[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Kashola_]

You don't understand what I mean. There is a reason to question her motives. That is exactly what I did, albeit only in proxy. I had no reason to question what she said about "everything being different after soulkiller", and the name being quite literal.
So for me the most logical path was to avoid the soulkiller at any cost.

Again, like we're going in circles.

I brought up the themes of transhumanism. What makes a consciousness is the meat. You ARE your meat. With the body/mind separate you lose that connection.

Johnny to live in V's body has to change V's body to accommodate him. This is showing the importance of the human body.

ALT , again, has no experience with this. If you cannot or choose not to connect the dots the narrative is showing you then that's again, on you. For such a big question the game asks, "what makes you, you" to have Misty console you and tell you everything is ok would undermine this question.

I get the mechanics of writing a narrative is what you're focusing on, but I feel you're ignoring what we already have.

And with that i'm done. I am not interested in talking in circles anymore. In 6 months to two years you might be proven right, or I will, or neither of us will and CDPR will be making money with their version of Shark cards.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

The Soulkiller black IC originally copies then wipes the minds of its victims, leaving a vegetable, an empty husk. The body is intact, but there is no one inside. Hence the name, "soulkiller".

And when the soulkiller was created, there was no chance to re-upload the mind to the body.
That changed with the biochip.

 

[apeabel]

If the point of Soulkiller was that we were to dwell on it and wonder whether V after Soulkiller is still V or not, then they fucked communicating that up too, since the main focus of most people in this thread is the 6 month expiration date instead of Soulkiller.

Kinda strange why the default ending with Arasaka wasn't that (V has tumors after removing the biochip) + all the other side content related endings not mentioning a timeframe that short. Drama and dark Cyberpunk atmosphere, I guess

That is not the explanation in the original PnP lore tho. And this is completely irrelevant to my statement because Alt never explains it ingame.

That's what the game says though. Alt created Soulkiller and died to it. Johnny states that.

 

[Kikinho]

The solution is so simple.

Just cut the BS-cancer out of the endings. Maybe V wants to become an Ingram... Not the worst ending for a netrunner and the world itself is shit.
In most endings, V has to live with being responsible for many good people's death and the possibility that the soul is lost. (religious people)

In addition the bodily harm endured during the process forces V to settle down after the low effort ending. Choice engram and the chance to get e fresh and strong body or live a long life as a possible fixer.

Penam ending - V retires and leaves the idea behind to become a legends in the city.

The legend ending is a bit more tough to explain but in essence, V takes on the final mission to become a living legend. Boarding the crystal palace in a suicide mission. Open end.
It would be different though, because V would take on the job because it would cement the status as a living legend instead of doing it to just go down in a blaze of glory.

Just add additional triggers or a few side missions where V gets the opportunity to dodge the BS if the player put enough effort into the game.

It would perfectly be within the borders and reality of the games universe.

Alternatively, just cut out the cancer lines... when I see the pile of cut content, those few additional voice lines would not matter anymore.

Agree with your points. But I personally too tired at this point to discuss possible solutions. There are as many ideas as many people on the forums and all of them could be valid.

I personally would'nt have even mind my arasaka>back to earth ending if the game would allow me to say goodbye to my loved ones in person, and be able to finish the sidequests in the last 6 month.

I really only dived into this discussion so deep because the game didn't give me the minimal closure I deserved.

 

[i-Czer]

The solution is so simple.

Just cut the BS-cancer out of the endings.

That's what most people here would approve of. Or at the very least, make it avoidable within the game.

 

[onosendai7]

That is not the explanation in the original PnP lore tho. And this is completely irrelevant to my statement because Alt never explains it ingame.

There are plenty of things that are not explained in the video game .
And yes, it is what soulkiller is in cyberpunk lore. https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Soulkiller :
Developed in a lab on the 120th floor of Arasaka Towers in 2013, the Soulkiller virus is a program capable of creating a digital emulation or copy of a netrunner's mind, utilizing an advanced matrix recorder storing it in a huge database. It then wipes the original personality away, leaving a mindless husk that eventually dies. Few mainframes in the world are capable of running the program, with the only mainframes running it present in Arasaka Towers in Night City, or in Tokyo.

 

[Kikinho]

Kinda strange why the default ending with Arasaka wasn't that (V has tumors after removing the biochip) + all the other side content related endings not mentioning a timeframe that short. Drama and dark Cyberpunk atmosphere, I guess

That's what the game says though. Alt created Soulkiller and died to it. Johnny states that.

Thing is, when Alt says that the Soulkiller does what the name promises, she kinda indicates that there is actually a soul, and the program kills it.
Now you can argue that she meant in a methaphorical way, but the problem is, noone in the game points that out. Noone in the game questions if she meant it literally or if she is just refering to our body turning into a corpse.
If someone for example Misty, or hell even if V would challange that statement, I would be so much more keen to believe that she didn't mean it in a literal way.
But as things are in the game, what Alt says is: There is a soul, and you lose it if you use the machine. Now if that is a big deal or not, that is personal opinion. Obviously people who don't believe in a soul will interpret it a way that it means you won't actually lose anything.

 

[Blaz1us]

Anyway, soulkiller =/= what you experience/d at Mikoshi.

 

[Kikinho]

There are plenty of things that are not explained in the video game .
And yes, it is what soulkiller is in cyberpunk lore. https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Soulkiller :
Developed in a lab on the 120th floor of Arasaka Towers in 2013, the Soulkiller virus is a program capable of creating a digital emulation or copy of a netrunner's mind, utilizing an advanced matrix recorder storing it in a huge database. It then wipes the original personality away, leaving a mindless husk that eventually dies. Few mainframes in the world are capable of running the program, with the only mainframes running it present in Arasaka Towers in Night City, or in Tokyo.

And then it goes further to explain that the name soulkiller comes from the fact that engrams that are trapped within slowly lose their humanity factor due to lack of any stimulus within the net space. But again. This is not explained in the game. And the funny thing is, if Alt doesn't make that casual comment about everything changing, noone would even think twice to use the soulkiller. That line as it is currently only serve the purpose to make the story feel deeper with a phylosophical undertone, when in reality, it shows 0 effort in exploring it further.

 

[onosendai7]

Thing is, when Alt says that the Soulkiller does what the name promises, she kinda indicates that there is actually a soul, and the program kills it.
Now you can argue that she meant in a methaphorical way, but the problem is, noone in the game points that out. Noone in the game questions if she meant it literally or if she is just refering to our body turning into a corpse.
If someone for example Misty, or hell even if V would challange that statement, I would be so much more keen to believe that she didn't mean it in a literal way.
But as things are in the game, what Alt says is: There is a soul, and you lose it if you use the machine. Now if that is a big deal or not, that is personal opinion. Obviously people who don't believe in a soul will interpret it a way that it means you won't actually lose anything.

This is the bullshit the writers introduce to forbid the immortality in the machine, introducing the soul, a religious notion, where there is only the mind.
That's pretty lame, and absurd.

 

[apeabel]

That's what most people here would approve of. Or at the very least, make it avoidable within the game.

It should be avoidable by completing certain goals in the game. It just isn't.

Thing is, when Alt says that the Soulkiller does what the name promises, she kinda indicates that there is actually a soul, and the program kills it.
Now you can argue that she meant in a methaphorical way, but the problem is, noone in the game points that out. Noone in the game questions if she meant it literally or if she is just refering to our body turning into a corpse.
If someone for example Misty, or hell even if V would challange that statement, I would be so much more keen to believe that she didn't mean it in a literal way.
But as things are in the game, what Alt says is: There is a soul, and you lose it if you use the machine. Now if that is a big deal or not, that is personal opinion. Obviously people who don't believe in a soul will interpret it a way that it means you won't actually lose anything.

Yes, Alt straight up states that there is a soul that perishes. First conversation with her.
Isn't the point of this that nobody questions it outright? When Soulkiller is used on V, the soul part dies.
From what we see in the game, that seems pretty clear to me.
Johnny is on the other side, telling us Alt is spouting nonsense.
But at that point I'm more inclined to believe the all-powerful AI instead of the rocker's ego.

 

[enkee23]

Is it possible, according to the lore of the game, for example, to abandon Alt, return to the body, connect yourself to the net, then disconnect from the body and fly away into cyberspace alone?

 

[onosendai7]

And then it goes further to explain that the name soulkiller comes from the fact that engrams that are trapped within slowly lose their humanity factor due to lack of any stimulus within the net space. But again. This is not explained in the game. And the funny thing is, if Alt doesn't make that casual comment about everything changing, noone would even think twice to use the soulkiller. That line as it is currently only serve the purpose to make the story feel deeper with a phylosophical undertone, when in reality, it shows 0 effort in exploring it further.

Minds copied by the soulkiller are programs. Programs feel time only if they are run. Alt was run immediatly after being copied, and never stopped, which means she is CENTURIES old, not years. Stored minds may not be run at all, and thus are not active. See Dixie the Flatline character in Neuromancer, for instance.
And as I said, there are so many things not explained in the game. The lore of Pondsmith's universe is so vast it's a shame CDPR did not even bother to fill the holes.
Besides, the soulkiller is used by Arasaka in the game with their program Save your Soul. Souls are copied and stored, not run. Thus, no decay.

 

[i-Czer]

It should be avoidable by completing certain goals in the game. It just isn't.

Exactly. But as far as fixes go, this would be the easiest for them to implement. They just won't.

 

[Kikinho]

This is the bullshit the writers introduce to forbid the immortality in the machine, introducing the soul, a religious notion, where there is only the mind.
That's pretty lame, and absurd.

This is the bullshit the writers introduce to forbid the immortality in the machine, introducing the soul, a religious notion, where there is only the mind.
That's pretty lame, and absurd.

I personally think there is nothing wrong with factoring in the soul and human experience. But when you do something like this, you'd better be ready to give me a full act on about exploring what this all means in relation to what my goal is.
I would have been happy touse the soulkiller if I get an act where it's explained that the soul is essentially the human experience itself, blah blah. I am pretty sure there are plenty other ways to explain it in a believable way and stay fit in with he use of soulkiller. But the writers did nothing to explore what the human soul means in a world where you can lose your humanity without even dying.

 

[SaulTuk]

Now i will probably make a point nobody will agree with, but i for myself was not so displeased by imminent death of V in every ending. Firstly, men, who have freely chosen a life of crime and violence, in most cases die violently and early, being far from achieving wealth and glory. Secondly, i was not attached to V in the first place, because V was driven by lust for glory and success, and i don't feel that lust in myself.
All this doesn't excuse poor writing of CP77, players deserves a chance to obtain at least one agreeable ending, where V at least lives, although at steep price of his friends, dreams, freedom etc.

 

[StarkHelsing]

Well, we don(t know much about that. That may also be some propaganda to keep people not looking.


The AI as made of lines of code. These lines are stored somewhere and they need computing power to operate. AIs use distributed resources to run. The need processing power and electrical power and bandwith. Nothing else. The information constituting them are stored somewhere and they can be accessed anytime. What is more relevant is that Alt is in the net for more than 50 years, and that is a very long time. This very long time is the cause of the changes of her mindset.

Sorry, I disagree.
Johnny is her last lover. Johnny is the guy who stormed Arasaka tower for her. Rogue was Johnny's input before Alt, and she came to rescue her. Alt is not jealous, I believe she's beyond such pettiness. But Johnny indeed needs Alt's help. Netwatch too because they want to broker some agreement with the AIs to rebuild the net, and the voodoo boys want an agreement for their own goals (ie : gather enough power to be independant and safe)

No she does not.
She had revenge 60 years ago when Johnny tried to rescue her, or when the Arasaka Tower was bombed. She a god in the machine. Do you really think she cares for the mere mortals ?
Alt has absolutely nothing to gain in absorbing the engrams. It is somewhat costly to her because she has to find more storage space and more processing power. I believe this is some plot-hole in order to forbid the "immortality in the machine" ending.

Nope. Neither Netwatch or the NUSA are in position to destroy the AIs. Netwatch and the NUSA are a small part of the Cyberpunk world.
Agreed, there are some murderous rampaging AIs, but they are not organized to end humanity. This is not a prelude to The Matrix.

Maybe, maybe... She could indeed be a good AI in a story where AIs are bad. I still think she's talking out of her backside, but again, that simply could just be due to poor writing.

But it does leave us with something. Alt has left and gone through the Blackwall either taking Johnny or V with them - not both. What does this mean for the NUSA? I mean, I also wouldn't consider the 'New United States of America' small, it's one of the big powerhouses in this world. Especially with Militech being a driving force of corporate power. And I say that as someone who isn't American and isn't all 'Oh yay, America fuck yeah'. What brokering of peace is there to be had now?

 

[Kikinho]

Minds copied by the soulkiller are programs. Programs feel time only if they are run. Alt was run immediatly after being copied, and never stopped, which means she is CENTURIES old, not years. Stored minds may not be run at all, and thus are not active. See Dixie the Flatline character in Neuromancer, for instance.
And as I said, there are so many things not explained in the game. The lore of Pondsmith's universe is so vast it's a shame CDPR did not even bother to fill the holes.
Besides, the soulkiller is used by Arasaka in the game with their program Save your Soul. Souls are copied and stored, not run. Thus, no decay.

I agree with you on that. My exact issue with the story is that it touches topics so superfically that it can be considered a plothole for many. They needed to expand and explain so much more about the universe in a first hand experience way.

 

[onosendai7]

Now i will probably make a point nobody will agree with, but i for myself was not so displeased by imminent death of V in every ending. Firstly, men, who have freely chosen a life of crime and violence, in most cases die violently and early, being far from achieving wealth and glory. Secondly, i was not attached to V in the first place, because V was driven by lust for glory and success, and i don't feel that lust in myself.
All this doesn't excuse poor writing of CP77, players deserves a chance to obtain at least one agreeable ending, where V at least lives, although at steep price of his friends, dreams, freedom etc.

The fact that V. dies in the end is not the problem.
The fact that nothing can avoid that is. The fact that it is brought up in the 10 last minutes of the game, "oh, and you gonna die in 6 months, Cya", is also pathetic. This is bad storytelling.
Also, I don't believe in karma. V. can be the most rotten son of a bitch and get away with it, as long at V. is a smart SoB.

 

[Kikinho]

Now i will probably make a point nobody will agree with, but i for myself was not so displeased by imminent death of V in every ending. Firstly, men, who have freely chosen a life of crime and violence, in most cases die violently and early, being far from achieving wealth and glory. Secondly, i was not attached to V in the first place, because V was driven by lust for glory and success, and i don't feel that lust in myself.
All this doesn't excuse poor writing of CP77, players deserves a chance to obtain at least one agreeable ending, where V at least lives, although at steep price of his friends, dreams, freedom etc.

I agree with you. I am not against death in the endings. It's the impact of that death and the nature of it that I can't dismiss.

As I said many times, if the Araska ending would give me closure, I would go even as far to say that the journey was worth it.