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[SPOILERS] Soulkiller technology

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Night_City_Native

Night_City_Native

Forum regular
#121
Jan 10, 2021
enkee23 said:
In the first meeting, Alt says that she will record consciousness and engram, but the soul will cease to exist.
But then in the final after Mikoshi Alt says that V will continue to live as before if he returns to his body.

Are there any other references in the game about the soul and what does it mean?
Does soulkiller really transfer the real V? Do we see the new copied V in the epilogue?
I ask you not to speculate and to show facts from the game itself or lore if it's possible.
Click to expand...
That gets into the whole deal about what exactly is consciousness, which even scientists and philosophers struggle to answer. That is probably why the game seems to give contradictory impressions. Going forward V is probably meant to wrestle with the idea of whether they're actually V or just a copy. There probably won't be a definitive answer.

Tl;dr: Up to your (and V's) interpretation
 
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Witzzard

Witzzard

Forum regular
#122
Jan 10, 2021
Night_City_Native said:
That gets into the whole deal about what exactly is consciousness, which even scientists and philosophers struggle to answer. That is probably why the game seems to give contradictory impressions. Going forward V is probably meant to wrestle with the idea of whether they're actually V or just a copy. There probably won't be a definitive answer.

Tl;dr: Up to your (and V's) interpretation
Click to expand...
Personally i agree and think they simply went wrong with Alt chiming in on it.
It's imo much easier to have the Ai tell you how it's a true person and the human contradict it, then some other way around, in terms of how it feels then.
 
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enkee23

enkee23

Forum regular
#123
Jan 10, 2021
nobody asks how dragons exists in game of thrones because of magic
cp is technomagic, no difference
even your logical thoughts are irrelevant without proof
 
Aedus Amaterasu

Aedus Amaterasu

Forum regular
#124
Jan 10, 2021
Night_City_Native said:
That gets into the whole deal about what exactly is consciousness, which even scientists and philosophers struggle to answer. That is probably why the game seems to give contradictory impressions. Going forward V is probably meant to wrestle with the idea of whether they're actually V or just a copy. There probably won't be a definitive answer.

Tl;dr: Up to your (and V's) interpretation
Click to expand...
Another way to look at is not as being "copied" but instead as a change in the state of being. The general effect SK produces is not unique to SK. The only thing really unique about it is that those it is used on are imprisoned.
 
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Motsie

Motsie

Forum regular
#125
Jan 11, 2021
Night_City_Native said:
That gets into the whole deal about what exactly is consciousness, which even scientists and philosophers struggle to answer. That is probably why the game seems to give contradictory impressions. Going forward V is probably meant to wrestle with the idea of whether they're actually V or just a copy. There probably won't be a definitive answer.

Tl;dr: Up to your (and V's) interpretation
Click to expand...
The contradictory understand of Soulkiller might also just be intentional in order to sell a character that isn't reading from the soulkiller wiki. It's probably not exactly common knowledge unless you're Hellman or Saburo.

More to the topic of how SK works, I forget that this isn't really even a ship of Theseus situation (I thought it was). V's body is the key part in this transaction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the basic, cursory understanding of SK is that it:
  • Cannot transfer consciousness. It can only create a simulation of it based on memories and personality which is recorded as binary. We know that accessing memories is easy to do (braindance), so it points to being a tangible thing that can be recorded by Soulkiller (and in turn create a believable copy of someone with a sense of self-awareness). Effectively it's a new consciousness.
What isn't clear is how you are transferred back. Soulkiller only exists in a massive server - it isn't on the biochip (those are the nanites that contain the information). If it cannot transfer a consciousness (only simulate it), then would it also follow that it cannot transfer the digitized consciousness back to the body?

V is effectively connected to Mikoshi/SK through what looks like a headphone jack, and not the chip slot. So the input system is different.

So what is SK doing to your brain if we assume it cannot transfer consciousness in either direction. Is it restoring your memories and brain activity in the form of electrical stimulation (like how a CPU functions on a motherboard)? Is it capable of injecting nanites? If nanites then why are they incapable of repairing the neural damage?

If electrical stimulation, would it follow that the consciousness of the original host is still there? Or is this a completely new consciousness far removed from the simulated one in digital space?

Ah, so many questions...brain hurts.
 
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Aedus Amaterasu

Aedus Amaterasu

Forum regular
#126
Jan 12, 2021
Motsie said:
  • Cannot transfer consciousness. It can only create a simulation of it based on memories and personality which is recorded as binary. We know that accessing memories is easy to do (braindance), so it points to being a tangible thing that can be recorded by Soulkiller (and in turn create a believable copy of someone with a sense of self-awareness). Effectively it's a new consciousness.
Click to expand...
(My opinion)
This actually appears to happen anytime some one dives into cyberspace. This is shown in game and lore where it is talked about how so many netrunners became trapped in cyberspace when Netwatch unleashed the Blackwall AI and could not return to their bodies. This would imply that your Mind/Consciousness can be transferred, at least into cyberspace, and quite easily with the right equipment.

(My opinion)
SK severs the link between the body and mind while simultaneously copying that mind's memories from their brain and frying the brain while imprisoning the mind into the Engram SK created with the memories it copied. This is further supported by the fact that SK can only be used on someone in cyberspace or someone hooked directly up to SK.

Motsie said:
What isn't clear is how you are transferred back. Soulkiller only exists in a massive server - it isn't on the biochip (those are the nanites that contain the information). If it cannot transfer a consciousness (only simulate it), then would it also follow that it cannot transfer the digitized consciousness back to the body?

V is effectively connected to Mikoshi/SK through what looks like a headphone jack, and not the chip slot. So the input system is different.

So what is SK doing to your brain if we assume it cannot transfer consciousness in either direction. Is it restoring your memories and brain activity in the form of electrical stimulation (like how a CPU functions on a motherboard)? Is it capable of injecting nanites? If nanites then why are they incapable of repairing the neural damage?

If electrical stimulation, would it follow that the consciousness of the original host is still there? Or is this a completely new consciousness far removed from the simulated one in digital space?

Ah, so many questions...brain hurts.
Click to expand...
(My opinion)
SK is just a virus. Mikoshi isn't SK, it is just a massive server farm in orbit where all the Engrams are stored. The game implies in a lot of ways that Yorinobu stole more then just the Relic from his father and that he also stole SK and placed it on the Relic as well. The massive servers that are talked about a lot are required for the Engrams not SK. Just storing all the Engrams Arasaka has requires lots of massive servers dedicated to it.

The nanites are strictly a Relic thing and not connected to SK's general function. The idea of the Relic and it's nanites was the hope for putting any Engram put on the Relic into any body and the nanites would genetically alter the body to prevent any kind of rejection.

(My opinion)
This is what Alt did to V.

When V jacks into Mikoshi she uses SK to sever V's mind from their body and creates a Engram of V's memories to link to their mind now adrift in Mikoshi, while also separating her from Johnny, cause V needs her memories to know what is going on and to be able to make the choices needed.

What Alt also did was edit SK so that it doesn't mess with V's brain beyond just coping.

Then when V lays down into the Mortal Well Alt plucks her mind from the Engram and reconnects it to her body and uses the Relic to add V's memories from their time in Mikoshi to her brain.

How Alt reconnects V to their body isn't really explained, however, we do know that Alt has done this multiple times before.
 
Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
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Sarah_Nie_en

Sarah_Nie_en

Fresh user
#127
Jan 12, 2021
I don't understand how it was possible for Saburo to make an engram of himself. I thought the body will die when this happens? That's the reason why it's called soulkiller? Because the original person dies?
 
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Aedus Amaterasu

Aedus Amaterasu

Forum regular
#128
Jan 12, 2021
Sarah_Nie_en said:
I don't understand how it was possible for Saburo to make an engram of himself. I thought the body will die when this happens? That's the reason why it's called soulkiller? Because the original person dies?
Click to expand...
Only SK kills, the Secure Your Soul program is a modified version of SK and does not kill those it is used on.
 
Sarah_Nie_en

Sarah_Nie_en

Fresh user
#129
Jan 12, 2021
Aedus Amaterasu said:
Only SK kills, the Secure Your Soul program is a modified version of SK and does not kill those it is used on.
Click to expand...
Thank you! Do you now when they talk about it ingame? In Cyberpunk wiki they only mention Soulkiller, which is also used on the VIP's and so on.
Does this mean V 'survives' the procedure to get an engram in the Arasaka ending?
20210112_122723.jpg
20210112_122702.jpg
 
Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
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enkee23

enkee23

Forum regular
#130
Jan 12, 2021
Sarah_Nie_en said:
Does this mean V 'survives' the procedure to get an engram in the Arasaka ending?
Click to expand...
mikoshi and relic are a storage, SK is ai/virus which copies/transfers data from original host to mikoshi
nobody informs directly so yes he survives in hanako ending but
but after talking with Yorinobu V awakes in same cyberspace where Alt uses SK in others endings, so Arasaka also uses SK to erase JS from V
 
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Sarah_Nie_en

Sarah_Nie_en

Fresh user
#131
Jan 12, 2021
enkee23 said:
mikoshi and relic are a storage, SK is ai/virus which copies/transfers data from original host to mikoshi
nobody informs directly so yes he survives in hanako ending but
but after talking with Yorinobu V awakes in same cyberspace where Alt uses SK in others endings, so Arasaka also uses SK to erase JS from V
Click to expand...
I mean after that scene, when you sign the contract and the epilogue video starts. You go in this room with the Arasaka doctors. I would like to know if you survive the procedure or not. It seems you don't, but regarding to the facts, you should survive like Saburo.
 
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enkee23

enkee23

Forum regular
#132
Jan 12, 2021
Sarah_Nie_en said:
I mean after that scene, when you sign the contract and the epilogue video starts. You go in this room with the Arasaka doctors. I would like to know if you survive the procedure or not. It seems you don't, but regarding to the facts, you should survive like Saburo.
Click to expand...
no direct answer but
in this thread somebody ( and me ) came to conclusion that if a body was disconnected when engram was in mikoshi at that moment then original mind died (alt is the example) + contract text informs that engram is a copy
saburo also could be just a copy we don't know how he used sk
 
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Aedus Amaterasu

Aedus Amaterasu

Forum regular
#133
Jan 12, 2021
Sarah_Nie_en said:
Thank you! Do you now when they talk about it ingame? In Cyberpunk wiki they only mention Soulkiller, which is also used on the VIP's and so on.
Does this mean V 'survives' the procedure to get an engram in the Arasaka ending?
View attachment 11139377View attachment 11139380
Click to expand...
Ok first thing we have to talk about is that the Relic is machine hardware. It is only meant to interface with Engrams and the target host body. It never directly interacts with SK or SYS.

SK is a malicious virus that kills people while trapping their mind and copied memories inside a Engram that is then stored in Mikoshi. While Secure Your Soul(SYS) is a modified version of SK it is a different program in function and purpose. It only copies a person's memories into a Engram and causes no harm. It is made pretty clear at the end, in my opinion, more so in some endings, that SYS was a lie and was never going to work how Arasaka promised. Arasaka was only using SYS to steal information from the powerful. This is what pretty much destroys Arasaka in the end cause the whole world now knows what SYS really was.

Sarah_Nie_en said:
Thank you! Do you now when they talk about it ingame? In Cyberpunk wiki they only mention Soulkiller, which is also used on the VIP's and so on.
Click to expand...
I honestly can't quote any in game conversation of the top of my head at the moment sorry. Though there are some shards in the game that refences this stuff if I remember correctly. There is also a Cyberpunk wiki page for SYS. Just google, "Cyberpunk Secure Your Soul".


Sarah_Nie_en said:
Does this mean V 'survives' the procedure to get an engram in the Arasaka ending?
Click to expand...
If you are referring to the ending where you agree to the join the SYS program. Then yes V would have survived because they didn't use SYS on V they used SK on them so V's mind would have been separated from their body and placed into a Engram along with a copy of their memories. Though it is left to you as to whether you think Arasaka will keep their word and get you a new body or just leave you forever adrift in Mikoshi. However, given what we know about the true purpose of SYS I would, in my opinion, find it very unlikely that V ever gets a new body and if by some chance they do they will have a very different set of memories from what they had when they went under and their feelings toward Arasaka will be very different as well.
 
Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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enkee23

enkee23

Forum regular
#134
Jan 14, 2021
during the first walkthrough I was surprised why hanako asked about the soulkiller in "Chambers"
i saw point of no return and decided to clear sidequests and forgot about hotel scene with proxy

i started a second walkthrough and during conversation with the proxy V said: " ... who invented soulkiller. Used her own modified version now"
in Panam sidequest V said: "Johnny is alive"
also during the game you find some messages where sys program works not so good

now the story is ok for me
alt found that SK1 can storage living engrams and modified it for arasaka as SK2
js mind was tranfered by SK2 and then murphy released alt who took SK2 with herself
arasaka's 2077 SK is near as SK2 but can only copy an engram
ant i think thats why jackie is weird in mikoshi
 
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G

Goodmongo

Forum veteran
#135
Sunday at 4:07 AM
Willowhugger said:
Except according to Alt, she can in fact destroy and create souls.
Click to expand...
I missed the part where Alt claims she can create souls. Where was that?
 
Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#136
Monday at 3:12 AM
Goodmongo said:
I missed the part where Alt claims she can create souls. Where was that?
Click to expand...
She says that Soulkiller destroys the soul and your new soul will replace it.
 
enkee23

enkee23

Forum regular
#137
Monday at 7:42 AM
Willowhugger said:
She says that Soulkiller destroys the soul and your new soul will replace it.
Click to expand...
when did she say it?
 
G

Goodmongo

Forum veteran
#138
Monday at 1:57 PM
Willowhugger said:
She says that Soulkiller destroys the soul and your new soul will replace it.
Click to expand...
I watched videos with Alt at the Black Wall and the endings and can't find any reference to her saying she can create souls or that your new soul will replace it. Engrams yes, souls no. Please point to the scene where this is discussed as I'm really interested in finding it.
 
Willowhugger

Willowhugger

Forum veteran
#139
Monday at 2:01 PM
Goodmongo said:
I watched videos with Alt at the Black Wall and the endings and can't find any reference to her saying she can create souls or that your new soul will replace it. Engrams yes, souls no. Please point to the scene where this is discussed as I'm really interested in finding it.
Click to expand...
Uh, Johnny flat out gets upset that Alt says that soulkiller destroys your soul and that it will be replaced by the Engram.

If you watched it you heard it.
 
G

Goodmongo

Forum veteran
#140
Monday at 2:17 PM
Willowhugger said:
Uh, Johnny flat out gets upset that Alt says that soulkiller destroys your soul and that it will be replaced by the Engram.

If you watched it you heard it.
Click to expand...
And where the hell does that say Alt can "create souls"? Context here please. The point being a claim was made that Alt can "create souls". I asked for where this was stated. your answer does nothing to resolve that.

Engram <> soul.
 
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