspect it's not that big of a deal to implement (relatively speaking... I don't mean it's a one afternoon hack job).

If going further, they could allow 3.2 second combat rounds through the tactical pause where you could que up certain actions (and have a working MA stat to count for the actions) and watch them executed -- and have manual movement in such way that while you move, the world moves alongside you (kinda like in Superhot). But that might be going a bit too far at this point...

The first two features I mentioned are what I'd try to press for now.

 

[doolydeath]

- Optional target lock mechanism that calculates hit chances based on character skill and other situational factors (and have combat difficulty setting determine how hard it is to pull off those hits).

what, like alpha protocol? no way jose.

edit: wait shit, somehow missed that you said optional. nvm. doubt we'll get that option anyway though

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

doubt we'll get that option anyway though

Everything's doubtful at this point.

 

[atomowyturysta]

Color codes may make sense. Let's say grey weapon. - mass produced in some outsource sweat shops oc South East Asia - cheap, unreliable, beakable. Silver - a common product, out of legit Militech, Fed Arms or Arasaka factories. Designed and manufactured for cyvilian/ street market. Gold - Military grade equipment. Simple, reliable, sturdy as hell, ugly looking. Purple - custom made weapons, manufactured in limited numbers for a specific end user.
I all can apply to a single model.
A cheap, Indochinois copy of Colt AMT (Grey)
Brand new Colt AMT at the gun shop in a mall (Silver)
US Military standard issue Colt AMT (probably designated M-something) (Gold)
Morgan Blackhand's own Colt AMT customized by Militech to his own preferences (Purple)

 

[Tuco]

Color codes may make sense.

As I said in the OP it's not the color coding that concerns me as much as some of the implications that typically carry with it.

If the game is going to have a set, finite amount of unique weapons with very defined stats and it will simply choose to classify them on a color-coded scale according to their quality, I have no issue with it.

On the other hand, if the game is going to have level-scaled (and level-gated) equipment with randomized stats we are going to have a problem, as far as I'm concerned.
I really don't want to play a loot-fest game. I'd wish for upgrades to be reasonably limited in number, relatively sparse and for each one to be sort-of a big deal. To feel that when I get a new thing is going to matter for at least a decent portion of the remaining playthrough, rather than being something I will most likely replace in seconds with an almost-identical drop with a +1 on top.
The idea of constantly picking up dozens and dozens of guns and spend a lot of time comparing their stats is a massive bummer, for how I see it.

 

[atomowyturysta]

That weapon according to Yong Yea was a Kang Tao, a brand that exists in CP2020.

I've searched the various screenshots and found 3 Kang Tao weapons.
First 2 look identical, the 3rd one has different coloring...

View attachment 10971719

View attachment 10971722

View attachment 10971725

That Kang Tao thing looks like Kriss inspired SMG with underbarrel GL or shotgun. However, it looks really strange. The open breach and the visible barrel, that for some reason has the rifling on the outside seem very out of place. And if that mag in the front is actually a GL or SG clip, where is the said GL/SG barrel? Initially I thought that it is the SMG clip, but you can clearly see Kriss like SMG clip on the hand guard. Really confusing design...

 

[atomowyturysta]

As I said in the OP it's not the color coding that concerns me as much as some of the implications that typically carry with it.

If the game is going to have a set, finite amount of unique weapons with very defined stats and it will simply choose to classify them on a color-coded scale according to their quality, I have no issue with it.

On the other hand, if the game is going to have level-scaled (and level-gated) equipment with randomized stats we are going to have a problem, as far as I'm concerned.
I really don't want to play a loot-fest game. I'd wish for upgrades to be reasonably limited in number, relatively sparse and for each one to be sort-of a big deal. To feel that when I get a new thing is going to matter for at least a decent portion of the remaining playthrough, rather than being something I will most likely replace in seconds with an almost-identical drop with a +1 on top.
The idea of constantly picking up dozens and dozens of guns and spend a lot of time comparing their stats is a massive bummer, for how I see it.

I read you. level based weapon/gear system would be bad. I kind of works in fantasy game, where everything is always taken with a grain of salt and the players are accustomed to it. But in Cyberpunk, it would suck if you come across, say M31A1 and the info reads "Level 11. -17% Ref, -8% ACC due to level difference". But I believe they said the progression system is not level based. So that shouldn't happen. I think. As for stats boost, weapons should have some characteristics on their own but not boos or diminish PC stats. Maybe in some understandable situations. A 20mm Anti materiel rifle should reduce a PC movement and ability to quickly acquire targets. Not give +7 to Intellect and +4 to Ref Maybe some social skill boost. A big gun is intimidating.

 

[Tuco]

But I believe they said the progression system is not level based. So that shouldn't happen.

Well, they said it, but the press already spotted leveled enemies and color-coded equipment in the presentation, which is why these threads exist.
To discuss "the issue" and let CDPR what's the common opinion on the topic before it's too late to do anything about it.

In fact I'm actually hoping for one of the devs who usually monitor this board and comment to chime in and at least vaguely tell us what's the team current plan on this topic.

Now that I mention it...
Hey, @Marcin Momot @KyleRowley - Any chance to have some semi-official "feedback on the feedback"?

 

[atomowyturysta]

My concern is the FPS combat.

By it's very nature FPS is based on player skill, so character skills cannot be much of a factor.
So we have an RPG where character combat skills (typically a core factor in character design) either do not exist or aren't a significant factor in combat?

But if CDPR makes makes character attributes/skills a significant factor they disappoint/alienate the FPS fans who want standard "twitch", player skill based, combat.

I don't see a win here, no matter which way they go.

Well. Skills can affect the damage output. Say a 12mm round has potential damage 10-20. Low skill would lower the low number and the high skill would heighten the high number. So it would become 5-20 and 10-25 respectively. It can also affect critical chance and critical damage output. Game will be using some kind of aimbot system (apart from smartgun system) which could possibly be based on PC skill.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Now that I mention it...
Hey, @Marcin Momot @KyleRowley - Any chance to have some semi-official "feedback on the feedback"?

That'd be nice indeed.

There are some pressing issues that could use some clarification, and possibly even a short exchange of words if that's at all possible.

 

[atomowyturysta]

Well, they said it, but the press already spotted leveled enemies and color-coded equipment in the presentation, which is why these threads exist.
To discuss "the issue" and let CDPR what's the common opinion on the topic before it's too late to do anything about it.

In fact I'm actually hoping for one of the devs who usually monitor this board and comment to chime in and at least vaguely tell us what's the team current plan on this topic.

Now that I mention it...
Hey, @Marcin Momot @KyleRowley - Any chance to have some semi-official "feedback on the feedback"?

I think that level of enemies is more info about what to expect from them, not that "They are this and that level higher and gets this and that bonuses because of lvl difference". And, at this stage, a lot of things is at some point WIP.

 

[Loostreaks]

I think that level of enemies is more info about what to expect from them, not that "They are this and that level higher and gets this and that bonuses because of lvl difference". And, at this stage, a lot of things is at some point WIP.

It's possible, but why not present this to player more intuitively than Lvl numbers?

I'll never understand this. You can see how passionate devs are and time and effort that goes into creating these believable, authentic worlds, down to the smallest details...and then they add these MMO features that, to be blunt, piss all over it.

Why not use implant to you this information: threat assessment based on physical/mental/etc condition, training and available technology. But no levels: npcs, quests or equipment.

It just feels so jarringly out of place.

 

[doolydeath]

there you go folks

 

[Tuco]

View attachment 10971752

there you go folks

I... don't really feel like it's actually addressing what's being discussed here, honestly.

 

[doolydeath]

I... don't really feel like it's actually addressing what's being discussed here, honestly.

well.. atleast its something. gives me the impression that we won't be getting constant throwaway diablo loot at the very least, which is comforting.

Am I reading it wrong?