Dont get me wrong Judy is nice and all but since I started as corpo and switched to nomad during act one bevor even knowing Panam in-game u can tell that the nomad lifepath was a thing for me. On top how Panam handles things, is interested in certain things and has a pretty well written story in my opinion, its not a question for me who to choose.
For me Judy was really good character, but not because she is "hot" or something like that but because she is your best friend, way better friend than Jackie. Yeah that's probably because 6 months skip right after prologue, but still.
I actually really like Jackie, more so having played all 3 life paths.
I also like the fact he's not even remotely implied as a romance, because he is loyal to Misty (ok he's also doomed, but that's less important than his loyalty in this case).
I'd like to see that 6 months fleshed out so that V can develop more without having to grind the map for NCPD/Gang/Gig stuff and V can be more integrated into the world. But also so that the V & Jackie relationship is more complete so that his death is more meaningful.
This is a narrative problem with the game - the prologue + act 1 is more like act 1 and act 2 of the story with Johnny and the Relic being act 3. Fleshing out those 6 months would help restore the narrative balance of the game in a story telling sense. (I understand why the decision was made to not feature the 6 months, but from a story telling perspective it now requires the player to make that time in the Open World map without building relationship with Jackie, which lowers the impact of his death.)
Random post not sure where to put it so just put it in the thread I started but was playing around with photo mode an came up with what I think would be amazing.
I was going to call it trapped at the meeting but ended with Have a seat My Queen. ( as she could have easily sat down to )
I was 100% in Triss Camp in TW3.
In Cyberpunk i'm more split 50/50. Find Judy very appealing in a chill/funny way. I've started to 2nd playthrough to romance her with female character. Foun Panam is a bit more of a hurricane but very appealing too on my male nomad run.
Went for Yen in TW3... I just liked her aesthetic and attitude a bit more than Triss.
As for Panam... she's definitely headstrong, really quick to get angry if she perceives you as fucking up, and definitely holds grudges. That being said she does seem to have a softer side to her for the people she cares about, even if she puts on a facade of a strong exterior (She has more or less gotten pissed at every major character she interacted with in the game, including you). If she was all attitude with no depth... I don't think I would have liked her that much and I don't blame people for disliking her for her temperance. But if you give her a chance she does show that she does care about the people she develops a bond with. You see this example with her feeling betrayed by nash and rogue, people who she initally gives her trust, but breaks it, and she goes after nash.
That being said, my main issue about her as a character is that she does not nor does she get a chance to show much character growth in the story (no her liking you does not count as growth). If it was up to me, I would definitely explore the topic of revenge and retribution throughout her story, as you have a short dialogue during her first mission talking about this. By the way, there was 0 repercussion for her no matter if you decide to hunt nash or not, which I think is a damn missed opportunity. The good (her liking you more for essentially agreeing to doing something VERY stupid for someone you just met) should always come with the bad ( Raffen shivs likely getting pissed about getting wiped, and the consequences that follows).
For more general storyline issues I had with her story arc see:
I was just thinking about the overall questline for Panam and the aldecaldos and I think 3 things are missing that would make the current storyline more complete (at least for me)
1.
mission /missions with mitch or scorpion WITHOUT Panam after helping her out with nash but before downing Kang tao. This would serve to make you be able to get to know their relationship with panam better alongside possibly getting a bit of a retelling of Panams backstory of when she was younger/not yet in night city. This would also make scorpions death more earned and sadder, as atm I personally did not really feel the emotional impact that panam felt for scorpion because... we literally met for 2 mins.
2.
mission/missions AFTER downing kang tao and getting to helman and BEFORE riders on the storm where we encounter panam in night city. I found it weird that we never really saw what panam was up to in night city, In my opinion these missions in night city should make panam really understand the absolute nihilism and degeneracy of night city, making her absolutely understand just how lonely the life of a merc truly is. You already talk about this with her at the bar of the sunset motel, and this would help make her realize how real your words to her there was and also hopefully make her and V have a more shared emotional experience. This would also serve as transitory missions that would make her closeness to V on the riders on the storm mission make more sense as I've always felt that for someone of her personality type she got too close way too fast.
3.
A couple more missions in the like of helping out dear old scooter, shit was a good mission and I really wished there was a couple more just to get to know more of the aldecaldos, because besides mitch panam scorpion and saul you dont really get to know the rest of the aldecaldos very well... maybe something to help out bob... you guys remember Emily? She's not even a named aldecaldo besides that one dialogue...
As for Judy... well it seems to me that in contrast to Panam, Judy is a person who is mostly powerless in helping the people around her, and tries unsuccessfully to find a real family in night city. We see this in the beginning when she fails to convince the mox leader that helping out stray girls is a worthy cause. We see her fail (not really her fault but still) to save Evelyn, and we both ultimately fail in saving clouds. For my ending, she simply escapes the city and tries to get a different perspective in life by travelling.
They are really two different characters with similar goals (help people they care about) but with vastly different abilities in doing so. Personally I find Judy's character arc to be messy, and ends in a very strange way. I have no idea where the story was going or where it should be going, as it seems we never really get a payoff in terms of how she was dealing with taking losses after losses. But at least we do get a bit of a look towards her past, which we didn't get for Panam.
Ultimately neither showed much character growth in the story. However I do like Panams character just a bit more so of course I am biased when I say, that her character to me had a little more depth than Judys. Judys arc also felt ultimately super depressing, as almost everything we did with her ended in complete failure without anything positive happening.
A female can be strong and still like able Panam is neither. Panam is NOT like able. She is a self-centered, argumentative, selfish person. Yelling and screaming does not make you a strong person.
Panam gets into arguments and yells all the time if anyone disagrees with her. Most of the time it's Saul but she does this to Mitch and the other veterans. And she does it to V. Pick some of the options where you disagree with her and watch her reactions.
What is super clear is the endings. Watch what she says in the suicide ending. How can anyone defend that.
Let me ask one simple question for any Panam defender. You have a close friend, family member etc. they are terminal with maybe days left to live and in great pain. Would you curse them to hell if they committed suicide? that is the reaction of a self-centered person that has no empathy.
Panam gets into arguments and yells all the time if anyone disagrees with her. Most of the time it's Saul but she does this to Mitch and the other veterans. And she does it to V. Pick some of the options where you disagree with her and watch her reactions.
And Saul admits Panam was right all along and ends up promoting Panam. The only argument I saw with Mitch was during the final ending where she's trying to prevent Mitch from leaving to rescue the others because she doesn't want him to get hurt. From her POV it's a suicide mission and to be fair that's not a bad perspective all things considered.
Let me ask one simple question for any Panam defender. You have a close friend, family member etc. they are terminal with maybe days left to live and in great pain. Would you curse them to hell if they committed suicide? that is the reaction of a self-centered person that has no empathy.
Panam is someone that's been constantly betrayed or screwed over her entire life which makes it hard for her to open up and trust people. So when the one person she finally opens up to decides to off himself out of the blue it's not surprising that she reacts the way she does.
Panam and Judy may have different reactions but the pain is the same. She probably cried afterwards and regretted it. There are different stages of grief.
A female can be strong and still like able Panam is neither. Panam is NOT like able. She is a self-centered, argumentative, selfish person. Yelling and screaming does not make you a strong person.
I can cherry pick the same arguments and apply it to Judy if you want. They both have flaws but they both have incredible strengths.
I'm not sure if i'd call her selfish either. She did risk her life to help you. Panam lost Scorpion and some clan members when she helped you find Hellman (but she had no grudges against you afterwards). Then she was by your side walking into the gates of hell (Arasaka Tower), in her words "risking the clan to doom".
A female can be strong and still like able Panam is neither. Panam is NOT like able. She is a self-centered, argumentative, selfish person. Yelling and screaming does not make you a strong person.
Panam gets into arguments and yells all the time if anyone disagrees with her. Most of the time it's Saul but she does this to Mitch and the other veterans. And she does it to V. Pick some of the options where you disagree with her and watch her reactions.
What is super clear is the endings. Watch what she says in the suicide ending. How can anyone defend that.
Let me ask one simple question for any Panam defender. You have a close friend, family member etc. they are terminal with maybe days left to live and in great pain. Would you curse them to hell if they committed suicide? that is the reaction of a self-centered person that has no empathy.
Selfish, yet upon hearing you are in trouble, the first thing she does is asking where you are, so she can pick you up and help you? And then risks her and her family's life assaulting two corporations with a tank just to give you a fighting chance?
Or in the epilogue, where pretty much the whole reason they scour the south for their contacts is to help you find a cure?
(Remember, this all is also something she does for you regardless of gender or romance)
No empathy, yet she actually shows major interest in your personal life, and toasts your dead friend who obviously meant a lot to you?
Also not sure if you aware of something called stages of grief.
Kinda sounds to me like you over-focus on her temper alone, which kinda colours your entire perception of her. It's fine if you dont like her, but that doesnt really make her a bad character tho. Yes she's a hothead and can throw a tantrum. But so what? She still has your back in the end when no one else does
I am actually glad she was written the way she is. An actual character with her own agenda, opinions goals and attitude, who WILL disagree with you when the time comes.
I'd take that over a constantly nodding yes-man any day of the week. That is a good character to me.
A female can be strong and still like able Panam is neither. Panam is NOT like able. She is a self-centered, argumentative, selfish person. Yelling and screaming does not make you a strong person.
Panam gets into arguments and yells all the time if anyone disagrees with her. Most of the time it's Saul but she does this to Mitch and the other veterans. And she does it to V. Pick some of the options where you disagree with her and watch her reactions.
What is super clear is the endings. Watch what she says in the suicide ending. How can anyone defend that.
Let me ask one simple question for any Panam defender. You have a close friend, family member etc. they are terminal with maybe days left to live and in great pain. Would you curse them to hell if they committed suicide? that is the reaction of a self-centered person that has no empathy.
just because you feel intimidated or annoyed by loud characters does not mean they are not strong. it just means they have an attitude and temperament that you might not like. dont confuse these two.
I'm camp Judy. And the thing is, romancing Judy and picking Panam's ending route kind of gives me the best ending to Cyberpunk 2077 by a large margin. You've got Panam doing her best in looking out for you and potentially finding someone who can help with V's condition. You've got Judy tagging along fulfilling her desire to leave Night City for good, All the ladies both friends and lovers leading the charge towards a better life together. That's pretty amazing.
And Saul admits Panam was right all along and ends up promoting Panam. The only argument I saw with Mitch was during the final ending where she's trying to prevent Mitch from leaving to rescue the others because she doesn't want him to get hurt. From her POV it's a suicide mission and to be fair that's not a bad perspective all things considered.
Forgot the first time when they refuse to go with her because Saul wants them to fix something? And she still argues with him when it's done and he said he was right.
Panam is someone that's been constantly betrayed or screwed over her entire life which makes it hard for her to open up and trust people. So when the one person she finally opens up to decides to off himself out of the blue it's not surprising that she reacts the way she does.
See you're making an excuse so that means you do agree she acted this way. But it still show she lacks empathy. Bottom line is you don't know how she reacted after. You know what I know that she wished ill on a dead person that was suffering. Sounds like a self-centeered hateful person to me.
And let's assume you are correct in saying it's her past. Who would want to dead with someone that messed up then?
I'm not sure if i'd call her selfish either. She did risk her life to help you. Panam lost Scorpion and some clan members when she helped you find Hellman (but she had no grudges against you afterwards). Then she was by your side walking into the gates of hell (Arasaka Tower), in her words "risking the clan to doom".
So YOU risked your life first and it was part of the deal that she agreed to. And watch her reaction if you don't want to go for revenge which was NOT part of the deal. She yells, screams and berates you. It was HER plan but V is responsible for Scorpion? Huh?
And why would you pick that solution (Nomad/Arasaka)? Do the solo one where no one else dies. She gets at least 4 more people killed, including Saul. And this only happens IF you do plenty more for her and the Nomads. You have to resuce Saul, and get the panzer. BTW Saul is the one to actually say first that the clan will help. Listen to the conversations carefully. Saul offers to help you after you faint at the end of the panzer mission.
Also not sure if you aware of something called stages of grief.
Kinda sounds to me like you over-focus on her temper alone, which kinda colours your entire perception of her. It's fine if you dont like her, but that doesnt really make her a bad character tho. Yes she's a hothead. But so what? She still has your back in the end when no one else does
I'd take that over a constantly nodding yes-man any day of the week. That is a good character to me.
So you will curse a suffering friend to hell if they commit suicide? Everyone goes through the stages but not everyone acts that way. So stages is not an excuse or reason to say what she said.
I also love your strawman argument comparing her to a "constantly nodding yes-man". Why polar opposites? Doesn't anyone exist in the middle? It might make for an interesting character but it would be a terrible relationship unless you love being belittled as soon as she doesn't get her way.
See that the main point. EVERY time someone doesn't jump to her way she goes ballistic. Or point out one scene where you or anyone tells her no and she agrees.
Finally, Saul was the FIRST one to say the clan would help you with your situation. Go replay the part after you pass out during the Queen of the Highway quest. He offers himself and the clan and offers you to stay with the clan.
just because you feel intimidated or annoyed by loud characters does not mean they are not strong. it just means they have an attitude and temperament that you might not like. dont confuse these two.
Reading comprehension please. I said yelling and screaming doesn't make you strong. Or are you trying to claim that everyone that yells, and screams is therefore strong?
And nice to see you can psychoanalyze people, NOT. Instead of actually trying to argue you instead try to lable me as intimidated.
