As several people mentioned, the discrepancy isn't just in the amount of romance specific content or story relevance. Maybe hindsight really is 2020, but when you look at the bigger picture and notice that imbalance exists pretty much everywhere and it's always only Kerry and/or River who are on the receiving end, it's difficult to see that equality.
We did that though. Several times. We talked what kind of improvements are needed, even offered suggestions where we think some additional dialogue could be fitted into. But you're right that it's definitely more useful focusing on how this issue can be fixed.
As several people mentioned, the discrepancy isn't just in the amount of romance specific content or story relevance. Maybe hindsight really is 2020, but when you look at the bigger picture and notice that imbalance exists pretty much everywhere and it's always only Kerry and/or River who are on the receiving end, it's difficult to see that equality.
That's understandable. Admittedly I might have a different perspective on it. The V I played and characters I romanced is very different from my real world preferences. So no matter how hard I try to identify with people who possess different preferences it's at best an approximation. It says a thing or two when I look at the romances in game, given my own preferences, and think some of them were lacking in a major way. The gap is presumably much greater in reality.
We did that though. Several times. We talked what kind of improvements are needed, even offered suggestions where we think some additional dialogue could be fitted into. But you're right that it's definitely more useful focusing on how this issue can be fixed.
Yeah, it's been discussed a lot in this thread. It's all very good. There are many productive suggestions. At this point the ball is in CDPR's court. It's up to them to address it. Hopefully they view it as something worth looking into and improving.
I don't think think time constraints can be used as a reason for the lack of content for River and Kerry. The writing of a game is usually finished a lot earlier than the programming. If normal development procedures are being followed, the characters, their relationship with V, their questlines and the dialogue should have been written and defined months (years?) before the actual programming. You don't come up with a new important character in the last months while the game is being polished, scribble down their romantic dialogue and start coding at the same time, that's just not how it's done. And, to bring up the artbook again: I'm relatively sure the artbook that came with the special edition and that shows that River and Kerry apparently weren't even worth the same number of pages as the girls, was produced and printed months before the release. They must have known for a long time that there was going to be a disparity, they did not cut out stuff last minute that they didn't finish on time.
I agree with you. While I do think that the lack of time was definitely a issue with the male LI's, I don't think that was the only (or even the biggest) reason. To me it's clear that Kerry and River were not a priority or treated with the same care as Judy and Panam. It's the fact that both of them are tied to the bad ending (unlike the girls), both can be easily missed if you're not really interested in completing everything the game has to offer, the fact that V can't even flirt with Kerry before their first kiss, the exemple you gave about how they have less pages in the artbook compared to the girls just proves, at least to me, that they were not that important to CDPR as the girls, and that makes me really sad because I love Kerry and River, but right now I don't really have any hope left that they will adress their lack of content in the game. I want to be wrong, but... yeah.
Sorry if I sound too pessimistic, I'm just really disappointed.
It's really hard to argue with this. While the male romances are not my personal preference (in fact I would even say I like Kerry more as a character than as anything else), it can't be denied the simple fact that in a custom character RPG (as most of them are) all the romances ought to be given more or less the same amount of content and importance for the game's plot, because the game's canon is left for the player to decide, and the chosen romance is part of that canon.
it can't be denied the simple fact that in a custom character RPG (as most of them are) all the romances ought to be given more or less the same amount of content and importance for the game's plot, because the game's canon is left for the player to decide, and the chosen romance is part of that canon.
Even if CDPR never fixes it, the show of solidarity from the people that either aren't interested in romances at all or aren't personally invested in the characters being talked about is oddly soothing to some of the bitter that's built up over the last few days of developments (or non-developments.)
Because there's really no good way to say that people that romanced River and Kerry mostly exist in this miserable, pessimistic state on the forum while Panam and Judy's threads flourish. Kerry has a thread because Soykaff is a doll, but any River threads are just a few pages asking what on earth happened to him. Starting an appreciation one seems a little pointless when there's not really much else to say about him besides "did I miss something?" and the inevitable "ew, River" comments. And I don't think this is just because there's more of them than us. They're more hopeful about the endings, they're confident they're getting more content for their faves, it's like they played an entirely different game.
Starting an appreciation one seems a little pointless when there's not really much else to say about him besides "did I miss something?" and the inevitable "ew, River" comments.
They're more hopeful about the endings, they're confident they're getting more content for their faves, it's like they played an entirely different game.
It really is. They basically did. The ending you get for your character (or even just your first character, bc we can play again and again) greatly colors the experience and opinions you're going to have. And it's not as simple as just playing to romance Panam or Judy to get a happier ending with a happier love interest. I've romanced the girls and I love them, but they're not my choice.
To contribute something productive, I tried to put my feedback and thoughts how things could be improved into a single post. Some parts will focus on Kerry because I remember his questline best.
Post 1.5 patch revision.
1. Talk to me Like One of Your Romance Options
Kerry's romance severely lacks romance specific dialogue options that could have been used to flesh out his romance and show an actual progression happening in his romance arc. It is odd that V isn't allowed to flirt with Kerry at all until Off the Leash (Kerry's second to last quest) which negatively affects player immersion, because we're not given any explanation as to why V can't show interest in Kerry at all until the end of his storyline.
This is where I think some dialogue could work without disrupting the flow of the existing dialogues.
This is the only place where I think a flirty dialogue option would work, because it's the one quiet moment in an otherwise active quest.
This one is a bit tricky, because it's possible to miss talking to Kerry here, but it's also possible to miss a kiss from Panam in Riders on the Storm but that option still exists.
Off the Leash has romance specific dialogue, so it's not needed there. 1.5 patch added a new text after this quest called "Serious Business", however, despite the timing there's nothing romance related in that text. It would have been nice if Kerry texted after Off the Leash referencing the romantic moment him and V shared on the roof of Dark Matter. Perhaps "Serious Business" text could be moved to trigger after I Don't Wanna Hear It because Kerry doesn't send any texts after that quest?
However late or early Kerry's romance suppose to pick up, some dialogue during Boat Drinks is very much needed, because V acting completely uninterested until it's time for the sex scene creates jarring inconsistency in V's behaviour and disrupts pacing in Kerry's romance. Here's where I think some dialogue could work, in my opinion.
Some light flirting could work during his phone call. Similarly to how Judy and female V can flirt during a call that starts the Pyramid Song quest.
Flirty dialogue option upon meeting Kerry at the marina could work too, I think.
Something here would be most difficult to add because weaving some dialogue here that would lead into what Kerry says afterwards might be too difficult, but I included this here anyway more as a wishful thinking.
2. Relic Malfunction Detected
Relic malfunction scenes were a great way to develop V's relationship with their friends by letting them see V's more vulnerable side. Regardless of Kerry's relationship with V, no such scene exists in his questline which I think is a bit of a missed opportunity.
When Johnny brings up Kerry up to speed, Kerry's TL;DR version "biochips, Arasaka's evil schemes, magic pills" only pertains to Johnny and the player is never made aware if Kerry even knows that V is dying. His romanced rooftop phone call during NocturneOp55N1 made me think that Kerry might really don't know how serious the situation actually is, because it's very likely Johnny never told him. Neither did V.
Perhaps the lack of such scene is meant to give the player a breather before jumping right into NocturneOp55N1 quest, but said breather comes at the expense of a relationship that is lacking development and could really use some fleshing out. Besides, it's only possible to meet Kerry in Act 3, and V should be doing worse health-wise, so I truly don't think that a relic malfunction scene would be out of place in Kerry's personal questline.
So, where could a relic malfunction scene fit?
I think the very end of Off the Leash quest would work best.
It wouldn't have to be a big scene where V passes out. A smaller scene like the one in Judy's apartment during Talkin' Bout a Revolution could work just as well. V could simply take a step forward, start coughing up blood or groan in pain and stumble a bit, similarly to what happens when V is approaching the room where the fight with Oda takes place in during Play it Safe quest. Kerry would hear that, queue the relic talk.
If nothing else, maybe his romance rooftop phone call during Nocturne Op55N1 quest could be expanded so V could tell him what's really going on then?
3. Post-questline Content
New text messages and an option to wake up next to V's love interest were wonderful additions. But, there is something that Kerry lacks that other love interests have. Post-questline romance dialogue. Shortly after the game's launch, a user on tumblr discovered cut or simply unused audio for romance specific Kerry's greeting. This getting restored would be really appreciated. Maybe at least one romance specific dialogue option too, because I believe everyone except for Kerry has one.
That’ll have to be the post that makes me break my hiatus, try and grab some screenshots to help catch the River crew up.
The Relic malfunction point is a big one. Kerry needs it more, since it’s still unclear he knows the extent of the situation and that’s an issue and River was at least given the chance to know in a dialogue choice. But for both it’s a missed chance to show a caring/gentle side and bring them a little closer to V. For River it could even be an opportunity to show the difference between “River you just met” and “River that has feelings, platonic or otherwise.” I Fought the Law can be the control, since V can put that spiked BD on and River comes rushing in concerned. You just met him though, so it’s not really relationship building. It's more character building, showing that River is just a caring guy or at least feels deeply responsible for people he works with. I’m trying to find a video of a MaleV doing it to see if he reacts the same as FemV but every YouTube guy seems to skip it.
Edit: Found one! It looks like River does act the exact same way when V puts on the BD, regardless of gender. Same yell, same hand placement when he's patting them down to see if they're okay.
I forgot to look for one earlier, but found one with male V. It's probably the same though.
Edit: missed the edit. My bad. Still, I think it would be nice if the relic talk wasn't romance exclusive and male V could talk about it to River too. To develop their friendship a bit. I'm just surprised that V can't talk to Kerry about the biochip at all.
Considering that the relic malfunctions when you reach the top of the water tower and River is just right there I don't understand how he misses it ...
Considering that the relic malfunctions when you reach the top of the water tower and River is just right there I don't understand how he misses it ...
Does it really? It's been awhile and I haven't reached River on my new playthrough yet. I remember my first experience with it I actually got a call from Panam when I got to the top of the tower, since you can't ignore phone calls he had to sit there waiting for me to wrap it up. Game didn't want me to go more than a few minutes without remembering the REAL important characters.
In my playthrough it did, he was talking about the view and V was grunting in pain... I was wondering why he didn't say anything about it... perhaps it was a problem with my playthrough? Realoaded many times and it always happened.
I remember my first experience with it I actually got a call from Panam when I got to the top of the tower, since you can't ignore phone calls he had to sit there waiting for me to wrap it up. Game didn't want me to go more than a few minutes without remembering the REAL important characters.
Oh... damn... this is the wost way to kill the mood... devs favorites characters throwing themselves over the ones we like most... (yes Liara I am looking at you).
In my playthrough it did, he was talking about the view and V was grunting in pain... I was wondering why he didn't say anything about it... perhaps it was a problem with my playthrough? Realoaded many times and it always happened.
I'm guessing it was one of those random malfunctions that happens when you're out and about exploring the world. I don't think they're suppose to trigger in the middle of the quest, so lack of reaction to these from the characters is understandable.
By relic malfunction scenes I meant the cutscene ones. Like the one I linked with Judy, with unique dialogue. Those scenes are there specifically for story purposes so that V could talk to their friends Judy and Panam about the biochip.
Judy caught my attention at first, cause she looks like an ex.
Then again, yeah, it's been about time that flashback faded away.
I am left without someone I'd actually romance in CP2077. Guess I can visit Joytoys and stuff. The dark side of my V: no love left for anyone, having sex by habit. Only living to harass gangs and rid the NC of Scavs. When Maelstrom see her, they clear the street by crawling up the walls if necessary. V, the one that raided Arasaka tower single-handedly. Mourning friend Jackie forever.
Broken.
But the special day will come, and she'll be driving a Caliburn through the Crystal palace, wreaking havoc. Like a bull in the glass store.
So... can we have more Joytoys? Some 30 different ones would do.
This is literally the only reason I haven't started one yet, unfortunately. I don't trust the community at large no matter how positive I want to be.
It really is. They basically did. The ending you get for your character (or even just your first character, bc we can play again and again) greatly colors the experience and opinions you're going to have. And it's not as simple as just playing to romance Panam or Judy to get a happier ending with a happier love interest. I've romanced the girls and I love them, but they're not my choice.
I always thought there were going to have more joytoys because of the way the game was described and presented, and then it turned out we only had these scarce options. Sucks, cause there are so many pretty joytoys arond (like the redhead who's sitting on the floor against the wall near Fingers' clinic), and it really limits the RP aspects of your playthrough if you wanna play as the V you described.
The guys at Sony would probbaly have a fit if theres was more random sex in the game...But, yeah, 4 joytoys in the whole game and the last two don't even seem to show up for everyone, is kind of pathertic.
But I could have gone totally without random joytoys if you could actually interact with your love interest after their their quest was over...or in between quests....
But I could have gone totally without random joytoys if you could actually interact with your love interest after their their quest was over...or in between quests....
Same. I don't care about sex scenes in video games, so lack of joytoys isn't an issue for me personally, as I never interacted with any of them. But it would definitely be nice to be able to interact with the romance options more.
I don't expect new quests or an option to invite them to V's apartment. Anything else I'd like to see, things like a unique romance specific greeting and one or two unique romance related dialogue options after completing their questlines falls into an already existing content imbalance issue as some characters, like Judy, already have both of the aforementioned things. Though new text messages for all of them would be nice, maybe a little gift or unique piece of clothing from all?
the only thing I'm really glad they did not copy from Bioware ist that some LIs become unbearably sappy in how they adress the player once you've romanced them. For example, Jaal in MA:I starts calling Ryder "darling one" and writes REALLY syrupy emails...which just makes me want go back in time and just stay friends...
I'm sure, romance-specific greetings can be done in a less in-your-face-way...
I always thought there were going to have more joytoys because of the way the game was described and presented, and then it turned out we only had these scarce options. Sucks, cause there are so many pretty joytoys arond (like the redhead who's sitting on the floor against the wall near Fingers' clinic), and it really limits the RP aspects of your playthrough if you wanna play as the V you described.
Even being able to hire a Joytoy to follow you around or have a meaningful random chat at a bar over a drink would be worth it. Y'know, part of the job is also to just listen and talk, not just to screw.
Just saying...
Ah yes, please NO adoring fans. That one was extremely annoying.
