It's all in my OP post, and the convo between Geralt and Emhyr there.
For a short version: Emhyr's father was overthrown and killed while Emhyr was cursed to become a monster for most of the day besides after midnight until dawn. Few people knew he was cursed and he was presumed dead by the usurper. The curse made him into a deformed fury but with his intellect intact.
In truth Emhyr survived and was hidden away by a very loyal supporter while he sought to free himself from the curse. He discovered one but it required him to win the love of Pavetta. He posed as a minor noble and was able to win Pavette'a heart and hand in marriage, which was required for the curse to be broken, with Geralt's help. Geralt asked for their first born child as a reward, provided it was a boy.
After marrying Pavetta he discovered the truth about the prophecy from Vilgefortz and planned a way to return to Nilfgaard without letting everyone know that Emhyr was Duny, because being a mosnter, a freak, marrying a foreign born, would all be heavily frowned upon in Nilfgaard and Emhyr was to lead a revolution, a revolution gaining traction with the help of Emhyr's loyal supporter.
So he planned to fake Dunny's death with Vilgefortz's help while taking Ciri and Pavetta with him while on a boat back to Cintra from Skellige ( Skellige and Cintra had very good relations at the time ). Pavetta ruined this plan by suspecting something affot, she died in an accident while Emhyr barely survived.
The prophecy is that Ciri's child would rule the whole world and save it from the White Frost. To Emhyr it seemed crucial that said child become the ruler of the Empire as soon as possible. There's either the idea that he should marry Ciri in order to make that happen since then he could pacify Cintra, save the world and give Nilfgaard a true blood Emperor, that would be accepted...grudgingly.
Then there's the option of not marrying Ciri. Which as I pointed out would cause a whole lot of issues since in order to have her child to become heir and be accepted by the nobility as such it MUST be of a Nilfgaardian lineage. Nilfgaard may not have discrimination against non-humans on a normal societal level, but it comes to the ruling class they are just as elitist as the north is.
So Emhyr would have to reveal he is Ciri's father, which means revealing he was a monster and that he married a foreign born woman years before he became Emperor. If key members of the nobility are already plotting against him then the fact of him being a monster becoming public knowledge would lead to open rebellion against him and no Nilfgaardian would easily accept the grandson of a monster on the throne and it would be a REALLY hard sell to any noble from Nilfgaard to marry Ciri in order to give her legitimacy. Voorhis seems up to the task, or so the game suggests since he's a loyalist. Either way she would still be in an arranged marriage.
Are there any benefits whatsoever to Emhyr not marrying Ciri from a political level and keeping his past as Duny a secret? I see none. At least none in the scenario where he wants to save the world from the White Frost by placing Ciri's son on the throne of the Empire.
Believe me, though, the books are better than I explain them.
---------- Updated at 10:28 PM ----------
I hate to ask, but where did it say the child had to be a boy? Geralt would assume he'd only take the child if it was a boy but destiny seems to have other ideas since he didn't specify that.
I was under the impression Vilgefortz directed him to Pavetta rather than the other way around.
Emhyr married Pavetta to create the Promised Child because Vigelfortz believed it was referring to Nilfgaard's lineage joining with that of Lara Dorren.
It's why Emhyr knows a very obscure Elven Prophecy.
---------- Updated at 10:28 PM ----------
I hate to ask, but where did it say the child had to be a boy? Geralt would assume he'd only take the child if it was a boy but destiny seems to have other ideas since he didn't specify that.
I was under the impression Vilgefortz directed him to Pavetta rather than the other way around.
Emhyr married Pavetta to create the Promised Child because Vigelfortz believed it was referring to Nilfgaard's lineage joining with that of Lara Dorren.
It's why Emhyr knows a very obscure Elven Prophecy.
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A shame, as they are a really good read with interesting politics on the same level as The Witcher 2 (or at least close to it).
I agree with KnightofPhoenix, the whole "I must marry my own daughter" plot makes no bloody sense unless that is the part of the prophecy that only Emhyr knows (as he said in the transcript in the OP). I am beginning to suspect though that it was part of the books turning everything into awful (the world, not the books themselves being awful) Then again, I am not a big fan of the books and that might colour my judgement.
I'd have prefered if Ciri being Emhyr's daughter were still a secret in the games, with him and nobody else really spelling out just why he wants her found. Of course I'd also like all the leaders (Radovid, Emhyr, Eredin) to make more sense and just DO something. The only time we actually see Emhyr do anything is when he orders the troop movement of the Third Army (which results in a victory I assume from Geralt having no trouble crossing near the site of that battle) and when he for some bizarre reason tried to invade Skellige.
If I had been in his shoes I'd have taken Letho south, given him the school of Viper he wanted and kept that potential weapon in my arsenal. If Letho would see me as his patron he would like be a nice asset sometime in the future. And even if not, he is out of the way and training witchers, who seem to have their uses.
I'd have prefered if Ciri being Emhyr's daughter were still a secret in the games, with him and nobody else really spelling out just why he wants her found. Of course I'd also like all the leaders (Radovid, Emhyr, Eredin) to make more sense and just DO something. The only time we actually see Emhyr do anything is when he orders the troop movement of the Third Army (which results in a victory I assume from Geralt having no trouble crossing near the site of that battle) and when he for some bizarre reason tried to invade Skellige.
If I had been in his shoes I'd have taken Letho south, given him the school of Viper he wanted and kept that potential weapon in my arsenal. If Letho would see me as his patron he would like be a nice asset sometime in the future. And even if not, he is out of the way and training witchers, who seem to have their uses.
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Emhyr marrying his own daughter is, basically, Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's Father.
It is a SHOCKING REVELATION.
It's one of those moment's that's supposed to cause the audience to go.
It's just everyone knows it due to The Witcher 3 when they're reading the books.
For the rest of the majority of the book, we just know Emhyr is trying to track down Ciri and marry her for reasons which are largely mysterious. We assume it's because he wants to solidify his claim on Cintra but there's hints here and there that there's more to it than that.
When I read the books way before I played the games my reaction was WHHHHHHAT? yes. Not the good kind of WHHHAAAT though. More like the "Are you really actually serious now?", followed by more thinking on the issue and then going back to just being confused. It just felt like such a cheap thing to pull. I got over the nonsensical nature of the whole premise after a while, but that trauma was brought right back with Witcher 3.
Come to think of it, I just noticed something. When you first talk to Voorhis on your way out of the audience he asks you what the emperor wanted, wagering that it is a normal Witcher contract but later he seems to have figured it out. Later however he says "It is obvious he seeks his daughter". Wonder how he learned about that.
That's why I like characters like Voorhis, they have no baggage from the books, they can just be who they need to be for the games.
Come to think of it, I just noticed something. When you first talk to Voorhis on your way out of the audience he asks you what the emperor wanted, wagering that it is a normal Witcher contract but later he seems to have figured it out. Later however he says "It is obvious he seeks his daughter". Wonder how he learned about that.
That's why I like characters like Voorhis, they have no baggage from the books, they can just be who they need to be for the games.
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As for Emhyr's reasons for wanting to marry his daughter, I'd like to clarify that there's no reason which doesn't make Emhyr not look horrible because he IS horrible. Part of the book's take on things were that Emhyr and every other king in the North was objectively horrible and things got a little GRIMDARK toward the ends--almost to a ridiculous level.
Emhyr and Vilgefortz are both OBJECTIVELY TERRIBLE PEOPLE. They're charismatic, intelligent, and horrifying in equal measures because they do things which are inexcusable yet don't quite seem to understand why people find these offensive.
They're not MALEVOLENT people like, say, Leo Bonhart but both individuals don't really have LIMITS to what they will do to accomplish their goals. It's why Emhyr and Vilgefortz are CONFUSED by Geralt since both men like Geralt a great deal and don't understand why he's being such an asshole to them. Both really wish Geralt would just hand over Ciri so he could become their personal servant and be rewarded handsomely. They respect his competence, professionalism, and ruthlessness without realizing he loathes their morality (or lack thereof).
It's why I can't really support Empress Ciri even if I don't have anything really against Nilfgaard beyond the slavery issue (and we don't know what the circumstances of that are since there have been variations on it across history).
I think the diagnosis that both Emhyr and Vilgefortz are psychopaths is a good one but they're not HOLLYWOOD psychopaths but real-life ones in that they just don't quite get the social cues or moral cues other people get which tell them when something is unforgivably wrong. The choice to marry his own daughter is because the Prophecy has a line which could refer to Emhyr's lineage joining with Pavettas' and creating the Chosen One. Emhyr really doesn't need to marry Ciri because he's married Pavetta but he wants to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that the Chosen One is under his control (Ciri's son) and it's not enough that Ciri is his blood, he has to raise the Heir and Control them.
He's also operating second hand as this isn't actually even the Prophecy he's following but Vilgefortz's INTERPRETATION of the Prophecy. Vilgefortz is, notably, a man who has very questionable understanding of it to begin with but believes it is the key for the right man to become ruler of the world. Emhyr as well.
Emhyr and Vilgefortz are both OBJECTIVELY TERRIBLE PEOPLE. They're charismatic, intelligent, and horrifying in equal measures because they do things which are inexcusable yet don't quite seem to understand why people find these offensive.
They're not MALEVOLENT people like, say, Leo Bonhart but both individuals don't really have LIMITS to what they will do to accomplish their goals. It's why Emhyr and Vilgefortz are CONFUSED by Geralt since both men like Geralt a great deal and don't understand why he's being such an asshole to them. Both really wish Geralt would just hand over Ciri so he could become their personal servant and be rewarded handsomely. They respect his competence, professionalism, and ruthlessness without realizing he loathes their morality (or lack thereof).
It's why I can't really support Empress Ciri even if I don't have anything really against Nilfgaard beyond the slavery issue (and we don't know what the circumstances of that are since there have been variations on it across history).
I think the diagnosis that both Emhyr and Vilgefortz are psychopaths is a good one but they're not HOLLYWOOD psychopaths but real-life ones in that they just don't quite get the social cues or moral cues other people get which tell them when something is unforgivably wrong. The choice to marry his own daughter is because the Prophecy has a line which could refer to Emhyr's lineage joining with Pavettas' and creating the Chosen One. Emhyr really doesn't need to marry Ciri because he's married Pavetta but he wants to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that the Chosen One is under his control (Ciri's son) and it's not enough that Ciri is his blood, he has to raise the Heir and Control them.
He's also operating second hand as this isn't actually even the Prophecy he's following but Vilgefortz's INTERPRETATION of the Prophecy. Vilgefortz is, notably, a man who has very questionable understanding of it to begin with but believes it is the key for the right man to become ruler of the world. Emhyr as well.
@Willowhugger
There is no such thing as "objectively horrible" or "objectively terrible". Descriptions such as "horrible" and "terrible" will always be subjective. Proof of that is the fact that I completely disagree with you. I don't think every monarch in the North is horrible and I don't think Emhyr is as horrible as you make him out to be.
Come on man, we've been over this already. You should know better than to continue spewing this "objectively horrible" nonsense.
There is no such thing as "objectively horrible" or "objectively terrible". Descriptions such as "horrible" and "terrible" will always be subjective. Proof of that is the fact that I completely disagree with you. I don't think every monarch in the North is horrible and I don't think Emhyr is as horrible as you make him out to be.
Come on man, we've been over this already. You should know better than to continue spewing this "objectively horrible" nonsense.
Objectivity would say that a man who wants to marry his own daughter against her will is horrible.
Objectivity would say that a man who wants to marry his own daughter against her will is horrible.
No, that's completely subjective. I don't disagree that trying to marry and impregnate your own daughter is a horrible act, but unlike you I'm not pretending it to be anything more than just my opinion.
Good versus evil. Moral versus immoral. Those will always be subjective things, no matter what.
My subjective opinion is that the vast majority of people will find that unforgivably wrong.
If Emhyr was such a horrible person, why did he not marry and impregante Ciri at the end? he had every state reason to do it since it would finally solidify his grip on Cintra and would provide him with a Heir who would become the world`s savior and ruler. The man basically destroyed his plans because in the end he cared and loved Ciri and understood she could be happier with Geralt and Yennefer.
I also don't believe a man should be judged by his actions, but by his intent. A person can do all the wrong things and still be a well-intentioned good person.
But that is just my opinion. Just like you have your opinions that might differ from mine. As long as you understand that what you say is just your opinion and don't try to falsely pass off your subjective opinions as objective facts we're just fine.
But that is just my opinion. Just like you have your opinions that might differ from mine. As long as you understand that what you say is just your opinion and don't try to falsely pass off your subjective opinions as objective facts we're just fine.
I'm more ineterested in the "What is a monster theme" involved in regular people. When ordinary, everyday people commit acts of unspeakable evil, that's what interests me. We got more of that in TW1 than TW2.
Anyways, off-topic. I was just skimming the thread and that caught my eye.
Argumentum ad populum fallacy.
Even if the whole world would think it's unforgivably wrong (which I highly doubt), it would still just be an subjective opinion.
I think it was because of a variety of factors but in the case of Emhyr, it was something which was a bridge too far even for him. It's all well and good to plan to rape and impregnate your daughter but apparently doing it is a bit more than he was willing to do.
Even so, he hasn't abandoned his ambitions completely as we see him basically returning to what he was doing in the books in The Witcher 3.
It's just he's contenting himself as the grandfather rather than the father of the Chosen One.
At least, that was my interpretation.
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Sure, okay.
:cheers:
Actually, not necessarily. It all depends on a definition. Pain and suffering are not subjective. Pain hurts, you know, and it is something that people are trying to avoid. You can go all biological here, and still get a good working definition.
Here I am going to incur some wraith, I believe, but marrying and impregnating one's daughter is not a horrible act in itself. We may consider incest disgusting, but disgust is not a basis for morality. If two consenting adults who are closely biologically related, emgage in sexual relations, I do not see anything evil here.
Ciri did not want Emhyr. Period. It had nothing to do with him being her father. If he were to go through, father or not, it would be irrelevant. The same shit as with Henselt and Ves, no better, no worse.