They also didn't thought there was a problem with Triss until fans brought attention to it, so I don't see no problem doing the same here and as far as I can see I have some good and valid arguments for this cause and I see no arguments against it, also because it would only improve the situation and not worse it in any way.
People just look for explanations why it is this way and some will eventually conclude that this might have something to do with Triss. Saying "No, it has nothing to do with it." doesn't improve the situation at all, people are still sad about the lack of it and for some that changes to disappointment or even worse anger, and I don't exclude myself from that development. I am still sad and angry about this, and if the expansion doesn't do anything for this, it will always have this flaw for me.
Considering that they changed things for Triss, but not for Yennefer/Ciri, also worsen the situation in my opinion, because it backs up the idea for some that it indeed had something to with Triss. They could fix the issue with Triss, but not about Yennefer/Ciri or the family aspect in general? Despite knowing how huge that aspect was in the books? So they care more about romance than staying truthfully to the characters? and so on.
Of course people are going to disappointed and even angry then (just like people were about Triss), can't blame them, and the lack of communication with CDPR here also didn't really help at this matter.
I think I showed in-depth and in detail in my first post how Ciri really feels towards Yennefer and how much that differs to the game, so I am pretty much hoping for a wonder here now, even though something simple like letting Ciri say "mother" would have been already enough for most people, however not even that is apparently possible. But I will wait until 31th May to finally give up, maybe not everything here was in vain after all.
Do you have a source to back that up ? Developers can be unsatisfied with many things, compromises had to be made and content cut, but the game had to ship at some point. However, they have no obligation to explain everything to fans, let alone without being asked first. It is entirely understandable if they do not publicly admit problems before they are being complained about, that is just bad PR for no particular gain. But when there are people within the company who are not satisfied with something in the game, it is also more likely that they will listen to complaints from the community that are along the same lines.
From what I have seen in leaked documents and in the game files, more content was apparently planned for Triss, although not necessarily romance related, but more role in some late game quests. Of course, that could still have involved better reactivity to the romance choice as well, even in the short unused scene about the Lodge in the final quest there is conditional dialogue depending on whether Triss is romanced. However, adding quest content would have been beyond the scope of what is possible in a patch, so the few short dialogues in version 1.10 focused only on the romance aspect. Another issue is that the order of some quests was changed around Act 2, thus for example Ugly Baby was written with the assumption that it will be played before Now or Never and several other quests, now it can be in any order, but it was too late to update the quests to take this into account.
These changes (deletions and quest reordering) explain a lot of the complaints once you know about them, and chances are the developers were aware of the issues, too. After all, such decisions are extensively discussed and are not easy to make. It is just the reality of game development that what is shipped in the end is often not perfect. It is still fairly good though compared to some other developers.
I do not mind that either, but as posted above, your complaints have already been looked at by the lead writers. So, as far as communication goes, your first thread from a year ago was already successful, the suggestion was seen by the right people within the company. But that does not mean it necessarily has to be implemented, it is entirely normal if it is rejected because the writers do not share your views or for whatever other reason (cost etc.). Lots of suggestions have been made to add content, but very few actually make it into the game.
People just look for explanations why it is this way and some will eventually conclude that this might have something to do with Triss.
They have denied this accusation repeatedly (see above and below in this post as well). It is difficult for communication to be productive if you assume that the other party (in this case, the actual developers of the game) is lying. That just discourages further communication, as it can already be seen in GingerEffect's last replies.
Considering that they changed things for Triss, but not for Yennefer/Ciri, also worsen the situation in my opinion, because it backs up the idea for some that it indeed had something to with Triss. They could fix the issue with Triss, but not about Yennefer/Ciri or the family aspect in general? Despite knowing how huge that aspect was in the books? So they care more about romance than staying truthfully to the characters? and so on.
It is not true that they changed nothing for Yennefer or Ciri, the new dialogues added in patch 1.10 involved all three main NPCs and both romance paths. And to quote more developer responses regarding the alleged favoritism:
Since Marcin has updated you a little, I'd like to add a bit to that, since apparently some people seem to believe this particular issue is getting preferential treatment.
Here is the thing. The major thing. I know it's gonna be a shock to some but...we are not perfect. (LEGASP!!!!!)
The biggest issue that we as a team identified with the Triss situation is that the current implementation does not really represent the very core design philosophy we hold dear. Namely, that your choices carry consequences and those consequences WILL present themselves to you.
As it has been stated in the opening thread, the consequences of choosing Triss are not adequately represented. This was something that was brought to our attention by this thread. We went back and looked at it again and realized that yes, this is indeed an inconsistency and one that deserves our attention. So we sat down, took our notes from your suggestions and checked what is viable to do. The result of that is what you will eventually see.
To the people who are somehow annoyed that we will correct the inconsistent consequences that are currently present in the Triss romance I say this: Please understand that this is not a case of us changing something simply because fans want it. This is because fans alerted us to something which we, internally, discussed (hence the long silence in between replies) and eventually agreed that it did not fit our core philosophy of including consequences to the choices the player can make.
In any case, I hope this clears things up a bit and puts a rest to the infighting about which issue deserves what kind of attention.
I can assure you that we were not sitting in a board room checking a bar graph over the mass market appeal of adding additional dialogue lines to appease some elusive crowd.
We saw the feedback because we read the forums, we decided that it was a very valid opinion that we personally wanted to fix and that it was a fix that we could in fact do rather easily. It's as simple as that. Every time we have something to say or announce, we happily do that and tell anyone who asks if we can, but if that is not the case (yet), we simply keep observing the forums, read all the feedback and discuss it. Don't worry, we are always there.
Of course, you are free to assume they were not telling the truth (even if it is not nice to publicly accuse them of such), but then chances are you might not have accepted a more detailed explanation either - the fundamental problem is the lack of trust.
And it is not true either that if an issue with A is addressed but another with B is not then there is necessarily favoritism towards A. It could also mean that in the developers' opinion, there is simply no need to change B because it is already good enough. In fact, aspects of the game that are considered lower priority during development are more likely to end up needing fixes after the release, and even after that still be incomplete. For example, if a small cameo quest was added for Iorveth (a character planned to have a major role but completely deleted) now, would that imply that Iorveth is given preferential treatment over Yennefer and Ciri in Witcher 3 overall ?
I think I showed in-depth and in detail in my first post how Ciri really feels towards Yennefer and how much that differs to the game, so I am pretty much hoping for a wonder here now, even though something simple like letting Ciri say "mother" would have been already enough for most people, however not even that is apparently possible. But I will wait until 31th May to finally give up, maybe not everything here was in vain after all.
Indeed, there are differences between the books and the games, but that is normal, the writers at CDPR are free to evolve the characters and their relationships as they see fit. It is understandable if they do not change their established concepts of these even after reading complaints, and in fact they did not in the 1.10 dialogues either, which were basically "more of the same". In my opinion, it is ultimately best to accept these differences and enjoy the games for what they are.
Thankfully, i can rectify another glaringly obvious ( or should i say "blindingly obvious" ) "issue" here by myself. It's high time i pulled out the magical list for "special people".
Do you have a source to back that up ? Developers can be unsatisfied with many things, compromises had to be made and content cut, but the game had to ship at some point. However, they have no obligation to explain everything to fans, let alone without being asked first. It is entirely understandable if they do not publicly admit problems before they are being complained about, that is just bad PR for no particular gain. But when there are people within the company who are not satisfied with something in the game, it is also more likely that they will listen to complaints from the community that are along the same lines.
Very interesting... Then, perhaps you can enlighten us and show where have they acknowledged "not enough trees in act 2 and 3" as something they see as a problem in their game. Because, from what I've seen in the Triss thread, you're not too keen on respecting the developer's "creative choices" on this particular matter.
It would be rally nice and refreshing to hear for once what's the problem with people voicing their complains and suggestions in this thread instead of repeatedly parroting "artistic integritah", "respect their autoritah" over and over again, when you don't seem to practice this yourself (as evidenced by your post history on the matter of Triss' screentime).
Geralt: Anything stopping you?
Cirilla: Obligations, duties. I'm only here because papa, I mean, Emhyr, concluded I must get to know what I'll rule once I take the throne. So I'm on a tour of the provinces with a small swarm of advisors.
What's the point in discussing it anymore? It looks like even Reds aren't interested in it, never were...
We don't get any explanation why they let this down so much despite making it so good between Geralt and Ciri.
If there is no bad blood between Ciri and Yennefer, why doesn't she act like she is used to?
If the romance with Triss wasn't the cause why they didn't show too much of Yen/Ciri in the game, what else is the reason?
Instead of giving us something, they changed nothing in this regard, even worse now Ciri calls Emhyr Papa in the emperess ending. He is the very reason why she had such a shitty life up to this point! He doesn't deserve to be called like this, not anymore, never again.
Not a single RED came and tried to solve or at least explain the situation, the only time someone did was just to clarify that Triss had nothing to do with it, so unless Triss is mentioned, a Red hasn't been seen yet...
This is literally the best happy ending I could've imagined for Geralt and Yennefer and yet it feels like something is still missing and will always be missing, because this is the damn end and despite all the preaching I did in the last months, rallying up people for this, not a damn thing was changed nor did we got a single comment by a red.
They brought back a dead person, made Trissfans literally their dream come true by letting Geralt say that he always loved her, but we don't get one single word: mother or mommy or mama
Heck, we don't even get any kind of reaction, nor by Ciri or Reds about this matter. That's what disappoint me at most, the lack of communication. I want to understand why they don't feel this is necessary, but it was necessary to call Emhyr Papa.
---------- Updated at 12:27 PM ----------
http://pommeverte3.tumblr.com/post/141613185287/yennefer-of-vengerberg-in-the-witcher-book-series
Something more
There are clues in the firsts books that Yennefer is more than what meets the eyes at first. Among them is the fact that she is not satisfied with the life she is living. She wants something more, something she could never have, she needs somebody to love, she has so much love to give actually. And she also needs someone who could love her back, love her for who she really is deep inside. And so she wanted to have a child, which of course she couldn’t have being a sorceress and all. And here we can tell two things : First, Yennefer has so much love to give, she wants nothing more than to love someone, she would give anything for a shot at being a mother. And then, one of the things I like the most about Yennefer, her determination. When she wants something, when she cares about something or someone she is all in, she never stops, she never gives up. She knows it’s impossible but she tries anyway. It is heartbreaking to imagine her trying and trying again for years, and yet it is beautiful to see that she still has so much hope and faith.
And here of course comes Ciri. And Yennefer’s maternal instinct kicks in really fast. She instinctively behaves like a mother with Ciri, and a damn good one too. She is strict when she needs to be but also really warm and caring. And most of all she doesn’t let go of her strength, her wit, her sarcasm. Sapkowski is one of the few authors who understands that you can show the softer side of a character without depriving her from her personality. The result is great. And I love the fact that just like Geralt, Ciri can see right through Yennefer’s walls, she sees who she really is and she loves her deeply.
Then there is that moment when Ciri calls Yennefer mom for the first time. And then everything changes. Geralt had managed to crack the armor, Ciri at this moment, with only one word, tore it to pieces.
This is already the Yennefer we can see in the game, she is desperate to find her and cares for her the same way she did in the books, but where is Ciri? Where's the girl from this story in the game?
Umm...are you talking to me? ??? Anyway...yeah, i was pretty sure we would get nothing regarding Ciri-Yen's relationship. After W2, i stopped having high expectations of CDPR staying true to the characters' relationships, lore-wise.
I guess we should be grateful that , in W3, we got to witness the bond between Geralt and Ciri, and we didn't get:
a) side quest: "Avenge Rarity" : Find Yennefer and make her pay. The bitch killed and stuffed my beloved unicorn.
b) massive witcher contract: "Papa's little girl": Find Emhyr's daughter.
Nonono, to all those who tell me that this isn't necessary and I am wrong, but it's not surprising that most of them don't like Yennefer either... Those won and it looks CDPR is supporting them, so... sigh.
I actually love what they made out of Geralt and Yennefer, I think they did almost everything right about their relationship.
I am registered here since January 2013, do you know when I finished The Lady of the Lake? January 2013. Since then I am a huge fan of this trio and I hoped since then that they don't fuck it up in Witcher3, even though it wasn't even announced back then and now? It's perfect, the only thing I really have to criticize is this here.
and I thought after all they did afterwards for Witcher 3 and for the fans, they could grant us this little wish, my last wish.
---------- Updated at 01:35 PM ----------
the rest of my critique is mostly about other factors like how every character tells you that Yennefer is bad for you, but that doesn't make the relationship they showed any less good, on the contrary. It feels like "No, damn you Dijsktra, who are you to tell me what is love? Your ex-lover is trying to kill you and now you are giving me love advices? Hahaha, fuck you."
Felt good to act like Geralt does in the books, to not give a single fuck about what others say about Yennefer, all that matters is what Geralt and Yennefer do, I just wished I could say the same about Ciri and Yennefer ._.
and I might not be the biggest fanboy about this trio, but I am pretty sure I am quite close to it and that I polarize with a lot of my posts, I am aware of that, maybe even too much for my own good.
So if someone like me, so obsessed with this trio, says that he loved it nonetheless and I don't just mean the happy sex scenes, but also when Geralt and Yennefer were argueing. It just felt like straight from the books. Especially scenes like just lying in the bed looking at each other were the ones that nailed it. It should show how much I appreciate the work they had put into it.
They showed us a real relationship and not just another romance or another lover here, but a real relationship, a continuation of the books and that's exactly why I don't understand why they did almost everything right except this here, especially if they did everything right about Geralt and Ciri, too.
That their view on this relationship is so damn identical to my own, that they portrayed this relationship so damn well, that they delivered exactly what I wished for, but not this. I can't get this into my head to be honest, it's beyond me.
And when I read that Ciri calls Emhyr Papa, it made everything juse worse. Every single cell in my body cringed at this thought, I wanted to slap Ciri for that.
But don't worry, that deserves an extra thread...I guarantee you that...
And when I read that Ciri calls Emhyr Papa, it made everything juse worse. Every single cell in my body cringed at this thought, I wanted to slap Ciri for that.
But don't worry, that deserves an extra thread...I guarantee you that...
The problem is he is very the reason why she had to live this shitty life up until now. Getting almost killed like 50 times, almost being raped, treated like a baby machine and so on. He is the one responsible for this.
He made her life a nightmare, literally. She had nightmares because of what happened to her because of that.
and not only that, in the books
he even wanted to marry and impregnate her, his own daughter ffs.
The problem is he is very the reason why she had to live this shitty life up until now. Getting almost killed like 50 times, almost being raped, treated like a baby machine and so on. He is the one responsible for this.
He made her life a nightmare, literally. She had nightmares because of what happened to her because of that.
Well if I were Ciri, I wouldn't be upset about that stuff. It's all unintended consequences, so you can't really fairly lay all that at his feet. What you can lay at his feet directly is that he abandoned you, then invaded your country. Then once he found you, he seriously considered forcing you to marry him (and bear him children ... eww), and perhaps worst of all, he left Geralt and Yen to kill themselves.
‘I know,’ she hissed, ‘what you are up to. What you want to do with me. I’ll tell you now – I will not let you touch me. And if you do … I’ll kill you. Even if tied up. When you sleep, I’ll bite through your throat …’
I actually abhor Yennefer's character, from what I see of her in The Witcher 3. It's a one-sided relationship that is displayed between her and Geralt, one of which she inadvertently shows no trust in Geralt at all (All of the mind reading, for instance?) while likewise showing complete and undeniable faith in his capabilities. Not only as a Witcher, but as a lover. She has him wrapped around her little finger, and she struts her stuff like it's nobodies business. She tells absolutely nobody her agenda, not even Geralt, and even gets moody with him a few times when he asks the truth about things upfront. Tf? That's what you get out of his best love interest in the books or games? This black-as-night robe-wearing control mongering freakazoid? There's also the fact that nobody else in the story even seems to like her, and gee... I wonder why? When your relationship ends multiple times on nearly 5 year intervals, everybody else despises you, you keep secrets from your love interest, mind read him against his pleas, wishes and desires, and use your love interest for only your own affairs whenever and however you want... Well, you're a cunt and I can see why so many hate your existence.
There are only two instances in which I appreciate Yennefer's character, as per depicted in The Witcher 3: The first time is when she is reunited with Ciri at Kaer Morhen, the second time is at the end of Blood and Wine, when you chose her as a love interest before and she shows up at the Vineyard finally ready to settle down and commit whole-heartedly to a relationship, at long last, alongside of Geralt (With the Djinn "Wish" lifted as well.)
These are the only two instances in which I like her character. The remainder of the time she is purely moody. A control freak. Or any other number of emotions. I daresay to sum it up she's a whirlwind of negativity... I hate how she's depicted. Sorceress or not, she's a cunt. Only way I can summarize her character, honestly.
Triss, on the other hand, in 3, got swept under the rug. She genuinely cares for not only Geralt, but Ciri as well. She shows so much love for Geralt that it eats away at her, and what did Triss get for it in the end? Geralt running back to Yennefer, as per the very moment he had free time once he had his memories back. Up. And. Left. Her. Not even on good terms either. Triss knew, yes, it would not last.
Triss shows just as much love for Geralt as Yennefer does. Supports him just as much, if not moreso. Loves Ciri, and is loved by Ciri back moreso than I see Yennefer receives love back. I can't help but wonder... Was Triss really Ciri's adoptive mother? Can't be Yennefer, because Ciri seems so incredibly passive with her.
Anyways, I could continue, but allow me to stop... Honestly, I just wanted to say that Yennefer, I think, is useless as a love interest ._. At least in my eyes. It's incredibly dysfunctional, her and Geralt, let alone the addition of Ciri.
Triss shows just as much love for Geralt as Yennefer does. Supports him just as much, if not moreso. Loves Ciri, and is loved by Ciri back moreso than I see Yennefer receives love back. I can't help but wonder... Was Triss really Ciri's adoptive mother? Can't be Yennefer, because Ciri seems so incredibly passive with her.
