(Bookreaders) Your opinion about book-Ciri and game-Ciri

[CTPhipps]

If you ignore the fact that she has been like that since she was 11... annoyed whenever she was ordered to do something, angry when people decided about her life without her voice in it, irrate when something didnt go her way. How did she develope? And how is it not being a wild card when you charge off into a battle that is fought to save YOU in which everyone puts their life on the line to save YOU, yet you blissfully ignore it and charge in anyway running the risk of getting killed and basically killing everyone with you?

And tbh. how on earth has psychology of sorceresses and what not anything to do with Ciri dressing like a tramp and even Ves and elven warriors looking like strippers? I'm a guy and I don't need to go into details about the conotation this carries... it's eye candy so the nerds can have a cyber wank.

I mention it on other video game forums. The Witcher occupies a WEIRD place in feminism, Anita Saarkesian's rebuttal aside in that it's a game series which is infamous for the fact you get to bang a lot of chicks and nudity while ALSO having more female characters who talk to each other, serve in intricate roles, and play a vital role in the storyline than any other major A-List game save Dragon Age. Tomb Raider is the biggest female-driven franchise there is and it had three female characters in its last game.

In the ENTIRE game.

Witcher 3?

FOUR major Female characters to Geralt and Dandelion and Zoltan's three.

FIVE counting Priscilla.

How many female characters with speaking roles and adventure plots? At least over forty at last count. Not counting the important role of the Lodge in the story.

It is a MAJORLY female dominated work and all the better for it. It's just that it also panders to the fanboys. Mostly, though, I consider it's attitude to sex and sexuality to be HEALTHY as people should not be happy about impalings versus consensual sex.

 

[lwp]

Furthermore even in 7 years it is more than unlikely that she will have forgotten or compartmentalised or repressed everything that happened to her from when she was 10 or 11 until she was 16/17.

I think she would have actually compartmentalized it pretty well. People grow up a lot faster under extreme situations and some, though not all, learn to cope. Given Ciri's previous Witcher training, and her genetic history in both Emhyr and Pavetta (both very strong willed individuals) she's perfectly equipped to not let these situations destroy her.
She was also called the Lion Cub of Cintra as a young girl, while this was a nod to Calanthe her grandmother, I think it was more because she demonstrated a suborn will at a young age, and less because she was somewhat of a hell raiser.

It was too much and too horrific to repress and it became, in the books, one of her major driving forces in life which she will not have abandoned this easily.

I don't think she abandoned it at all, but she has killed Bonhart, so that part of her life is a closed book so to speak. In fact when sh*t hits the fan, she probably thinks about what she has overcome as motivation to continue the fight. We RP as Geralt so we are never going to see her thoughts on the matter.

This is why I don't like game Ciri because book Ciri at that point in time would either be a nutcase or someone with a will of steel and a self assurance that would crack her rips

These are two extremes and I would disagree that she would be either/or. If anything she is middling between the two.

Also: Is she really that messed up? She is a very powerful being dealing with a survival situation in a dog-eat-dog world... I doubt anyone would have much scruples in such a situation.

Exactly. You can't compare Ciri to a modern world setting. The world she comes from is terrible by our standards, but such occurrences are commonplace to in that time period.

 

[CTPhipps]

Also, bluntly, CIRI IS MESSED UP.

She's SUICIDAL in one out of three endings.

Not exactly good headspace.

 

[warbaby2]

I mention it on other video game forums. The Witcher occupies a WEIRD place in feminism, Anita Saarkesian's rebuttal aside in that it's a game series which is infamous for the fact you get to bang a lot of chicks and full-frontal nudity while ALSO having more female characters who talk to each other, serve in intricate roles, and play a vital role in the storyline than any other major A-List game save Dragon Age. Tomb Raider is the biggest female-driven franchise there is and it had three female characters in its last game.

In the ENTIRE game.

Witcher 3?

FOUR major Female characters to Geralt and Dandelion and Zoltan's three.

FIVE counting Priscilla.

How many female characters with speaking roles and adventure plots? At least over forty at last count. Not counting the important role of the Lodge in the story.

It is a MAJORLY female dominated work and all the better for it. It's just that it also panders to the fanboys. Mostly, though, I consider it's attitude to sex and sexuality to be HEALTHY as people should not be happy about impalings versus consensual sex.

Because modern feminism, besides of being unfit in dealing with reality, is also useless for dealing with anything outside of the simplest gender scenarios... if you are only looking as far as character outfits or the portrayal of sexuality, you won't be able to make sense of anything in this stories.

...and again: Ciri is not messed up, she is unrelatable... that's not the same thing.

 

[CTPhipps]

Because modern feminism besides of being unfit in dealing with reality, is also useless for dealing with anything outside of the simplest gender scenarios... if you are only looking as far as character outfits or the portrayal of sexuality, you won't be able to make sense of anything in this stories.

I have a slightly higher opinion of the subject than superficial things.

I also think you can say, "The outfits in this game are ridiculous" without saying the actual game itself is sexist.

Indeed, I think the Witcher is one of the few games which treats women as actual characters and as important and prelevant as they would be in the real world.

I think we just need more practical outfits.

We can wear the sexy/hot stuff in appropriate settings (or let Ciri take off her towel).

*pause*

What? I admit it. I tried to!

 

[hedop]

You keep saying this, but nobody is arguing that Ciri has forgotten about anything that happened in the books. Why do you keep bringing this up? That makes you think Ciri has forgotten about the past events that happened in the books? That's just silly.

Because there is basically no personal growth from the books on any level. She is still the same ignorant, stubborn and headstrong little kid. Her past experience seem not to have had any impact on her decision making given that she actually trusts Avallach who basically pimped her, forced her to have sex and would have done so for eternity and would have prevented her from ever leaving again. She trusts him to such an extent even though she knows he wants her only for her blood and he spits on all humans that she is visible upset about what he apparently told his elvish lover... any more stupid and she would be Penny from the Big Bang Theory. Like Willowhugger pointed out, even though she has been sexually used and abused and had to use sex for protection herself she still has an extremely unhealthy attitude towards sex. We basically have 13-14 year old Ciri in the body of a fully grown woman and you never, ever, get the feeling that all her past experiences have somehow educated her or given her any kind of experience.

No we don't. In fact we know for a fact that the time on the Isles of Avallach flows differently than it does in the world of the Witcher. So we already know of one factual instance of a different world with time flowing differently than the world of the witcher.




False. She stayed a pretty long time in the world of the An Elle.



You clearly don't understand the theory of relativity and how time is relative for the observer. Theoretically Ciri could spend years in a different world and it would feel to her like she spends years and she will also age years, even if relative to the world of the witcher she's only gone for minutes.

Go watch the movie Interstellar, it goes a perfect job at showing the theory of relativity in effect.



Yennefer is almost a century old yet she still looks the same. Though it does seem that it's a conscious choice of her to halt her physical aging through magic. Ciri might not choose to do so, so I'll grant you that one.

I already said that she could stay somewhere for years and age years yet only minutes had passed by point was: you'd notice it. maybe not physically but years of experience would have matured her psychologically and that would be noticeable. Vica Verce she could spend minutes in a world that for this world are years, age in minutes and come back and in her world 200 years could have passed. She could also go to a planet in which a year for her is a year for them yet in the witcher world it's minutes or centuries or millenia. All possible. The things is, if she would spent any significant amount of HER time anywhere, she would age mentally and physically and people who knew her could tell. That was my point. There is almost no chance of her only visiting worlds in which minutes for her are years for them, she would barely age and the time would more or less stand still at home as well.

Regarding the Aen Elle I was talking about post books time... she actually recounts some of that to Geralt. The her time with the Aen Elle is told in the books. I meant after them when she was hopping around and going to Camelot and the likes.

 

[warbaby2]

I have a slightly higher opinion of the subject than superficial things.

I also think you can say, "The outfits in this game are ridiculous" without saying the actual game itself is sexist.

Indeed, I think the Witcher is one of the few games which treats women as actual characters and as important and prelevant as they would be in the real world.

I think we just need more practical outfits.

We can wear the sexy/hot stuff in appropriate settings (or let Ciri take off her towel).

*pause*

What? I admit it. I tried to!

I already gave my opinion on how ridiculous the sauna scene was...

Aside from the fact that I usually find the notion that a piece of entertainment (or art, for that matter) can be demeaning to any real world women ludicrous, the Witcher series clearly isn't an oh so "evil, sexist game".

I agree that practical clothes make more sense in certain settings (heck, even Phillipa Eilhard did wear "men's cloths" when traveling in the books), but I also understand that the main reason why sorceress (and certain other characters) dress the way they do is: Status. They are free, powerful women, and they show it - starting with their open, free flowing hair (as remarked by Triss in "Blood of Elves") down to their deep neck lines... just as not everything that glitters is gold, not everything that's sexy is sexist.

 

[CTPhipps]

My favorite review was of Eurogamer's review of the sex scenes.

Their biggest complaints about the sex scenes?

Geralt's ratty underwear and the unsatisfied expressions of all the women.

It led them to conclude the Rivian is naff in bed!

---------- Updated at 10:07 PM ----------

Because there is basically no personal growth from the books on any level. She is still the same ignorant, stubborn and headstrong little kid. Her past experience seem not to have had any impact on her decision making given that she actually trusts Avallach who basically pimped her, forced her to have sex and would have done so for eternity and would have prevented her from ever leaving again. She trusts him to such an extent even though she knows he wants her only for her blood and he spits on all humans that she is visible upset about what he apparently told his elvish lover... any more stupid and she would be Penny from the Big Bang Theory. Like Willowhugger pointed out, even though she has been sexually used and abused and had to use sex for protection herself she still has an extremely unhealthy attitude towards sex. We basically have 13-14 year old Ciri in the body of a fully grown woman and you never, ever, get the feeling that all her past experiences have somehow educated her or given her any kind of experience.

Honestly, I'm not sure Avallach didn't develop genuine honest parternal feelings toward Ciri during his time with her. I suspect he started traveling with her with the explicit intention of turning her into a gun and aiming it at the White Frost (versus the failed plan to evacuate their world Eredin was obsessed with) but I actually think he IS genuinely trustworthy by the time you go to the Tower at the end.

So I think Avallach gets character development.

I think in Ciri's case, the very fact we're debating this does point to a three-dimensional rounded character. It's just we're sometimes frustrated with where she goes and how she's portrayed. The Ciri we see in the games is a lot more lighthearted than the "Arya Stark levels of Shell-Shocked" Ciri of the books. However, we don't know how much of that is a front or paper-thin given we know she's suicidal and barely hanging on by a thread at the time Geralt finally catches up with her.

Yes, she's immature for her age (albeit not VERY immature given all the 20-23 year olds I knew were morons of some sort or another) but the entire plot of the story is about her embracing adulthood as well as the responsibility this entails--either as a Witcher or as Empress of Nilfgaard.

 

[warbaby2]

My favorite review was of Eurogamer's review of the sex scenes.

Their biggest complaints about the sex scenes?

Geralt's ratty underwear and the unsatisfied expressions of all the women.

It led them to conclude the Rivian is naff in bed!

Yea... the sex scenes... 16 hours of mo-cap and we get ABC dry humping... *sigh*

I still think Ciri should have had an opportunity to get it on too... talk about equality.

 

[hedop]

I already gave my opinion on how ridiculous the sauna scene was...

Aside from the fact that I usually find the notion that a piece of entertainment (or art, for that matter) can be demeaning to any real world women ludicrous, the Witcher series clearly isn't an oh so "evil, sexist game".

I agree that practical clothes make more sense in certain settings (heck, even Phillipa Eilhard did wear "men's cloths" when traveling in the books), but I also understand that the main reason why sorceress (and certain other characters) dress the way they do is: Status. They are free, powerful women, and they show it - starting with their open, free flowing hair (as remarked by Triss in "Blood of Elves") down to their deep neck lines... just as not everything that glitters is gold, not everything that's sexy is sexist.

Thats my point though. Don't mind them dressing as they do... but not when it simply isn't appropriate... because that simply means it's a fanservice and eyecandy and I think that is bullocks. I loved Triss's dress for the ball it was absolutely magnificent but does it serve a purpose when she is running around the slums and sewers being a fugitive to display cleavage that deep?

Yen wears trousers. Ciri on the other hand no armor at all, no protection against weather and even showing her bra. Ves is a soldier and one of the best fighters in Temeria... does it serve a purpose that she has her shirt unbuttoned down to her naval even when going into battle?

 

[CTPhipps]

Yea... the sex scenes... 16 hours of mo-cap and we get ABC dry humping... *sigh*

I still think Ciri should have had an opportunity to get it on too... talk about equality.

100% agreed.

Certainly, male gamers would have enjoyed that as well as female!

Equal opportunity fanservice.

 

[hedop]

Yea... the sex scenes... 16 hours of mo-cap and we get ABC dry humping... *sigh*

I still think Ciri should have had an opportunity to get it on too... talk about equality.

You wanna talk about equality? How about showing Geralt's butt or his genitalia? That would be equality after 30 years of tits.

@willow: agreed on many parts apart from Avallach... in my book he is still a wanker and honestly... would you trust somebody even if that person starts to develope feelings for you after they pimped you out when you were barely having your period and would have forced you to have some more sex for the rest of your life?

 

[CTPhipps]

Thats my point though. Don't mind them dressing as they do... but not when it simply isn't appropriate... because that simply means it's a fanservice and eyecandy and I think that is bullocks. I loved Triss's dress for the ball it was absolutely magnificent but does it serve a purpose when she is running around the slums and sewers being a fugitive to display cleavage that deep?

Yen wears trousers. Ciri on the other hand no armor at all, no protection against weather and even showing her bra. Ves is a soldier and one of the best fighters in Temeria... does it serve a purpose that she has her shirt unbuttoned down to her naval even when going into battle?

I confess, it's doubly ludicrous when the game LAMPSHADES IT!

"Put some clothes on, Ves!"
"You're not my father Roche!"

Either the developers are horny or they assume all the fanboys are. Either way, it's just silly like the fact they have Bryce Dallas Howard's character look more and more ragged the longer the movie goes on yet she's still wearing high heels while running in Jurassic World.

About the only thing I can think of is that Ciri actually can't afford armor and isn't intending to get in any fights when all hell breaks loose.

Of course, I also think Ciri's health regeneration is an actual Elder Blood power and not just the game showing off.

---------- Updated at 10:14 PM ----------

You wanna talk about equality? How about showing Geralt's butt or his genitalia? That would be equality after 30 years of tits.

@willow : agreed on many parts apart from Avallach... in my book he is still a wanker and honestly... would you trust somebody even if that person starts to develope feelings for you after they pimped you out when you were barely having your period and would have forced you to have some more sex for the rest of your life?

Ciri SHOULDN'T but Stockholm Syndrome develops in RL because people NEED to trust and believe in something even when it's stupid to do so.

 

[warbaby2]

Thats my point though. Don't mind them dressing as they do... but not when it simply isn't appropriate... because that simply means it's a fanservice and eyecandy and I think that is bullocks. I loved Triss's dress for the ball it was absolutely magnificent but does it serve a purpose when she is running around the slums and sewers being a fugitive to display cleavage that deep?

Yen wears trousers. Ciri on the other hand no armor at all, no protection against weather and even showing her bra. Ves is a soldier and one of the best fighters in Temeria... does it serve a purpose that she has her shirt unbuttoned down to her naval even when going into battle?

It actually does all make sense when you think about it:
- Ves is the easiest - Roche even remarks on it - she shows defiance... not very wise, but commendable.
- Triss and Yen's standard outfits are just fine for sorceresses, and they even cover themselfes with a hood at times.
- Ciri is a nimble fencer, not a warrior... she relies on dodging and tumbling, not on armor to protect herself, so she keeps her attire as nonrestrictive as possible.

 

[lwp]

Because there is basically no personal growth from the books on any level. She is still the same ignorant, stubborn and headstrong little kid. Her past experience seem not to have had any impact on her decision making given that she actually trusts Avallach who basically pimped her, forced her to have sex and would have done so for eternity and would have prevented her from ever leaving again. She trusts him to such an extent even though she knows he wants her only for her blood and he spits on all humans that she is visible upset about what he apparently told his elvish lover... any more stupid and she would be Penny from the Big Bang Theory.

I think there is a ton of personal growth. She went from a girl who couldn't keep her emotions in check at all, who played with her prey (ice skating scene) to a more rational, though no less messed up, woman who can now cope properly with what has happened to her instead of lashing out all the time. As for trusting Avallac'h, Eredin is after her, trying to finish what Auberon started and he offers to help her. I don't think she trusts him 'absolutely' as she claims to Geralt. She realizes Avallac'h is a necessary evil, but one that is essential if she wants to defeat the White Frost eventually. She's mature enough to not put any added pressure on Geralt by making him worry by Avallac'h any more than he already was. She can take care of herself.

agreed on many parts apart from Avallach... in my book he is still a wanker and honestly... would you trust somebody even if that person starts to develope feelings for you after they pimped you out

I don't think anything in the game suggests that Avallac'h has even remotely developed any feelings for Ciri.

 

[hedop]

It actually does all make sense when you think about it:
- Ves is the easiest - Roche even remarks on it - she shows defiance... not very wise, but commendable.
- Triss and Yen's standard outfits are just fine for sorceresses, and they even cover themselfes with a hood at times.
- Ciri is a nimble fencer, not a warrior... she relies on dodging and tumbling, not on armor to protect herself, so she keeps her attire as nonrestrictive as possible.

And none of the Witchers are nimble? Given that Geralt and even Letho rely mainly on their quickness and superior agility? I'm not talking about Ciri running around in plate armor. I'm talking about something as simple as a leather vest, or a leather jacket and NO HIGHHEELS!!! If she is a fencer... why on earth would she fuck up her balance and footing by wearing highheels? Even if you argue that she might have mastered them... a heel could always break off. A fighter would never take that chance... never! Little Ciri in the cutscene is even wearing a leather vest so it's inconceivable that big Ciri should run around with basically a bikini. Furthermore given that she cant be sure where exactly she ends up and given that she visits different climates... why on earth would she not wear something that protects her from rain, wind and snow and cold?

Talking about Ves. I don't agree. It's simply stupid. They are outnumbered and a band of guerillas and she is taking stupid chances and tbh for all her bravado Ves was never known to take daft chances in the Witcher 2. It's not defiance it's plain stupidity. You don't show defiance by fighting naked and again... from the point of protection against the elements it makes no sense at all.

---------- Updated at 10:25 PM ----------

I think there is a ton of personal growth. She went from a girl who couldn't keep her emotions in check at all, who played with her prey (ice skating scene) to a more rational, though no less messed up, woman who can now cope properly with what has happened to her instead of lashing out all the time. As for trusting Avallac'h, Eredin is after her, trying to finish what Auberon started and he offers to help her. I don't think she trusts him 'absolutely' as she claims to Geralt. She realizes Avallac'h is a necessary evil, but one that is essential if she wants to defeat the White Frost eventually. She's mature enough to not put any added pressure on Geralt by making him worry by Avallac'h any more than he already was. She can take care of herself.


I don't think anything in the game suggests that Avallac'h has even remotely developed any feelings for Ciri.

The feelings thing was actually Willows point not mine.

 

[CTPhipps]

I think Ciri's, unlike Ves, is justified because I'm not sure that's not her ONLY SUIT OF CLOTHES.

---------- Updated at 10:26 PM ----------

I don't think anything in the game suggests that Avallac'h has even remotely developed any feelings for Ciri.

The fact there IS no sudden reveal of Avallac'h's treachery and that he's been on Team Ciri the entire time.

 

[hedop]

I think Ciri's, unlike Ves, is justified because I'm not sure that's not her ONLY SUIT OF CLOTHES.

For crying out loud... stop justifying it... she can visit any world she likes and she spend a substantial amount of time in Novigrad and with the Baron... ample opportunity to visit armorers or simply buy a fucking leather jacket!

 

[CTPhipps]

For crying out loud... stop justifying it... she can visit any world she likes and she spend a substantial amount of time in Novigrad and with the Baron... ample opportunity to visit armorers or simply buy a fucking leather jacket!

I'm not trying to justify it.

Just being funny.

If nothing else, she could have picked up something after she was in Kaer Morhen.

Video Games, eh.

 

[warbaby2]

And none of the Witchers are nimble? Given that Geralt and even Letho rely mainly on their quickness and superior agility? I'm not talking about Ciri running around in plate armor. I'm talking about something as simple as a leather vest, or a leather jacket and NO HIGHHEELS!!! If she is a fencer... why on earth would she fuck up her balance and footing by wearing highheels? Even if you argue that she might have mastered them... a heel could always break off. A fighter would never take that chance... never! Little Ciri in the cutscene is even wearing a leather vest so it's inconceivable that big Ciri should run around with basically a bikini. Furthermore given that she cant be sure where exactly she ends up and given that she visits different climates... why on earth would she not wear something that protects her from rain, wind and snow and cold?.

Male Renaissance fencers did wear heels too... as for the rest: I dunno? Maybe she likes the outfit? Maybe she's merely used to it? There are many possibilities... forced fan-service is not the first that comes to mind for me, to be honest.

Talking about Ves. I don't agree. It's simply stupid. They are outnumbered and a band of guerillas and she is taking stupid chances and tbh for all her bravado Ves was never known to take daft chances in the Witcher 2. It's not defiance it's plain stupidity. You don't show defiance by fighting naked and again... from the point of protection against the elements it makes no sense at all.

So Ves is a stupid idealist... she's fighting a lost cause and her commander is holding her back by being overly protective. Considering her background, I can imagine it.

I think, in the end, it all comes down to what I expect to see...