How effective should law enforcement be?

[Harthwain]

Don't misunderstand, I KNOW it's pixels not people, I KNOW playing video games doesn't lead to real life mass murder, and I KNOW many (most?) games are centered around killing stuff.
It's just that I'm seriously disappointed that most supposedly RPG computer/console games can be used by a player as a shooting gallery with little to no repercussion in the game itself. It's NOT so much that I lament players doing so but that I find the games lack of response to it very disappointing.

Now that makes a lot of sense. I do agree that game should provide incentives that discourage from killing left and right. In PayDay 2 killing civilians is not something you want to do, because it costs you a lot of money (especially on higher difficulty levels). It doesn't mean that you can't shoot someone who's trying to call the police, but it encourages you to not go on a killing spree. It also helps that money is deduced from your personal account, not from the whole team's overall reward poll or their personal accounts. It's very well tied to game's overall mechanics.

I quite enjoy the Gran Turismo series.

I also enjoyed Portal very much.

Note that I didn't say there are no games that offer non-killing joy (like Ticket to Ride). Therefore your examples prove nothing, because I didn't question their existence to begin with.

 

[Suhiira]

Now that makes a lot of sense. I do agree that game should provide incentives that discourage from killing left and right. In PayDay 2 killing civilians is not something you want to do, because it costs you a lot of money (especially on higher difficulty levels). It doesn't mean that you can't shoot someone who's trying to call the police, but it encourages you to not go on a killing spree. It also helps that money is deduced from your personal account, not from the whole team's overall reward poll or their personal accounts. It's very well tied to game's overall mechanics.

Perhaps not the "best" incentive not to kill NPCs at random but certainly far better then nothing.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

If people aren't caring enlough about NPC life it can be either that games are failing in that department, that some developers are holding them back, that consumers are the ones holding them back or yeah, a serious problem. Like I implied in one of my earlier posts in this thread, I find it unsettling that people of this generation see things like political correctiess in the fields of sexual, racial, political, cultural... diversity as "pushing an agenda" i

The problem is not that PC people have an agenda. They do. That's the very definition of being PC.

The problem is that they make crap art and worse games to put it in a PC way.

 

[Decatonkeil]

The problem is not that PC people have an agenda. They do. That's the very definition of being PC.

The problem is that they make crap art and worse games to put it in a PC way.

Examples, please?

 

[Sardukhar]

Examples, please?

Letssss...be careful here. Poet can be, ah, very firm in his opinions, which is great, but it can also lead to other people returning fire - with interest. Political Correctness is a soft subject and can easily stray into personal prejudices. For everyone.

On the subject of Political Correctness in videogames, either a) tie it to Law Enforcement b) start a new thread and no matter what, c)be polite and pretend to be respectful.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Examples, please?

It`s a broad question. What would you consider to be politically correct game or art?

 

[Decatonkeil]

It`s a broad question. What would you consider to be politically correct game or art?

I supposed you thought that there were politically correct game, that's why you said they had shit story and art, but, reading Sard's words of wisdom000... I mean, just wisdom, I think it may be better if we stopped derailing from the topic "How effective should law enforcement be" which is, yeah, a game mechanic. And we went all pretty political from a point onward. I wasn't even trying to push the idea that political correctness should even be the norm, it's a question i don't know the answer to. What I was implying is that I think it's miopic to think that trying to reach a broader audience, trying not to misrepresent or alienate entire groups in videogames... is pushing an agenda while keeping enforcing other things is not. I don't want things shoehorned though, they damage the narrative.

 

[Harthwain]

Perhaps not the "best" incentive not to kill NPCs at random but certainly far better then nothing.

I'd have to ask what incentive to not to kill NPCs you'd consider to be the "best". Are you speaking in terms of motivation? Ethically speaking "I don't want to die/go to jail [when police will respond to a situation I've caused]" is also not the "best" incentive not to kill NPCs at random. However, for me it suffices that mechanic put into place achieves the desired result (which is - not killing a hostages). Players are result driven.

 

[Suhiira]

I'd have to ask what incentive to not to kill NPCs you'd consider to be the "best". Are you speaking in terms of motivation? Ethically speaking "I don't want to die/go to jail [when police will respond to a situation I've caused]" is also not the "best" incentive not to kill NPCs at random. However, for me it suffices that mechanic put into place achieves the desired result (which is - not killing a hostages). Players are result driven.

I'd say being hung in midevil or western setting games or tossed in jail in more modern ones would be OK (in game of course).
Basically "Game Over" results rather then the current "go ahead, have fun" ones. Realistic repercussions vice subtle encouragement via a basically total lack of repercussions.

 

[Harthwain]

I see, but I fail to understand how this would be the "best" incentive. Best in what sense? Certainly not in a sense of results achieved.

 

[Suhiira]

I see, but I fail to understand how this would be the "best" incentive. Best in what sense? Certainly not in a sense of results achieved.

Why "best" is in quotes. It's certainly NOT the BEST one, merely the best I've seen so far.

 

[Phinnway]

It seems to me there would be other types of authorities besides the police. I mean, if you go to an area where a gang has a lot of influence they're essentially going to be the "police" of that area. If you go into a corporations building the corporate security is going to have a lot of power if they catch messing around.

So I guess I would like a dynamic "authority" system where there are different types of security forces or whatever and depending on how you've offended their faction and what type of technology they have (theoretically police would have better technology than gangs) they might hunt you down or attack you if they see you in a public area.

 

[sheldoronline]

#2 - Just what is a player going to do while their character sits twiddling their thumbs for 5, 10, 60 minutes in the safe house while the manhunt slacks off?

The thread drifted to other points but while in safehouse limbo there is plenty that needs to be done: first, you are never out of communications with trusted contacts/ confidents/ go-betweens and those relationships take time to cultivate and maintain; second, there is the watching how events play out without having to split your concentration to worry about your safety; thirdly, you finally have the time, energy, and concentration to work on background investigations/research, id'ing cryptopattern and security patterns, setting up network searches for monitoring and deep web searches, equipment repairs and new equipment creation not only for yourself but others who might be using the same safehouse, writing of lyrics and coming up with new catchphrases, learning new skills and practicing/refining one's art; fourth, there are always improvements to the safehouse that are needed whether that is for basic living or security or advanced features.. anyone who just sits in a safehouse twiddling their respectable thumbs doesn't deserve to use the safehouse. They are a liability, not an asset, that endangers everyone who has a tie to the safehouse and its just a matter of time before bad things happen to them.

 

[Calistarius]

If the game counts days, then maybe once you reach your safehouse, and you maybe chocie an option there called "lay low" to reduce high wanted levels on you(this could appplie to both police, gang factions, corperate factions, etc), then the game automaticly forward the game time (or maybe does a simmilar thing to how you can forward time in for example Skyrim).

It should maybe be at a minimum of 12 hours, but I would be ok with up to 24 hours. Or a version could maybe be that how long you stay there could be dependent on how high your wanted level is. Like an hour for 1 wanted level, 3h for 2 WL, 6h for 3 WL, 12h for 4 WL... and if let's say 5 wanted levels is the highest then you have to stay in hiding for 24 hours.

But then of course the game would have to have a system where you have timelimits on some/many missions as well, where if you do go into hiding you run the risk of failing your missions because the time ran out. Just to balance it out a bit.

Also, maybe there should be some kind of "cool down" on laying low as well, so you can not just spam it as you like. Or maybe a better alternative would be a period of time right after you layed low (possibly equal to how long you had to lay low, or anything from 1.5 to 2 times as long as you had to lay low, compleatly depends on how fast the ingame time runs in the game) where the threshold for getting WL (or being found or recognized or something) is much higher due to the relevant faction still being more alert trying to still find you for a period of time. This could also be dependent on just how high or low standings you have with said faction/'s as well.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

I think it should be relatively easy to get away with crimes, even major ones. Even mass murder sprees,depending on the location you are in, the state of local L.E (or lack thereof) and the affiliations that you have. I think you should be able to get away with most white collar crimes.

To have a big game over screen when you do something objectionable is the wrong approach. It`s arbitrary, cheap and it`s fake.

But if you screw up, there should be consequences that are long lasting on gameplay itself.

Maybe for the rest of the game unless you do something very drastic .E.g. You remodel your whole body via plastic surgery. You drop all your custom cyber because police electronic warfare teams are on the prowl and you have a very distinct EMF signature (just throwing something out there, no clue if it`s feasible).
Or you have to be always on the run. Or you have to get a private army. Rough up some high end politicians to put pressure on the police chief.

It should be something that would disturb your overall strategy so only well prepared players would get away with it.

 

[RLKing1969]

Ok, here's my take on the original post. Most of the time, the cops WON'T GET INVOLVED....unless you are being a total asshat (Committing a bunch of homicides or generally being a total, antisocial douche')..Then look out! More than likely if they get involved, you probably WON'T WANT THEM TO! Piss them off or annoy them TOO badly, and you'll have to deal with S.W.A.T. and If S.W.A.T can't handle it, a call will go out to C-SWAT (A.K.A Max-Tac) and then...GOD HELP YOU! Now as far as "White collar, corp sponsored indesgressions ? The arrest rate is usually abysmal as the corps run the show. The civilian cops probably won't get much of a chance to investigate the crime and even if they DO, all your average corp has to do is to flash his "Corporate Immunity", get turned over to his corp and , provided the crime wasn't too "serious", get a slap on the wrist. Now if the Corp really screws up, a corp can opt to not get involved and leave the perp to the "not -so-tender mercies" of the law... or they can just have the perp offed, at their fiat. That's it in a nutshell.

 

[Guest 4149880]

I think it should be realistic in that if you are seen, recorded or simple caught committing a crime, it will be enforced, and depending on how you react will be up to you. Paying huge fines. Getting arrested and going to jail, actually playing out jail time and even escape jail. Or attempting to fight or escape the crime scene, be a wanted criminal but risk being hunted by bounty hunters (Hint: Other players) or end up dead from resisting the police to much. But on the other hand, if you commit crimes no one seen, or you had your identity concealed, you might get away. But this is Cyberpunk 2077, so all that is the basic stuff.

 

[Suhiira]

Now as far as "White collar, corp sponsored indesgressions ? The arrest rate is usually abysmal as the corps run the show. The civilian cops probably won't get much of a chance to investigate the crime and even if they DO, all your average corp has to do is to flash his "Corporate Immunity", get turned over to his corp <clip>

Oh, I agree "White Collar" crime is an entirely different ballgame from the "Street Crime" we've been discussing here.

While it would be GREAT if you could embezzle, dump toxic waste in backyards, and use sub-standard materials/construction to increase your (i.e. corporate, since of course you get a cut) profits I don't think CP2077 is going to delve that deeply into the world of White Collar crime. Now the stuff some players do, mass murder sprees for instance, will happen unless CDPR takes some steps to prevent them, and by ignoring such things (like most games do) they break the immersion of their own game.

 

[walkingdarkly]

@BeastModeIron
@Suhiira
Here's a few tidbits about law and order in the world of Cyberpunk 2020/2077:

1. The entire country is basically under perpetual martial law even though it was suspended in 1999 due to massive crime waves during 1996, which was also the year criminal defense lawyers were lynched in mass.
2. Punishments are more severe than what you guys are thinking and even prisons are 100 times worse.
3. Plea bargaining and probation no longer exist, the death penalty is the basic punishment for murder, though there is a 3 month appeal process.
4. Most felonies have a mandatory prison term of 5 to 10 years.
5. Lesser crimes are punished with exile chips(you will never go back to that city again) or personality adjustment( you will become terrified of committing your crime again)
6. Narcotics are still illegal but they don't exist because the DEA got fed up and created a bio-engineered plant disease and wiped out 96% of all coca and opium plants in existence. Designer drugs don't count because they're considered medicinal.

In Night City punishment for crimes is swift, certain and draconian (think Judge Dredd if you know who he is) and usually a cop will just cap you instead of bothering to bring you, specially if he's a Corporate Cop, people who police corporate zones, they're sick, viscous and sadistic and get their crimes covered up by the Corporation. Also for a few more points, gun control doesn't exist, self-defense is an American past time now. Though there is still a ban on assault weapons and even submachineguns, but no one follows those.

Prisons are even worse, more overcrowded and even deadlier and if you piss off the wrong guards, isolation is now a cryo-tank where you are forced into "braindance" - wired to an interface loop program and shut down for a 2 to 3 year period. This causes a continuous braindance loop that keeps you in an unending nightmare.

 

[Metropolice]

@BeastModeIron
@Suhiira
Here's a few tidbits about law and order in the world of Cyberpunk 2020/2077:

1. The entire country is basically under perpetual martial law even though it was suspended in 1999 due to massive crime waves during 1996, which was also the year criminal defense lawyers were lynched in mass.
2. Punishments are more severe than what you guys are thinking and even prisons are 100 times worse.
3. Plea bargaining and probation no longer exist, the death penalty is the basic punishment for murder, though there is a 3 month appeal process.
4. Most felonies have a mandatory prison term of 5 to 10 years.
5. Lesser crimes are punished with exile chips(you will never go back to that city again) or personality adjustment( you will become terrified of committing your crime again)
6. Narcotics are still illegal but they don't exist because the DEA got fed up and created a bio-engineered plant disease and wiped out 96% of all coca and opium plants in existence. Designer drugs don't count because they're considered medicinal.

In Night City punishment for crimes is swift, certain and draconian (think Judge Dredd if you know who he is) and usually a cop will just cap you instead of bothering to bring you, specially if he's a Corporate Cop, people who police corporate zones, they're sick, viscous and sadistic and get their crimes covered up by the Corporation. Also for a few more points, gun control doesn't exist, self-defense is an American past time now. Though there is still a ban on assault weapons and even submachineguns, but no one follows those.

Prisons are even worse, more overcrowded and even deadlier and if you piss off the wrong guards, isolation is now a cryo-tank where you are forced into "braindance" - wired to an interface loop program and shut down for a 2 to 3 year period. This causes a continuous braindance loop that keeps you in an unending nightmare.

That awfully sounds like a Judge Dredd-style environment. I'm not firm on the lore and, ironic to the name I have, think that it should generally be a challenge when the right circumstances apply.

I'm firmly against the "basic" or "dumbed down" GTA-like system with different wanted levels. Don't get me wrong, the idea itself makes sense: Scaled law enforcement that (de-)escalates if more or less things happen, but not an omnipotent one that just keeps spawning or always almost automatically knows where you are and spawns near you.

I'm mostly hoping for a smart and perhaps localized system with different actors pursuing you according to their mentality, jurisdiction, power, and coverage. Ideally this works for most factions, from a gang of thugs in their area to corporate cops on their turfs of general city cops in general.

We'll see, I suppose.