Analysis: With Witcher 3 CDPR no longer treat the players like adults [SPOILERS]

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So I wouldn't necessarily say that the depiction of Eredin and the Hunt as pure evil guys makes the game less adult oriented. It just reduced the quality of the storytelling in general, no matter for which audience. ;)
I was talking about op's Radovid analysis. Radovid is sick bastard, but he has reasons for doing the stuff he does. Twisted reasons from my moral pov? even from a healthy rational pov? yes, maybe, but he isn't doing it "for the sake of being evil" or EEEVIL!
Of course they both suck. That IS the concept of choosing the lesser evil... :coffee:
No. The concept of lesser evil is option A sucks, but option B sucks LESS. Is not the case with that quest IMO.
 
Your analysis is pretty much spot-on.

It was rarely difficult choosing what to do in the game, as opposed to CDPR's previous two games...because the choices were clear and stereotypical.


On top of that, the rejection of overtly sexual depictions...well we can say "it's a game, it doesn't need it".

Reality to most is that it added to the past games in a meaningful way.

This becomes problematic for many TW1/2 fans because...

We see it as being inconsistent with former Witcher games.

We see it as being inconsistent with the maturity of the story as it moves, breaking it.

My first thought when something like this happens is 'I wonder who bullied CDPR into censoring sexual content?', rather than 'What is happening in the story?'.


Unless a complete about-face is taken, I don't see them 'correcting' this, as it appears to be a planned series of decisions.
 
as many people said before, TW3 is one of the best games ever on its own, but not good as a sequel.

even though #1,2,3 are not that bad to me, I hate the inconsistency and some dumb decisions such as Dijkstra in Reason of State.
but #4? fantastic writing and straight to the point! #4 is what annoyed me most, it's easy to forget I'm playing a 17+ game while playing it.
 
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as many people said before, TW3 is one of the best games ever on its own, but not good as a sequel.

even though #1,2,3 are not that bad to me, I hate the inconsistency and some dumb decisions such as Dijkstra in Reason of State.
but #4? fantastic writing and straight to the point! #4 is what annoyed me most, it's easy to forget I'm playing a 17+ game while playing it.

Because the storyline is meant to end in Witcher 3. Even with the current storyline, people are unhappy about the epilogue. We'll see if that changes in months to come :)
 
Agreed. The Witcher 3 is like the day CDPR died as CDPR, and was reborn as an incredibly high-quality new Bioware. Which is... not all that bad cause Bioware have really lost their touch these last few years, but very sad because CDPR were bringing something brand new into video games before they gave it up for Witcher 3. It's almost like The Witcher 3 was the amazing sequel (=evolved spiritual successor) that Dragon Age: Origins deserved but never got, and now we have to pray that some new company -- from India maybe? who knows -- makes us the amazing sequel that The Witcher 2 deserved but never got.

Dragon Age: Origins, in my opinion, was the last time that a vanilla -- I mean, made for all tastes -- story-heavy epic fantasy WRPG felt like a big leap in vanilla story-heavy epic fantasy WRPGs. I'm struck with total awe for Witcher 3 whenever I consider how it does most everything that Dragon Age 3 -- the official planned big leap from Dragon Age: Origins -- does, but integrates it all into a perfect harmony instead of the (fun and addictive, sure) cacophony of Dragon Age 3.


The Witcher 2, though -- that was no vanilla story-heavy epic fantasy WRPG. It was a game that almost single-mindedly pushed story-branching/world-state reactivity, all encompassing moral ambiguity, and character/plot complexity as far as 2011 video games technology and a $10 million can push and then some. These qualities that made The Witcher 2 unique are present in The Witcher 3 to some extent, but it's a real step back in every single one of these respects. The Witcher 3 is like a shadow of a sequel to The Wticher 2 living inside a Dragon Age 3 fit for for the gods.
 
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I don't see the comparison between DA and TW. One of the core appeals of DA to me was always the tactical group combat (which was ruined first in DA2 and then finally, in DAI) which is totally different to the skill based action combat in TW.

But I guess you maybe just mean the narrative. Well, CDPR definitely gets closer to Bioware in terms of juvenile, Disney-style storytelling and themes. It's always like having some promising topics and high concepts but without all the "dirt" that should accompany it...
 
Somebody mentioned few pages ago a Bloody Baron quest as an example of the lesser evil choice. In fact, it is not. It has a clear happy end. Bloody Baron is depicted having remorse and regret for his drinking and abusing his wife, he's kind to Ciri. He repents and at the end rides into the sunset with his wife. Most people cry at this moment... You can argue that his wife has become crazy. Well, yes, but alternative is that both of them are dead, which is strictly worse given the circumstances. And his daughter going with witch hunters is rather neutral. If she's not a fanatic herself she'll see that what they are doing is not quite nice and will be able to quit. The witch hunters are not a mafia, which you can leave only in the coffin.

The Bloody Baron would have been a lesser evil type on quest in the mood of the witcher universe if choices were:
a) Return the wife to baron. He keeps drinking and beating her forever after, but Geralt gets information;
b) Leave the wife with the crones, she gets crazy, baron stays, Geralt doesn't get information about Ciri;
c) the wife dies, baron provides Geralt the information and hangs himself.

Make your pick.
 
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Somebody mentioned few pages ago a Bloody Baron quest as an example of the lesser evil choice. In fact, it is not. It has a clear happy end. Bloody Baron is depicted having remorse and regret for his drinking and abusing his wife, he's kind to Ciri. He repents and at the end rides into the sunset with his wife. Most people cry at this moment... You can argue that his wife has become crazy. Well, yes, but alternative is that both of them are dead, which is strictly worse given the circumstances. And his daughter going with witch hunters is rather neutral. If she's not a fanatic herself she'll see that what they are doing is not quite nice and will be able to quit. The witch hunters are not a mafia, which you can leave only in the coffin.

The Bloody Baron would have been a lesser evil type on quest in the mood of the witcher universe if choices were:
a) Return the wife to baron. He keeps drinking and beating her forever after, but Geralt gets information;
b) Leave the wife with the crones, she gets crazy, baron stays, Geralt doesn't get information about Ciri;
c) the wife dies, baron provides Geralt the information and hangs himself.

Make your pick.
For a choice situation analysis you cannot look at the consequences. You have to look at the information you have while you make the choice. That's the core of the analysis of a choice situation.

Geralt doesn't know exactly what happens if he decides for option A, B or C. He (an you as his puppet master) can only make a good guess based on the information you have at that time (which doesn't inlcude the actual consequences of course!).

So if one choice lead to an arguably "better" ending than another it doesn't automatically constitute a bad "the lesser evil" choice situation. Quite the contrary, it's highly likely that - especially in the long run - one of the options turn out better than the other.

But well, I can't count the times anymore how often people came up with this total misconception of choice. Basically the whole criticism of Mass Effect choice situations is based on the very same misconception that choices are constituted by their consequences which is just bollocks. A choice is exclusively constituted by what you know in that very moment and that's all that you can use to evaluate it's execution and impact.

If you want to criticize consequences, then you can look at consequences. But when you want to criticize choices, you have have to look at the actual choices.
 
I love it when people's nostalgia make them post blatently stupid stuff. Let's work through the list.
1. The most annoying immature moment of the Witcher 3 for me is the concept of EEEVIL.
Are we seriously pretending this is something new? For every Letho there was a Loredo, a Dethmold, a common bandit. Henselt was blatantly evil, the only grey morality came from whether now was the best time to make face justice. Not every single character in the Witcher franchise existed in the grey morality area. However to say Witcher 3 contains nothing on the level of Letho is blatantly false. The Bloody Baron is a far superior character to even Letho. Yennefer exists firmly in the morally grey area. Are we pretending these people no longer exist?

2. Second most annoying shift in the witcher 3 in the direction away from maturity is we no longer choosing the lesser evil, most choices are divided by clearly better vs clearly worse.
This is also false. There are many choices throughout the game that are not black and white. Do you save or kill the Tree Spirit? Do you lift the curse of Morvarg? Do you let the werewolf kill the sister of his dead wife? What seems simple to you may be hard for another. I never had a problem letting Roche kill Henselt, yet some people had a tough time with that choice. The sidequests are chock full of interesting three-dimensional characters, in addition to the main quests.

3. Third most annoying downgrade is primitive politics.
Geralt hates politics. He repeats this line throughout the second game. He chooses again and again to stay away from them when he can. This game was intended to be more personal from the very beginning. That said I was not a fan with how Radovid was handled. I agree that it was poorly done, as was Djkistra going full retard when all he had to do was wait for Geralt to leave. That portion of the game was weak and I agree that it's obvious they tried to force a tough choice but failed at it. One thing about Djkistra taking power: If you follow the assassination questline you see 1. He still has contacts in the Redanian army and 2. A lot of soldiers hate Radovid. Djkistra is in partial control of Novigrad and bringing it over to the North, along with it's wealth and harbor is what finally causes Emhyr to give up since hes facing dissent at home.

4. All of a sudden, CDPR became prudish and hesitant of naked body
This is so utterly wrong and stupid its unbelievable. First thing you see after the intro is Geralt sitting in a bath and then you see Yen's ass on display. Geralt and Yen get fully nude on the unicorn and at Kaer Morhan. You can see Keira's tits. What are you smoking, how the hell did you miss all that? You get two sex scenes with Yen as opposed to Triss' one in Witcher 2, yet its Witcher 3 that's taking a step back? Could it be perhaps they cut the stuff you mentioned because maybe they ran out of time? No it's obvious CDPR is taking your boobies away from you because they hate fun. Never mind that you can see Ciri's bra poking through, Triss wears clothes even more revealing than Witcher 2, when you visit Djkistra for the first time there are tons of prostitutes walking around with their breasts on display.or how Ciri spends time in a sauna seeing the breasts of women some of which are much older. Let's just ignore all that.
 
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@Scholdarr.452
I agree with you that we should evaluate the choice given at particular time, but consequences are also very important. Speaking of the choices, in the Bloody Baron quest there are no choice at all. Choosing to lift the curse versus to kill the botchling is not really a choice because if you fail to lift the curse you can always proceed to the killing option. Some of the consequences appear due to the choices made in the Ladies of the Wood quest, which makes Bloody Baron quest line less flexible in general.
 
These are some fair and interesting counter-points, but I think you're distorting the original point 1. The claim wasn't that Witcher 1 & 2 didn't have extreme malicious assholes, but that the (non)human antagonists weren't typically both monstrous-looking and movies-serial-killery or disney-villainy in personality. In Witcher 3 most (non)human antagonists are either 'evil laughter' types or have-a-private-torture-dungeon types, and look vaguely like Oruk Hai or like Goblins. We did have Dethmold in Witcher II, but Dethmold was supposed to be specifically *creepy* and *uncomfortable* and *weird*, and be a unique element in the game's landscape in this regard. (Maybe Withcer 1 is different, I never had a chance to play more than a few hours of Witcher 1.)
 
Are we seriously pretending this is something new? For every Letho there was a Loredo, a Dethmold, a common bandit. Henselt was blatantly evil, the only grey morality came from whether now was the best time to make face justice. Not every single character in the Witcher franchise existed in the grey morality area. However to say Witcher 3 contains nothing on the level of Letho is blatantly false. The Bloody Baron is a far superior character to even Letho. Yennefer exists firmly in the morally grey area. Are we pretending these people no longer exist?
The OP made it clear that the problem is with one-dimensionality of the characters whom you perceive as evil. The whole evil concept is moralistic simplification of human behavior. The evil concept is primarily made for people who are not mature enough to make their own conclusions, for example children. Mature people won't say somebody's evil, they say that his person is selfish, greedy, arrogant, cruel, and so on. This is why the witcher 3 is the game for teens who still think in evil/good categories.
Is Loredo evil? Majority would argue that yes, but you can talk to him, argue with him, understand his motivations and reasoning. Even Loredo doesn't murder people just for fun, he has formal restraints, to start a pogrom of non-humans he needs casus belli to feel morally justified in his own eyes. This is very well written negative character.
Why is Henselt evil? Because he hangs Roach's friends conspirators who wanted to murder him? That's totally justified. He even spared Ves. Yes, it was in exchange for having sex with her and it's not something that makes him a paragon of virtue but, if you think about it, he could have still hang her after raping but he didn't do that. Is Henselt evil because he invaded a neighboring country when opportunity was present? Well, look in the history, only kings from fairy tales don't do that. Henselt was a very believable king with very clear logic in all his actions. You can justifiably not be a fan of him but Henselt is a very well written character.
Is Dethmold evil? It's a matter of perception, I don't see him particularly evil. He's not a nice guy, he's in the grey area.
Mentioning common bandits is not even valid because they don't have even remotely significant role in the game. Eredin is not a common bandit to give him less lines to speak than to common bandits.
Bloody Baron is well written character but he's a positive character, he repents all his sins (like in a fairy tale), and he's not the antagonist. Is he far superior because he's a "good guy"? I think they are both well written and claiming superiority of one over another is comparing apples and oranges.

Did you put Yennefer as a grey because she's good looking and she's Geralt's romantic interest? You put Dethmold in the "evil" bin, after all. Imagine that Yen doesn't know Geralt at all and is looking for her daughter, whom you have no idea about. Also, imagine that she, by some reason, decided not to alter herself magically and looks like 100 years old hunchback (this would have been her natural look without magical tricks). In this case, the game plot will look like this: in the process of the game you learn that some unknown ugly witch stole the mask from Ermion and by using it created a storm that threatened to destroy the islands, then she killed the sacred grove when performing some murky necromantic rituals. Upon confronting her she would say that she doesn't care about what she did because she's looking for her daughter whatever it takes.
I'm pretty sure you'll brand her evil without a second thought.

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2. Second most annoying shift in the witcher 3 in the direction away from maturity is we no longer choosing the lesser evil, most choices are divided by clearly better vs clearly worse.
This is also false. There are many choices throughout the game that are not black and white. Do you save or kill the Tree Spirit? Do you lift the curse of Morvarg? Do you let the werewolf kill the sister of his dead wife? What seems simple to you may be hard for another. I never had a problem letting Roche kill Henselt, yet some people had a tough time with that choice. The sidequests are chock full of interesting three-dimensional characters, in addition to the main quests.
Why do you refer to the Ladies of the Woods example when the OP specifically states that it was a good part of the game?

Lifting a curse of Morvarg is not a lesser evil choice because there's no downside to lifting the curse. You lift the curse and kill the human Morvarg. You're unable to kill him if you won't lift the curse and Morvarg will be killing people if you won't get rid of him. It's a very good, paragon of virtue type of choice no matter how you look at it.

The werewolf example was also given in the OP as a good choice, why are you using it as a point against OP? I cannot argument here because I left werewolf be when the woman asked me to, so I have no idea who kill whom if you choose otherwise.

OP stated that the game has lesser evil type of decisions but too few of them. Most of the game has clear cut good vs bad choices.

Henselt choice was in TW2, not in TW3. It was a very good dilemma because it's a maturity check, which tests if the player can see beyond what's laying on the surface, to see if they can be responsible and see consequences. What would killing Henselt accomplish? Personal revenge, yes. Henselt is not a good guy for sure, but if you kill him you become responsible for so many other negative consequences like creating the succession crisis (aka civil war with many deaths of innocents in the process) and helping assassins and their not quite virtuous plans (you don't know them yet but you should take them into account if you're responsible person). This is why I never let Roche kill Henselt even though I don't like him not a bit as a person. The choice was quite hard the first time I ran into it. And this is why TW2 has more mature narrative than TW3.
 
@Scholdarr.452
I agree with you that we should evaluate the choice given at particular time, but consequences are also very important. Speaking of the choices, in the Bloody Baron quest there are no choice at all. Choosing to lift the curse versus to kill the botchling is not really a choice because if you fail to lift the curse you can always proceed to the killing option. Some of the consequences appear due to the choices made in the Ladies of the Wood quest, which makes Bloody Baron quest line less flexible in general.
The Bloody Baron questline is much bigger than just this situation. For example, there is a clear choice when you have to decide whether you free the evil spirit in the tree or not.
 
Geralt hates politics. He repeats this line throughout the second game. He chooses again and again to stay away from them when he can. This game was intended to be more personal from the very beginning. That said I was not a fan with how Radovid was handled. I agree that it was poorly done, as was Djkistra going full retard when all he had to do was wait for Geralt to leave. That portion of the game was weak and I agree that it's obvious they tried to force a tough choice but failed at it. One thing about Djkistra taking power: If you follow the assassination questline you see 1. He still has contacts in the Redanian army and 2. A lot of soldiers hate Radovid. Djkistra is in partial control of Novigrad and bringing it over to the North, along with it's wealth and harbor is what finally causes Emhyr to give up since hes facing dissent at home.

Strange argument. If Geralt, for instance, hates physiscs it doesn't mean that laws of physics shouldn't be implemented in a game. It's totally possible to make believable political scenarios without getting too deep into them.

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The Bloody Baron questline is much bigger than just this situation. For example, there is a clear choice when you have to decide whether you free the evil spirit in the tree or not.
That's not a Bloody Baron (BB) quest line, it's s Ladies of the Woods quest line. When I made that choice I haven't even met BB yet. And it was already a point about this decision as a good example how it should be, but its related to BB the way you cannot have even an slightest idea that they are related in certain cases.
 
That's not a Bloody Baron (BB) quest line, it's s Ladies of the Woods quest line. When I made that choice I haven't even met BB yet. And it was already a point about this decision as a good example how it should be, but its related to BB the way you cannot have even an slightest idea that they are related in certain cases.

Funny...not to get too far into the weeds here, but I always saw the two as inextricably linked. After all, how you handle the tree spirit has a direct impact on the Bloody Baron quest line. Then again, I was doing them sort of concurrently.
 
/Mostly agree with OP.


Some things that annoyed me:

* The dumbing down of the politics
* W2 choices being ignored
* Radovid (the Lub-dub) being turned into a lunatic (when him being sane would have been far more interesting IMO)

Also, where is the Order of the Flaming Rose? Oh right, we got witch hunters now. Why? What services does the witch hunters serve that the Order couldn't? Would have been nice to see Siegfried.

Another thing that i thought was weird (in my world state at least) is that in W2, Roche says he will serve Radovid and protect Anaïs. In Witcher 3 he abandons both Radovid and Anaïs to fight on the front line and we get no mention of her at all in the game. Would Roche really abandon Foltest child and the heir* to the Temerian throne? (*If Adda is dead)
 
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Funny...not to get too far into the weeds here, but I always saw the two as inextricably linked.
Try finishing Ladies of the Woods quest first without ever going to BB. Pretend that you're playing for the first time. You'll be making decisions without Geralt knowing that BB has anything to do with Gran.
 
Debate on the religious beliefs of our world has no place in this forum, nor do personal attacks. Two posts just got deleted.
 
4. All of a sudden, CDPR became prudish and hesitant of naked body
This is so utterly wrong and stupid its unbelievable. First thing you see after the intro is Geralt sitting in a bath and then you see Yen's ass on display. Geralt and Yen get fully nude on the unicorn and at Kaer Morhan. You can see Keira's tits. What are you smoking, how the hell did you miss all that? You get two sex scenes with Yen as opposed to Triss' one in Witcher 2, yet its Witcher 3 that's taking a step back? Could it be perhaps they cut the stuff you mentioned because maybe they ran out of time? No it's obvious CDPR is taking your boobies away from you because they hate fun. Never mind that you can see Ciri's bra poking through, Triss wears clothes even more revealing than Witcher 2, when you visit Djkistra for the first time there are tons of prostitutes walking around with their breasts on display.or how Ciri spends time in a sauna seeing the breasts of women some of which are much older. Let's just ignore all that.

Cool story. I must have missed all of the full frontal nudity and imagined the modern era panties. No one argued that there are boobs.
 
That is a lot of OP rant... but let's see...

1. Radovid looks exactly as he did in W2 (albeit with more polygons, enhanced shading and a fuller beard). His shaky mental stability/paranoia as well as his resentment and viciousness towards witches was well established in TW2. Var Emreis is not ugly by any means, unless one's standard of beauty is a pretty boy, and not inherently evil, either. His behavior is on par with any such ruler. Dijkstra is an ugly character, but even he is not "eeevil". Phillipa isn't exactly a goody-two-shoes, yet gorgeous (or at least she was before her eyes were gauged out of her skull). Ciri is beautiful, but what Witcher female protagonist isn't? And she isn't exactly "good'. I see her as a stubborn moody brat, who is put in the situation of the reluctant hero.

Actually, only looking at these characters from a "good or evil" standpoint shows a lack understanding of the complexity of the characters.

2. Not so. First, who told anyone that one needed to be choosing the lesser evil? There is also the option of not intervening at all... Second, there are many choices in game with unexpected not-so-good results. Third, there are decisions where one could decide to lessen the blow of the news or be brutally honest, which has absolutely nothing to do with good or evil at all. Plus you cannot make every single decision a gray-area decision.

3. You may not have noticed this in real life, but politics end when war starts. It is only logical that the politics aspect will be heightened before war breaks out (TW2) and that politics take a back seat once war breaks out (TW3). Even so, past the very obvious, there are a couple characters who you can engage and discuss run-of-the-mill politics, intrigue, etc...

4. And what "I'm not treated like an adult" rant is complete without the "needed moar sex/nudity" complaints and the cries of giving in to the "PC crowd"? LOL. Personally, I'd loved to see a return of the so-called "sex cards", even the less revealing ones. I appreciated the art. Could've done with less prostitutes too.. seems like 3 out of 4 women in Novigrad are strumpets.

All of that said, I do feel TW2 was more of a "Witcher experience" than TW3, but that is a discussion for another thread...
 
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