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In game character Perspective!

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Suhiira

Max-Tac
Aphex81;n10471202 said:
It is no coincidence that the top RPGs of all time are almost exclusively isometric CRPGS.
Well ... Bloodlines, DA-Origins, and Witcher 3 are all what I'd consider "top RPGs of all time". It's really a matter of how much time/effort goes into making a game. If you have limited time/money then I can certainly see your point. Fortunately for us CDPR isn't laboring under either of those limitations.
 

Snowflakez

User
Suhiira;n10472292 said:
Well ... Bloodlines, DA-Origins, and Witcher 3 are all what I'd consider "top RPGs of all time". It's really a matter of how much time/effort goes into making a game. If you have limited time/money then I can certainly see your point. Fortunately for us CDPR isn't laboring under either of those limitations.
Suhiira;n10472292 said:
and Witcher 3
Is that you, Su?

 

Suhiira

Max-Tac
Snowflakez;n10476452 said:
Nothing, I'm just teasing. I didn't think TW3 appealed to you much.
Well ...
I think it's a "bit" over-hyped as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's a decent enough game.
 

atomowyturysta

Tourist
I hope there will be the visual variety of clothes, armors and accessories. Both retro, retro future as well as contemporary cyberpunk style (I mean GitS, DE style). I'm not a fan of retro future, but I understand a lot people are, so I hope they ( and I) will get what they want. Not like those guys who don't want anyone to have TPP in the game :)
 
atomowyturysta;n10830351 said:
Not like those guys who don't want anyone to have TPP in the game
Yep, gotta have a open mind with this game, the same applies to music too, I don't want only one genre what I want instead is variety of radio stations!
 
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Snowflakez

User
atomowyturysta;n10830351 said:
I hope there will be the visual variety of clothes, armors and accessories. Both retro, retro future as well as contemporary cyberpunk style (I mean GitS, DE style). I'm not a fan of retro future, but I understand a lot people are, so I hope they ( and I) will get what they want. Not like those guys who don't want anyone to have TPP in the game :)
It'd be silly to think TPP isn't going to be in this game. It's been in every single other game CDPR has made, and they clearly understand how many people love to see their characters equipment, so I don't understand being against it. It's not like you can't have both.
 

Shavod

Booster
Snowflakez;n10831871 said:
It'd be silly to think TPP isn't going to be in this game. It's been in every single other game CDPR has made, and they clearly understand how many people love to see their characters equipment, so I don't understand being against it. It's not like you can't have both.
My main problem with third person perspective when it comes to games like that is that it feels way too restrictive and limiting when it comes to interacting with your environment. Having two perspectives to switch between seems like a good idea in theory, but in practice usually you can clearly see which one is obviously favored by the developer, meaning the other feels just tacked on (for example look at Bethesda games). So if they focus on first person perspective, it means that playing in third person perspective will be only valid for walking around, while most of the interactions will be handled in first person anyway. On the other hand focusing on TPP means that, as I said earlier, interaction with environment will be far more limited, which will carry on FPP mode as well. Which is why I would ultimately prefer FPP mode exclusively for being most beneficial for the experience.

As for "looking at yourself" bit, there are many other opportunities you can have for that, even without third person perspective like inventory menu, mirrors, water puddles, dialogues and cutscenes. I mean Kingdom Come did just that and I don't think anyone complained about not being able to see your character all the time.
 

Sneky

CyberPsycho
Shavod;n10832761 said:
My main problem with third person perspective when it comes to games like that is that it feels way too restrictive and limiting when it comes to interacting with your environment. Having two perspectives to switch between seems like a good idea in theory, but in practice usually you can clearly see which one is obviously favored by the developer, meaning the other feels just tacked on (for example look at Bethesda games). So if they focus on first person perspective, it means that playing in third person perspective will be only valid for walking around, while most of the interactions will be handled in first person anyway. On the other hand focusing on TPP means that, as I said earlier, interaction with environment will be far more limited, which will carry on FPP mode as well. Which is why I would ultimately prefer FPP mode exclusively for being most beneficial for the experience.

As for "looking at yourself" bit, there are many other opportunities you can have for that, even without third person perspective like inventory menu, mirrors, water puddles, dialogues and cutscenes. I mean Kingdom Come did just that and I don't think anyone complained about not being able to see your character all the time.

GTA V did good job with both TPP/FPP, but i agree that FPP is more important for overall gameplay experience. But TPP at least for exploration is must have imho, even more if there will be tons of customization and outfits.
 

Rawls

Moderator
atomowyturysta;n10830351 said:
Not like those guys who don't want anyone to have TPP in the game
Snowflakez;n10831871 said:
It'd be silly to think TPP isn't going to be in this game. It's been in every single other game CDPR has made, and they clearly understand how many people love to see their characters equipment, so I don't understand being against it. It's not like you can't have both.
Shavod;n10832761 said:
My main problem with third person perspective when it comes to games like that is that it feels way too restrictive and limiting when it comes to interacting with your environment.
Taking this over here.

I really think it depends on what type of character build one has. Normally when I'm playing a game, certain builds are better FPP and certain are better TPP. In melee combat TPP is almost necessary if you want to have any sort of in depth maneuvering and attack variability. For ranged combat the opposite is true, FPP is far superior for aiming. In walking around the world ... my favorite option is being in TPP and pushing a button to switch to FPP to more closely inspect items.

So ideally I would like the default to be TPP when navigating the world ... with the option to go to FPP at the push of a button. When a weapon is drawn the perspective changes based on which type of weapon is selected. If it's a melee weapon or some sort of non-aiming device (like a bomb or something) ... TPP. If it's a ranged weapon the camera zooms in over the shoulder and then into FPP until the weapon is changed or holstered.

The biggest difficulty I foresee would be when switching between weapons. Does it switch back to TPP regardless of which weapon is selected?
 
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Shavod

Booster
Sneky;n10834121 said:
GTA V did good job with both TPP/FPP
GTA V was a special case. FPP mode was added in an updated rerelease for PC and new consoles, it also required a crazy amount of work to make it function that well. I remember that Rockstar, among other things, had to make all the main characters gameplay animations for first person perspective from scratch.
 

Shavod

Booster
Rawls;n10834151 said:
The biggest difficulty I foresee would be when switching between weapons. Does it switch back to TPP regardless of which weapon is selected?
They did something like that in Vampire: Bloodlines. During the exploration you could switch freely between first and third person, but during combat when you used a ranged weapon, you automatically switched to first person, and when you were using melee weapon, you were switched to third person.
 

kofeiiniturpa

CyberPsycho
Rawls;n10834151 said:
Normally when I'm playing a game, certain builds are better FPP and certain are better TPP. In melee combat it's almost necessary if you want to have any sort of in depth maneuvering and attack variability. For ranged combat the opposite is true, FPP is far superior for aiming.
What about when there are supposed to be RPG mechanics that - as they should - aim to distort the contorl accuracy so as to present character building his ability? Would FPP still be "far superior for aiming"; considering that that's the most usual aspect gamers tend to complain about, that their crosshair or iron sight was allegedly dead-on but they still missed. I don't mind that (I like that it works like that far more than the opposite where when reaching that point where I always hit where I point my sights, the game turns boring as there's no more character to progress in this regard). And given how lethal Cyberpunk is supposed to be, I'm just going to call it here that there won't be damage progression with bullets (through skill increments) like it usually is handled in FPS-RPG's.

Third person allows the game provide a more plausible and more heavyhanded effects from those RPG mechanisms without breaking the players (uncalled for, since they are separate) selfsubstitution of the character through control distortions the player isn't responsible for himself (even if he might be guilty of ignoring their purpose and neglecting their diminishment through better character progression).

I'd make first person a vanity mode to look at things close up and to partially increase the feeling of simulation, but have all combat with its distinct and specific mechanics in third person (just as well as all activities where character control might be distroted by stats, like driving for one example).
 

Snowflakez

User
Shavod;n10832761 said:
My main problem with third person perspective when it comes to games like that is that it feels way too restrictive and limiting when it comes to interacting with your environment. Having two perspectives to switch between seems like a good idea in theory, but in practice usually you can clearly see which one is obviously favored by the developer, meaning the other feels just tacked on (for example look at Bethesda games). So if they focus on first person perspective, it means that playing in third person perspective will be only valid for walking around, while most of the interactions will be handled in first person anyway. On the other hand focusing on TPP means that, as I said earlier, interaction with environment will be far more limited, which will carry on FPP mode as well. Which is why I would ultimately prefer FPP mode exclusively for being most beneficial for the experience.

As for "looking at yourself" bit, there are many other opportunities you can have for that, even without third person perspective like inventory menu, mirrors, water puddles, dialogues and cutscenes. I mean Kingdom Come did just that and I don't think anyone complained about not being able to see your character all the time.
Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think TPP is far superior for this sort of game. I want to see my character at all times, puddles and mirrors are too infrequent to be good examples.

It's worth pointing out Henry in KCD is a fixed protagonist (a malleable one, but still), not custom. You can customize his equipment heavily, but his face, body type, skin tone, hair and/or beard, all of that is set in stone. I didn't really care to look at him much in third person.

Additionally, the entire game was designed around first person. They could have just as easily designed it around third person and it would have been fine. It was a creative decision to go that route because of the type of game they wanted to make. Nothing about what CDPR has said so far has suggested their game needs to be FPP to work, except that it might have action-y shooting, and I'd just point you to GTA if that's the case.
 

Snowflakez

User
kofeiiniturpa;n10834541 said:
What about when there are supposed to be RPG mechanics that - as they should - aim to distort the contorl accuracy so as to present character building his ability? Would FPP still be "far superior for aiming"; considering that that's the most usual aspect gamers tend to complain about, that their crosshair or iron sight was allegedly dead-on but they still missed. I don't mind that (I like that it works like that far more than the opposite where when reaching that point where I always hit where I point my sights, the game turns boring as there's no more character to progress in this regard). And given how lethal Cyberpunk is supposed to be, I'm just going to call it here that there won't be damage progression with bullets (through skill increments) like it usually is handled in FPS-RPG's.

Third person allows the game provide a more plausible and more heavyhanded effects from those RPG mechanisms without breaking the players (uncalled for, since they are separate) selfsubstitution of the character through control distortions the player isn't responsible for himself (even if he might be guilty of ignoring their purpose and neglecting their diminishment through better character progression).

I'd make first person a vanity mode to look at things close up and to partially increase the feeling of simulation, but have all combat with its distinct and specific mechanics in third person (just as well as all activities where character control might be distroted by stats, like driving for one example).
Yeah. Agreed.

CDPR already has a certain track record in this regard and I don't see a reason for them to switch it up now. TW3 did just fine in third person, 2077 will, too.

Also, I love beautiful character animations, and seeing beautiful character animations in third person is a huge selling point for me in any game (icing on the cake, gameplay matters more).
 

sv3672

Max-Tac
It is a matter of preferences, which is why it would be best if the game included both, and the player was free to choose either (with the probable exception of cutscenes and cinematic dialogues).
 

Shavod

Booster
You know, when it comes to choosing between possibility to see your character all the time and more interactivity in gameplay, I always choose the latter. The former for me seems like a very minor and insignificant thing to be implemented in the game like this. In Kingdom Come we might had predefined character, but let's not forget we had bunch of FPP oriented RPG games in the past with the player created character as well (again, Bethesda games) and it didn't seem to bother anyone that they can't see their character all the time. As for what CDPR is going to decide, we don't know yet, just because something was in that other popular franchise of theirs (was it The Butcher? I can't never remember the name) doesn't mean we will have the same thing in Cyberpunk, especially since it seems like CP is going to contain a lot of features that were not present in the other series.
 

Rawls

Moderator
kofeiiniturpa;n10834541 said:
What about when there are supposed to be RPG mechanics that - as they should - aim to distort the contorl accuracy so as to present character building his ability? Would FPP still be "far superior for aiming"
IMO yes. It's about the perspective of the shot ... it's better in my opinion to be in first person than third person. Having said that, if one lacks skills in aiming, I think it would be ideal that the aim of the shooter be very unsteady, recoil very disruptive, shot pace slower, and etc. I would prefer those features regardless of whether the view is FPP or TPP.

If you forced me to pick which perspective I could have with only one choice ... I would pick TPP. However, I think a blend would be a better approach.
 

Snowflakez

User
Shavod;n10836501 said:
You know, when it comes to choosing between possibility to see your character all the time and more interactivity in gameplay, I always choose the latter. The former for me seems like a very minor and insignificant thing to be implemented in the game like this. In Kingdom Come we might had predefined character, but let's not forget we had bunch of FPP oriented RPG games in the past with the player created character as well (again, Bethesda games) and it didn't seem to bother anyone that they can't see their character all the time. As for what CDPR is going to decide, we don't know yet, just because something was in that other popular franchise of theirs (was it The Butcher? I can't never remember the name) doesn't mean we will have the same thing in Cyberpunk, especially since it seems like CP is going to contain a lot of features that were not present in the other series.
It's great that you feel that way, but like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. There is no objective argument to be made here. Just opinions and creative decisions. We'll see what CDPR does, but I'm absolutely expecting a third person game, or a hybrid.
 
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