cyberpunk as a literary genre has always been deeply influenced by classic film noir fiction
so personally i'm hoping for some kind of film noir story
so personally i'm hoping for some kind of film noir story
detective / revenge / mystery / romance / saving humanity, preferably with a femme fatale companion. Those are elements I am looking forward in C2077.
i think,the idea of the augmented person fighting against corporations and/or governments is the most probably, but i dn't like it, it's not very original, the idea of the devs "this game is not about savng the city nor the world, but saving yourself" it's just perfect, that's what i want, it has great potential
The question is then, saving yourself from what?
Case had to save himself from toxins in his blood, but is that too literal?
Isn't that more the hook? how he was hooked in to the larger corporate maneuverings of Tessier-Ashpool?
I mean you need that hook. and i would love a neo noir tale like that but can be hard to do in a Video Game.
Usually, in every cyberpunk books I read (Neuromancer, Snow Crash, Little Heroes, Hardwired, Island In The Net, etc...), the story goes like this.
You have your hero (pretty much an anti-hero, like a total loser, a drug addict, or someone totaly "above all that shit, leave me alone"), who live his life as good as he/she can in that crappy setting, it's just... Their everyday life, just like you and me.
Then something happens, in Neuromancer, Case is forced to help Armitage because he puts some deadly poison in his blood, in Snow Crash, Hiro is trapped in a shitstorm between a lot of different corporations, in Hardwired, Cowboy is just a casual Panzerboy who finds himself in the middle of some orbital shenanigans, etc...
Then, they're kind of "forced" to do what they have to do, getting involved in all those corporate stuff, that they don't much want to do, because... dude, it's a pretty big and scary thing to be involved in, with all those people getting killed for crappy reasons all around you.
But you do it anyway because of mainly some survival reasons (and money, etc...).
Then, the story is over, you did what you had to do, but the story isn't over.
Sure, the book ends up there, but it's always with your "hero" keeping his/her life going on, it's not "the bad guys have been defeated, congratulation".
You just solved one problem among a millions.
So, I'd really like the game to be like this, you know.
Every mission should be like a "journey", but it wouldn't be "all you've got", like "one story for the whole game".
But, you start the game, creating your character, and you'd have plenty "journey" to do, sometimes for the cash, sometimes just because you don't have much choices, etc...
Now that would be something Cyberpunk.
That's what I understand by "Not saving the world, but saving yourself".
Things are too big for you to handle, so you'd better just try to do what you have to do and run away as far as you can so the people you screwed-up don't find you.
That wasn't what I implied btw, (and religion doesn't have anything to do with Cyberpunk, it's pretty much the oposite : what you see is what you get).
But, most Cyberpunk movies or media beyond books mostly (reason why I talked about Robocop, Judge Dredd, GITS, etc...) puts you in the "good guy" shoes.
Now, you should be able to be whatever you want, I agree with you, but I want the "Dark side" to be realistic... not "Fantasy-with-attitude"...
Did you ever been in a seedy neighborhood to get some dope?
I mean, that's what I figure a Cyberpunk setting would be like, just add some High Tech in the mix and you got it.
When people have no more hope, live in the crapper etc... You just can't act like "Ned Flanders".
If you show just a lil weakness, they all fall on you and you're done.
Sure you can't be an asshole with everyone, or whatever, it's not as simple as that.
And yes, everything isn't all "dark" either, you won't get shot on sight, but it's a different universe.
I never found those movie or game to be as "realistic" as it should be, when it comes to "high tech / low life"
GTA is the closest to reality when it comes to criminality and low life.
but you won't hang around in the Combat Zone with a big smile and a flower "I'm here for you guys, together we'll make a better world", ala John Lenon, you'll end up beaten up and they'll steal your shoes.
Living in the dirt turns mostly people into animals more than "cool people who want a shinny future".
And yes, I found that the 2 first robocop movie or the Judge Dredd remake showed that pretty well, but I can't see it nowhere in GITS for example.
GITS would be more like the "Corporate center way of life" where everyone is a philosophist because... they can, mostly.
The same with Deus Ex, I didn't found that it showed the "dirt" enought, it never really leaved the "grey" aera to fall in the darkness.
In Cyberpunk, you're supposed to have snuff braindance, all those kind of nasty things that you'll find on the deep web, black market, drugs, guns, prostitution, etc...
Now, I'm not saying "let it be a teenage-angsty game", but more : "If you're up to show up a fucked up world with a lot of social difference between the rich and the poor at leat, let it be as realist as posible".
When I'll stumble in the really poor parts of Night City, I expect to don't feel safe there, because people want to survive, and most of the time, it means:
kicking your ass and steal what you have.
Just like when you go throught a seedy neiborhood, you absolutely don't want to pitch your tent there being all "Hey guys, where is the camp fire?".
Unless you're "known" there, you don't stay, you just go, do your shit and leave, staying on your guard the whole time.
That's what I hope CDPR will show, plus they're their own developper and publisher so.... they basically can do whatever they want at this point.
Doing the "cool" part of Night City, pretty much everyone can do it, put some poser gangs, some neons and shits.
(Yes, all those pictures are from the same city... just different parts...)
But the Combat Zone...
It would have to make Blade Runner look like a "Happy Picnic day", most people don't want you around here, you shouldn't feel safe over there.
It's just people left there and "do what you want, we don't give a fuck", Night City put an highway in the middle and that's it.
You can read Street Meat by Norman Spinrad or Little Heroes, it really show that "black & white" setting as it should be.
You have a bright "city center", and when you go in the "dark".... It's really dark...
It's not some "cliché" thing or whatever, it's just how it is, you can go there by yourself and see it, I know people who lived in those shitholes, and it's not fiction, Police doesn't even go there anymore... (Well... Only to clean the mess when it's too much noisy, but you don't see them much, never patrol there or anything)
You have rape, violence (even murder sometimes...), racket, you can buy a gun for almost nothing, people rely on drug dealing to get money (cause no one want to hire them, knowing they come from there), open street shooting with AK47 with kids getting killed by lost bullets, etc... The list goes on.
Kids doesn't even have school, nobody want to go there and give them a decent education, so it just keep the shit rolling.
Sure a few people are able to get out of this mess, but it's more like 5% than 50%
It's Clockwork Orange in real life, a very violent and brutal environement.
You have the "nice looking corporate center" and all around it, you have burned wall, burned cars, graffitis, strange people wandering around, lots of bums, etc....
"France. Marseille. 2013. Young men, who work for drug dealers, photographed while being interviewed on the 7th floor of a social housing building. The man on the left did the talking while the one in the center, who identified himself as Laglu, kept a watch on all movements nearby. Laglu, aged 22, was arrested a couple of weeks ago and is now in prison after being convicted for a number of illegal activities.
The right side of the wall was once a door to a flat, which was later sealed by the police after an entire family was murdered there by a rival drug gang. In memory of the slain family, young men from the building chiseled their own names and heart shapes on the cement. The word at the bottom of the wall reads ‘Bisous’ – ‘Kisses’ in French."
Source : [X]
I can figure in a cyberpunk setting it would just be even worse.
Much like the shittiest part of third world countries where people are left with nothing and only thinks about survival.
It was very well put on paper in Cyberpunk 2020, most of it was actually what you can expect from some low-life suburbs, I just hope Cyberpunk 2077 will not try to "clean" it in a mainstream way.
You have your hero (pretty much an anti-hero, like a total loser, a drug addict, or someone totaly "above all that shit, leave me alone"), who live his life as good as he/she can in that crappy setting, it's just... Their everyday life, just like you and me.
Then something happens, in Neuromancer, Case is forced to help Armitage because he puts some deadly poison in his blood, in Snow Crash, Hiro is trapped in a shitstorm between a lot of different corporations, in Hardwired, Cowboy is just a casual Panzerboy who finds himself in the middle of some orbital shenanigans, etc...
Then, they're kind of "forced" to do what they have to do, getting involved in all those corporate stuff, that they don't much want to do, because... dude, it's a pretty big and scary thing to be involved in, with all those people getting killed for crappy reasons all around you.
But you do it anyway because of mainly some survival reasons (and money, etc...).
Then, the story is over, you did what you had to do, but the story isn't over.
Sure, the book ends up there, but it's always with your "hero" keeping his/her life going on, it's not "the bad guys have been defeated, congratulation".
You just solved one problem among a millions.
So, I'd really like the game to be like this, you know.
Every mission should be like a "journey", but it wouldn't be "all you've got", like "one story for the whole game".
But, you start the game, creating your character, and you'd have plenty "journey" to do, sometimes for the cash, sometimes just because you don't have much choices, etc...
Now that would be something Cyberpunk.
That's what I understand by "Not saving the world, but saving yourself".
Things are too big for you to handle, so you'd better just try to do what you have to do and run away as far as you can so the people you screwed-up don't find you.
That wasn't what I implied btw, (and religion doesn't have anything to do with Cyberpunk, it's pretty much the oposite : what you see is what you get).
But, most Cyberpunk movies or media beyond books mostly (reason why I talked about Robocop, Judge Dredd, GITS, etc...) puts you in the "good guy" shoes.
Now, you should be able to be whatever you want, I agree with you, but I want the "Dark side" to be realistic... not "Fantasy-with-attitude"...
Did you ever been in a seedy neighborhood to get some dope?
I mean, that's what I figure a Cyberpunk setting would be like, just add some High Tech in the mix and you got it.
When people have no more hope, live in the crapper etc... You just can't act like "Ned Flanders".
If you show just a lil weakness, they all fall on you and you're done.
Sure you can't be an asshole with everyone, or whatever, it's not as simple as that.
And yes, everything isn't all "dark" either, you won't get shot on sight, but it's a different universe.
I never found those movie or game to be as "realistic" as it should be, when it comes to "high tech / low life"
GTA is the closest to reality when it comes to criminality and low life.
but you won't hang around in the Combat Zone with a big smile and a flower "I'm here for you guys, together we'll make a better world", ala John Lenon, you'll end up beaten up and they'll steal your shoes.
Living in the dirt turns mostly people into animals more than "cool people who want a shinny future".
And yes, I found that the 2 first robocop movie or the Judge Dredd remake showed that pretty well, but I can't see it nowhere in GITS for example.
GITS would be more like the "Corporate center way of life" where everyone is a philosophist because... they can, mostly.
The same with Deus Ex, I didn't found that it showed the "dirt" enought, it never really leaved the "grey" aera to fall in the darkness.
In Cyberpunk, you're supposed to have snuff braindance, all those kind of nasty things that you'll find on the deep web, black market, drugs, guns, prostitution, etc...
Now, I'm not saying "let it be a teenage-angsty game", but more : "If you're up to show up a fucked up world with a lot of social difference between the rich and the poor at leat, let it be as realist as posible".
When I'll stumble in the really poor parts of Night City, I expect to don't feel safe there, because people want to survive, and most of the time, it means:
kicking your ass and steal what you have.
Just like when you go throught a seedy neiborhood, you absolutely don't want to pitch your tent there being all "Hey guys, where is the camp fire?".
Unless you're "known" there, you don't stay, you just go, do your shit and leave, staying on your guard the whole time.
That's what I hope CDPR will show, plus they're their own developper and publisher so.... they basically can do whatever they want at this point.
Doing the "cool" part of Night City, pretty much everyone can do it, put some poser gangs, some neons and shits.
(Yes, all those pictures are from the same city... just different parts...)
But the Combat Zone...
It would have to make Blade Runner look like a "Happy Picnic day", most people don't want you around here, you shouldn't feel safe over there.
It's just people left there and "do what you want, we don't give a fuck", Night City put an highway in the middle and that's it.
You can read Street Meat by Norman Spinrad or Little Heroes, it really show that "black & white" setting as it should be.
You have a bright "city center", and when you go in the "dark".... It's really dark...
It's not some "cliché" thing or whatever, it's just how it is, you can go there by yourself and see it, I know people who lived in those shitholes, and it's not fiction, Police doesn't even go there anymore... (Well... Only to clean the mess when it's too much noisy, but you don't see them much, never patrol there or anything)
You have rape, violence (even murder sometimes...), racket, you can buy a gun for almost nothing, people rely on drug dealing to get money (cause no one want to hire them, knowing they come from there), open street shooting with AK47 with kids getting killed by lost bullets, etc... The list goes on.
Kids doesn't even have school, nobody want to go there and give them a decent education, so it just keep the shit rolling.
Sure a few people are able to get out of this mess, but it's more like 5% than 50%
It's Clockwork Orange in real life, a very violent and brutal environement.
You have the "nice looking corporate center" and all around it, you have burned wall, burned cars, graffitis, strange people wandering around, lots of bums, etc....
"France. Marseille. 2013. Young men, who work for drug dealers, photographed while being interviewed on the 7th floor of a social housing building. The man on the left did the talking while the one in the center, who identified himself as Laglu, kept a watch on all movements nearby. Laglu, aged 22, was arrested a couple of weeks ago and is now in prison after being convicted for a number of illegal activities.
The right side of the wall was once a door to a flat, which was later sealed by the police after an entire family was murdered there by a rival drug gang. In memory of the slain family, young men from the building chiseled their own names and heart shapes on the cement. The word at the bottom of the wall reads ‘Bisous’ – ‘Kisses’ in French."
Source : [X]
I can figure in a cyberpunk setting it would just be even worse.
Much like the shittiest part of third world countries where people are left with nothing and only thinks about survival.
It was very well put on paper in Cyberpunk 2020, most of it was actually what you can expect from some low-life suburbs, I just hope Cyberpunk 2077 will not try to "clean" it in a mainstream way.
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It will be interesting to see just how hopeless CDPR wants their Cyberpunk to be. In Witcher while you don't "save the world", you can do your part here and there to improve small areas of the world. Skellige gets a happy ending no matter who rules, but what kind of ending is what you decide. I don't think the world should be completely hopeless, otherwise why even get up out of bed?
However the option to play your character as a completely pessimistic, amoral, ass should definitely be there. As should the option to pull a Geralt and say "not my problem".
However the option to play your character as a completely pessimistic, amoral, ass should definitely be there. As should the option to pull a Geralt and say "not my problem".
Very cool concepts. Hopefully CD Projekt Red will implement them somehow into Cyberpunk 2077.
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In theory this would work perfectly with a fully modable CP2077.
Folks can create adventures you play as part of your characters life. As long as no one decides blowing up the world is the result of a scenario people can play the same character over-an-over.
In theory ...
It will indeed.
I got the impression (from an interview snippet) that it won't be all doom and gloom, that it's a world full of rock'n roll. I'd hope that to mean that the relative "darkness" of the setting is handled such that the hopelessness comes not as self-evident, but more from the players perspective. Being more finetuned and ambiguous rather than heavyhanded and begging for correction (elsewise the player being a mustache twirling asshole). In general, not wholesale - there's always room for more clear cut things.
Now in this part I think we understand each other pretty well. I agree with all you've said.
Well, cyberpunk can be about whatever you want it to be, including religion. You can just use the names (Loa spirits, shintoism, judeocristian mythology, sumerian mythology...) or you can mirror the mythological stories and subtext. You can talk about memetics, which has to do with how ideas and information are transmitted, and that is pertinent to both religion and computer science and communication technologies, even intelligence manipulation, all of which have a lot to do with cyberpunk.
Now I have to give you that most of the time what gets adapted into sci-fi, cyberpunk or fantasy works is just a part of religion, and that part is dogma: chosen ones, saviors, people bigger than life.
What about a story about a completely human (with optional cybernetics) rockerboy with a message (be it a message of peace or other, such as an anti-corporate, anti-globalization, smash-the-state or other), who has a lot of followers, but then he's killed by a coalition formed against him by corporate interests and others... and then that corporation that killed him sells you the corporate approved biopic and postumous album and official merchandise, and everyone learns to love the corporation that the rockerboy was fighting all along. Is that cyberpunk enough for you? And it could be done about anything other than dogma that is religion: every political or memetic aspect of it, religion justifying nationalism, bigotry... or even good things. But always analitically, not dogmatically.
Then you're forgetting about a lot of stories and settings for GITS. It sure gives the impression that it's a story about everyone being a philosopher... but it hardly has to do anything with it being a commodity that everyone living the corporate approved lifestyle gives. Some are philosophers because they are live a bohemian lifestyle (the movie director), some because they are "terrorists" that have been travelling with a photo camera learning about the life in other parts of the world like South East Asia (Kuze, a bit a-la-Che Guevara)... but there are plenty of people that don't have any time or commodity to philosophise, like the refugees (a current topic, and one that is seasoned with a bit of Israel-Palestine undertones).
The same goes with Deus Ex. The drug zyme was a background world-building element, there were lots of homeless people dying of the gray death and providing social comentary about how the elites didn't suffer this illness.
There are lots of philosophical and political ramblings in both, but sometimes they come from the romanticisation of characters that either live on the fringe of society, or are augmented or constantly connected. And ultimately that's what both series and other works considered cyberpunk are good at, and now the idea that cyberpunk is all philosophical has stuck and... what can we do about that? I can't help liking it that way!
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With regards to religion and cyberpunk, they do indeed have a lot of potential for interconnection and overlap. Cyberpunk is high tech low life. The more desperate people become, the more likely they are to turn to religious beliefs for solace. If I'm not mistaken, every locational source book for 2020, (space not withstanding,) includes sections on religion. Look at the neo-pagan movements in 2020!
Now, GITS and Appleseed are both 'post-cyberpunk' and focus more on transhumanism which is pretty much the polar opposite of what the Cyberpunk rpg is intended as. They are more about the greater good and ideals.
Snow Crash, at least for me, walks a fine line between the two. Hiro does do what he does for his own benefit, but to do what's right, to protect people. But he does do plenty that is in his own interest. And uncle Enzo, Mafia Godfather and saviour of the human race. What a guy!
Now, GITS and Appleseed are both 'post-cyberpunk' and focus more on transhumanism which is pretty much the polar opposite of what the Cyberpunk rpg is intended as. They are more about the greater good and ideals.
Snow Crash, at least for me, walks a fine line between the two. Hiro does do what he does for his own benefit, but to do what's right, to protect people. But he does do plenty that is in his own interest. And uncle Enzo, Mafia Godfather and saviour of the human race. What a guy!
Need RedKit for that to happen. W3 didn't end up with one. I'm not a PC player, but it'd be nice if Cyberpunk came with one. Modding tends to extend a games lifespan.
I'm sure I read somewhere that TW3 will be getting a RedKit
I heard they released a mod-kit but they wouldn't release anything else.
That was like in August.
Now that's a real shame. The RedEngine has come a long way since the original Witcher, and it's excellent at what it does. I hope that decision is reversed and a kit will be available for 2077
Yeah but for now, at least I can enjoy some Shadowrun Returns mod stories.
Its really awesome how people can make good stories through a kit provided by the creators.