Analysis: With Witcher 3 CDPR no longer treat the players like adults [SPOILERS]

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No, I have arguments about it but there is little sense arguing with you about it since for one you have your own opinion which you will not change whatever I write back and two I don't really enjoy writing pointless walls of text.

Again no argument brought forward, there's virtually no way Eredin can be considered even a remotely "good" antagonist as he barely appears in the game and has very little to say. He's virtually a non-character.

Corypheus for all his flaws is a character at least.

EDIT: If I was talking about TW1 Eredin, well THAT version would bury Corypheus alive with how awesome he is.

I never said W3 story is better than W1... of course it isn't... the sole fact that Wild Hunt can somehow control White Frost is mind boggling to me but it's still more gripping story than Fallout 3 or DA:I for me.

It has more high notes I'll grant you that, but looking back at it there's nothing really interesting in TW3's main story, which is what killed it for me. What makes it "seem" good is that superb voice acting, never thought female Hawke would do so well as Ciri, the score of the game and the cinematic direction.

DA:I and Fallout 3 are considerably less cinematic and pack less of a punch, but despite that they are far more complex and nuanced as stories, featuring bigger moral dilemmas ( was there ANY moral dilemma with the choices presented in the main story outside of the Bloody Baron? ) and more interesting characters.

One of the biggest failures, and I consider this far more important then lack of logic in the plot and with the war, is that there's literally no moral dilemmas for the player in the main plot outside of Act 1 Velen with the Baron, which incidentally makes that entire portion the best part of the game. All the choices in the main story after that, despite having consequences, mean little.

Fallout 3 did present a very interesting moral dilemma with the president in the main story. DA:I had a constant argument about religion and yours views on it and your role as Inquisitor in the world.

Witcher 1 was all about the identity of Geralt and his relationship with Alvin and what moral stances you took, Witcher 2...well I don't need to explain this I think.
 
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@Damariel, we're discussing Eredin in TW3, not Eredin in the witcher universe, right? Because it's completely different Eredins. Eredin in TW3 barely appears and have nothing to say except "muahaha" type of phrases.
 
well said OP well said. Witcher 1 was fantastic, Witcher 2 was amazing. Witcher 3 was good. It was the pg version of 1 & 2.
 
Having thoroughly enjoyed Wild Hunt, I was prepared to come to blows with the OP, but I have to admit that he has some valid points. Kudos for a well thought out post.

I would completely support an enhanced edition in the manner of the Witcher 2. Less copy and pasted romantic encounters and arbitrary censorship please.
 
I can't disagree with this thread. The story was dumbed down quite a bit. The game is still an amazing game, but if I were to just sit down and decide to only play the main story of a game and not do the side stuff, I'd take TW2 and TW1 over TW3 every time.
 
I don't know whether the problem is that they wanted this game to be less "adult oriented".

I think many of the points here (at least 1-3, 4 might be a different thing) are just a consequence to the decision to go "full open world" and to shift the focus of this game from the narrative and the typcial choice&consequence to more systemic and mechanical features of open world.

In TW2 the core of the game was the narrative and the choice&cconsequence. The "levels" or "hubs" were made with this agenda in mind. You can clearly see that Flotsam and Vergen and the other levels of TW2 were made with a certain narrative design in mind. The whole game was made with a certain narrative "flow" in mind, hence the act structure and the distinctive levels. That way you can make "proper" consequences with respective ambigious, hard and meaningful choices because you have full control over the narrative and the scope of the consequences. You can also quite heavily build on the main narrative.

"Full open world" changes that approach completely. First, you have a ton of extra work to do that doesn't enhance or improve any narrative strength of the series. Even the opposite is true. You naturally spread thin. You lose focus because you have to fill the world with content. At the same time you have to limit choices and consequences since you don't have the luxury of the act structure and restricted, "staged" levels anymore. People can go back and forth anytime. They can start any quest anytime. It's a vicious circle. To bigger the world gets, the less choice and consequence is possible. There is a reason why Bethesda games are so bad in offering meaning choice and consequence and complex topics in quests. It's not because they want to cater only to kids or because they are just mindless apes who couldn't do any better. It's because open world and meaningful choice&consequence with complex topics are basically two very different concepts that don't go together well. You can't have them both to the "maximum" so to say.

So why are most of the villains just evil? Well, I'm convinced that this is the case because CDPR lacked the time and rescources to flesh out their motivations. Making an evil character is realitively easy compared to making a believable bad character who has real motivations that are not just evil. The point is that real motivations need time to explain and if you want to make it properly you need a lot of time (and setpieces) to explain that. Even for a skilled and very talented writer it's hard to come up with multiple complex villains if the possibilities to transport the motivations are quite restricted from a purely technical and resource perspective. To explore the character of someone like Whoreson you'd need a lot more cutscenes, setpieces, dialogues. And still you have a whole world to fill with content, a huge world. Same is true to politics and every complex and "deep" topic. There is a limitation to that if you are restricted by resources and game design. And of course the very same is true for every choice and consequence in the game. Freedom in the way it's is understood in video games and open world games is a kind of "gamey" freedom. It's an illusion of freedom because it's impossible to create a virtual world that fully reflects all the players decisions in a meaningful and believable way. RPGs with a traditional linear or hub-based/level-based narrative and game design (like TW2) offered a good compromise between freedom and believability. Narrative and gameplay options are quite limited in video games. RPGs tend to improve upon that by giving player more options, more choices, more freedom. The point is that all of that is a game of trade-offs. You can't just offer more freedom (like the freedom to explore an open world) without being forced to make compromises. Giving the player three different choices rather than two already makes the whole rest of the game a whole lot more complex and hugely increase the workload - at least if you want to have meaningful "freedom" in your game. And that's the problem. The more complex you make your topics and decisions in a game that offers a vast open world the harder it gets to bring all the possible consequences together in a fitting and meaningful way without blowing everything off and especially without blowing the budget off and literally going on to develop the game for years. So in the end, open world kind of forces the devs to tone down the narrative in its complexity, in its sophistication and its scope, even more so than the traditional approach already does. It's the natural fight against "complexity and scope creep".

I think what many people miss is that TW2 and TW3 follow two really different approaches. TW2 was a traditional story-driven RPG that worked pretty much worked like an interactive movie/novel. TW3 on the other hand was a Bethesda-style open world driven RPG that worked as a exploration/combat/medieval life simulator. It doesn't have the same narrative focus anymore I'm afraid. So naturally, all narrative themes are actually "dumbed down" or tuned down. There are some distinctive quests in which the "old" narrative focus still shines but the big picture shows a narrative design (which contains choice&consequence, storytelling, dialogues, character design and quest design) that has to work well with the world (and not the other way round like it was in TW2).

Short: in TW3 the open world itself is the star. Narrative content only serves to fill the world with live. But it's a secondary aspect. In TW2 the narrative was the star. The game world served as a vessel to transport the topics and atmosphere of the narrative design. Levels were especially created to serve the narrative design in the best possible way. You can see it like that: for every additional small village you can explore in TW3 the complexity and scope of the overall narrative had to be tuned down by some percentage points...
 
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Having an open world seemed to have done more bad than good for the story, but for whats its worth I found it to be my favorite game in the series. For one it had good gameplay, something the previous games lacked.

But in all honesty having choice at all in these types of games harms the story as a whole. Even Planescape: Torment
led to the same ending no matter what you chose. The Nameless one still ended up in Baator or whatever.
Having multiple choices, if anything seems to hamper the vision of the writer- writing stories in general is a form of communication, the writer is trying to say something. I remember when "The Last of Us" came out, some people
wanted the choice to sacrifice Ellie. That honestly sounds so stupid from a story perspective and is not at all in line with Joel's character.

Having said that, I think choices in RPGs is what helps define them- I am certainly a fan of the wealth of RPGs with world changing choices like The Witcher or Dragon Age. As long as they make sense, of course,. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't come to RPGs for the "Citizen Cane" of gaming.

I know that whole ramble was a bit Off topic, but I felt like I needed to get my opinion of my chest. In regards to the topic of CDPR not treating us like adults...well, I agree to an extent. The politics I agree on. As for the concept of evil... well, while I agree Eredin should have been more fleshed out, being evil doens't make a villain bad. The Joker, Sauron and Tom Buchanan are all evil appear/are described as evil from their inception, yet they all hail from some of the greatest artistic endeavors of all time.
 
The Joker, Sauron and Tom Buchanan are all evil appear/are described as evil from their inception, yet they all hail from some of the greatest artistic endeavors of all time.
I have no idea who is Tom Buchanan but both Lord of the Rings saga and Batman comics have teenagers as a main target group. Therefore, that didn't contradict my point in any way, actually it even supports it. There's nothing wrong in liking Lord of the Rings or Batman but, at the same time, no one is taking Batman or Lord of the Rings characters seriously, right?
 
I don't know whether the problem is that they wanted this game to be less "adult oriented".

I think many of the points here (at least 1-3, 4 might be a different thing) are just a consequence to the decision to go "full open world" and to shift the focus of this game from the narrative and the typcial choice&consequence to more systemic and mechanical features of open world.

In TW2 the core of the game was the narrative and the choice&cconsequence. The "levels" or "hubs" were made with this agenda in mind. You can clearly see that Flotsam and Vergen and the other levels of TW2 were made with a certain narrative design in mind. The whole game was made with a certain narrative "flow" in mind, hence the act structure and the distinctive levels. That way you can make "proper" consequences with respective ambigious, hard and meaningful choices because you have full control over the narrative and the scope of the consequences. You can also quite heavily build on the main narrative.

"Full open world" changes that approach completely. First, you have a ton of extra work to do that doesn't enhance or improve any narrative strength of the series. Even the opposite is true. You naturally spread thin. You lose focus because you have to fill the world with content. At the same time you have to limit choices and consequences since you don't have the luxury of the act structure and restricted, "staged" levels anymore. People can go back and forth anytime. They can start any quest anytime. It's a vicious circle. To bigger the world gets, the less choice and consequence is possible. There is a reason why Bethesda games are so bad in offering meaning choice and consequence and complex topics in quests. It's not because they want to cater only to kids or because they are just mindless apes who couldn't do any better. It's because open world and meaningful choice&consequence with complex topics are basically two very different concepts that don't go together well. You can't have them both to the "maximum" so to say.

So why are most of the villains just evil? Well, I'm convinced that this is the case because CDPR lacked the time and rescources to flesh out their motivations. Making an evil character is realitively easy compared to making a believable bad character who has real motivations that are not just evil. The point is that real motivations need time to explain and if you want to make it properly you need a lot of time (and setpieces) to explain that. Even for a skilled and very talented writer it's hard to come up with multiple complex villains if the possibilities to transport the motivations are quite restricted from a purely technical and resource perspective. To explore the character of someone like Whoreson you'd need a lot more cutscenes, setpieces, dialogues. And still you have a whole world to fill with content, a huge world. Same is true to politics and every complex and "deep" topic. There is a limitation to that if you are restricted by resources and game design. And of course the very same is true for every choice and consequence in the game. Freedom in the way it's is understood in video games and open world games is a kind of "gamey" freedom. It's an illusion of freedom because it's impossible to create a virtual world that fully reflects all the players decisions in a meaningful and believable way. RPGs with a traditional linear or hub-based/level-based narrative and game design (like TW2) offered a good compromise between freedom and believability. Narrative and gameplay options are quite limited in video games. RPGs tend to improve upon that by giving player more options, more choices, more freedom. The point is that all of that is a game of trade-offs. You can't just offer more freedom (like the freedom to explore an open world) without being forced to make compromises. Giving the player three different choices rather than two already makes the whole rest of the game a whole lot more complex and hugely increase the workload - at least if you want to have meaningful "freedom" in your game. And that's the problem. The more complex you make your topics and decisions in a game that offers a vast open world the harder it gets to bring all the possible consequences together in a fitting and meaningful way without blowing everything off and especially without blowing the budget off and literally going on to develop the game for years. So in the end, open world kind of forces the devs to tone down the narrative in its complexity, in its sophistication and its scope, even more so than the traditional approach already does. It's the natural fight against "complexity and scope creep".

I think what many people miss is that TW2 and TW3 follow two really different approaches. TW2 was a traditional story-driven RPG that worked pretty much worked like an interactive movie/novel. TW3 on the other hand was a Bethesda-style open world driven RPG that worked as a exploration/combat/medieval life simulator. It doesn't have the same narrative focus anymore I'm afraid. So naturally, all narrative themes are actually "dumbed down" or tuned down. There are some distinctive quests in which the "old" narrative focus still shines but the big picture shows a narrative design (which contains choice&consequence, storytelling, dialogues, character design and quest design) that has to work well with the world (and not the other way round like it was in TW2).

Short: in TW3 the open world itself is the star. Narrative content only serves to fill the world with live. But it's a secondary aspect. In TW2 the narrative was the star. The game world served as a vessel to transport the topics and atmosphere of the narrative design. Levels were especially created to serve the narrative design in the best possible way. You can see it like that: for every additional small village you can explore in TW3 the complexity and scope of the overall narrative had to be tuned down by some percentage points...

I agree with everything you've explained in detail, but I think it only applies to the first part of the game, up to Kaer Morhen battle.

Whereas the first part focuses solely on open world and exploration, while the main story is getting started, at some point the main story takes over and drives to the end.

If you think about the Isle of Mists, Kaer Morhen battle, Radovid's assassination, Imlerith battle, Oxenfurt prison, other dimensions, Avalach's lab and the main battle location, they are all new, unlocked locations, specially tailored for the narrative flow. Also, even though players still have the option to go explore and finish side quests, if they're all already done, a player is able to just go through the main story to the end.

You could say the second part, or the last third of Witcher 3 is very similar structure like Witcher 2, with an option to explore.

Another observation, the first part of the game seems very efficient and tight, as far as the story, characters and open world are concerned. It's pretty obvious CDPR had enough time to work on that and get it to near perfection, minus mostly technical issues and bugs.

The second part, or the last third, feels rushed on more than one occasion, sometimes it's a minor thing easily forgotten, but sometimes it's jarring, like the lack of Triss, but also Yen content, lack of Saskia and Iorveth for 50% of Witcher 2 players, illogical and rushed end of Djikstra, Radovid never fully presented, lack of Emhyr, lack of Sorceresses screen time despite spending so much time to get them, and most of all evidently rushed Eredin fight and the White Frost but really endings as well, without any explanation or follow up.

I think most of people here would agree they don't need to do anything with the first part of the game, as long as second part is enhanced with more content. Witcher 3 can be both open world and narrative champion, and we want to have our cake and eat it too dammit
 
The White Orchard storyline about what happened with the settling around the well was actually a good example on how narrative can be broken up for a open world game. You could miss some of hte explanations if you did not fulfill some of the quests (I didn't need the hunter for example) but the content is still there and slowly you can piece together what happened and hwo the woman wound up haunting the well. I would have liked to see more narrative deisgn like that.
 
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@Damariel, we're discussing Eredin in TW3, not Eredin in the witcher universe, right? Because it's completely different Eredins. Eredin in TW3 barely appears and have nothing to say except "muahaha" type of phrases.

Tom Buchanan is the main antagonist in Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby".

And what's wrong with Lord of the Rings or Batman? Lord of the Rings might be the only fantasy series WORTH taking seriously, the only other series I can think of coming close are Stephen King's "The Dark Tower" and the first three ASOIAF books.

As for Batman, ever read the Killing Joke? Delving into the twisted mind of the Joker and his foil/similarity to Batman is far more mature than anything I have come across in the Witcher universe. Heck, I don't particularly even like comics but I cannot deny that some of Alan Moore's work transcends a lot of prose I have read.
 
What does that mean "taking seriously"?

From the why OP said how no ones takes Batman or LotR seriously, I assume he means from a perspective of maturity and analysis. As in they are simple "good vs. evil" stories that are simply made for enjoyment and hold no complexity or literary merit.
 
From the why OP said how no ones takes Batman or LotR seriously, I assume he means from a perspective of maturity and analysis. As in they are simple "good vs. evil" stories that are simply made for enjoyment and hold no complexity or literary merit.

Well, I don't think that they are simple "good vs evil" stories. But it's a fact that the concept of "evil" follows certain tropes in these stories on different levels. Tropes like "evil = ugly" (Batman) or "evil = doing evil things for the sake of being evil" (LOTR). In LOTR the very concept of evil is in fact problematic Sauron is more or less just a conception of evil itself with his army being a force of evil zombies without any feelings or own motivations. That's imo indeed problematic because it doesn't add much believability to the character. Sauron serves more as a "natural force" the heroes have to overcome. The problem is that evil is an abstract concept that is in itself a big simplification of real motivations and challenges. It's also hard to grasp and therefore naturally hard to get by, different than e.g. being a force of "chaos" (Moorcock) or being a force of human weaknesses (pretty much every challenge in Homer's Ilias). That doesn't mean that LOTR as no literary merit. The storyteling strengths of LOTR lays on the "light side", on the how the "quest" and the fellowship and its relations is described. But the opposite force isn't nearly on the same level of quality in terms of literary quality if you ask me. Batman on the other hand is quite different to that. While it has some of the usual evil tropes, the very nature of evil in Batman is usually well explained in real motivations by real people, like pain, greed, pride, hatred and so on. The appearance of villains in Batman are tropes themselves but the nature of their motivations is not. That makes the villains in Batman indeed pretty interesting and "mature" (at least in some works of the best authors).
 
Pretty much the whole central theme of the Lord of the Rings is that power corrupts, and the result of that is evil. Everyone can be tempted.

I don't really think that's a 'big simplification' or immature take on it, personally.
 
Pretty much the whole central theme of the Lord of the Rings is that power corrupts, and the result of that is evil. Everyone can be tempted.

I don't really think that's a 'big simplification' or immature take on it, personally.
The result of that isn't evil. That's the simplificaton.

As I've said the "good" side is well explored in LOTR. The "bad" side is not. It's basically either you stay on the light side or you're "evil". The "power corrupts" concept is indeed a central topic but it stays underdeveloped because Tolkien had no really good idea how that corruption really looks like and what it means. For him that's just "evil" with all its tropes and that's the problem. It's one of the real big flaws of LOTR while the rest of the work is critically acclaimed and correctly so.
 
Hey! Nice post you made here.
I agree with #4. Atleast that problem is something that draws attention a lot, especially if you played The Witcher 2 and there is something to compare with.
Hope CDPR will notice this thread.
 
Another point that could be added are the "riddles" I wouldn't call them riddles at all but the quest description says they are meant to be riddles so I guess that was CDP's intention.
Witcher 2 had some pretty tough ones like gargoyle or secrets of loc muinne quest. The ghost, who questions you about the past was also not that easy if you didn't read the books.
The Witcher 3 "riddles" are just insulting. It's like they were designed in a way that absolutely nobody has to think about them longer than 10 seconds, without solving them.
 
Another point that could be added are the "riddles" I wouldn't call them riddles at all but the quest description says they are meant to be riddles so I guess that was CDP's intention.
Witcher 2 had some pretty tough ones like gargoly or secrets of loc muinne quest. The ghost, who questions you about the past was also not that easy if you didn't read the books.
The Witcher 3 "riddles" are just insulting. It's like they were designed in a way that absolutely nobody has to think about them longer than 10 seconds.

TW2 had great riddles and such. The nilfgaardian ghost one was great because you had to pay attention to what people told you about the war in order to get them right. Also I think the quest with Cynthia (another character missing from TW3) in Act III also had a bunch of riddles that you had to solve to move forward in the quest. Of course the was the gargoyle quest and the ones that allowed you to meet the operator as well. Act III actually had a lot of riddle type stuff. That stuff is neat, there wasn't much of that in TW3.
 
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