I realized another reason why TW2 is superior to TW3

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I realized another reason why TW2 is superior to TW3

Bit of a long post, so bear with me.

So, there have already been plenty of discussions on why TW2 had better narrative/structure/politics than TW3, with most of the latter's faults being the open-world setting and weak writing (Eredin's few lines, Dijkstra's sudden idiocy, Radovid's madness, etc.).

But recently, after having read the novels, I came to realize that another reason why TW2 is better is because it, in short, does its own thing.

It has its own characters, all of them memorable - Roche, Iorveth (Barely comes up in the novels), Letho, Saskia, Ves - and its own plot, dealing with Geralt and Triss going on an adventure that has no connection to the Witcher Saga. The Assassins of Kings, the hunt for Letho, the events in Flotsam, Vergen, and Loc Muinne - this all constitutes a story that took elements from Sapkowski's world (Including its protagonist) and, while making homages to them, made its own ORIGINAL STORY full of intrigue, drama, and emotional highs and lows. Compare this to TW3, which is pretty much a direct continuation of the Witcher Saga, and while this may appeal to some, it makes the game fall entirely flat when viewed on its own. Just watch the scene in which Geralt, Triss, and Roche first meet Iorveth, and remember that other than Geralt and Triss (Who are in a relationship and thus very distanced from their versions in the novels), NOTHING in this scene is a continuation of the Witcher Saga. It takes inspiration from it, yes, but it is entirely its own story.


TW2 had the confidence to strike out on its own, using the source material as a base, and it created a unique story that everyone can agree is the best-written in the series - a whole blog has been written just about TW2's politics and characters. The game dealt with rape, 'terrorism', nationalism and revenge in a more mature way than a game could ever be expected to. Even TW1 had more of its own story, regardless of the Ciri stand-in that was Alvin or Triss's strange attitude.

Lastly, I would even argue that the absence of characters like Ciri or Yennefer - while this may have been unintentional in TW1 - really helped Geralt shine as a character. In the books beyond the first one, his life practically revolves around Ciri and protecting her, and he's locked into a toxic relationship with Yennefer. While this may have been okay in the books, the change of pace in TW2 - travelling with Triss and Roche, having a goal that has nothing to do with Ciri (Finding the Kingslayer), really showed me that Geralt was capable of being in far more interesting stories. In TW3, other than in HoS and (most) side-quests, he reverts back to his character from the novels. Again, this may be find for some, but it hardly allows for character versatility. If any future games are made in the setting of the Witcher, I hope that CDPR lets go of Geralt, Ciri, and the Witcher Saga and simply tells its own story.
 
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I blame open world and Ciri. Man, the quality of storytelling in W2 is something you only find in novel's. W2 was so well paced, and you felt like everything you were doing was important in finding the kingslayer. The character, the conspiracy, the conflict... W2 was so unique and bold in what it did! I cannot leave this Earth in peace knowing that I'll never play another game like it!!
 
Agreed...somehow I like more TW2 plot over TW3. It felt more mature and deep in comparison to the rather cartoonish Wild Hunt. TW3 ultimately failed to provide a good villain IMO and there weren't that much political conspiracies (other than Djikstra plot). Also not to sound disrespectful but Ciri was a Mary Sue that saved the day. The plot was too much focused on her and her abilities to save the world while TW2 plot was more an ordinary (but extraordinary) tale of politics, intrigues and deceit.

My two cents.
 
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Bit of a long post, so bear with me.

So, there have already been plenty of discussions on why TW2 had better narrative/structure/politics than TW3, with most of the latter's faults being the open-world setting and weak writing (Eredin's few lines, Dijkstra's sudden idiocy, Radovid's madness, etc.).

But recently, after having read the novels, I came to realize that another reason why TW2 is better is because it, in short, does its own thing.

It has its own characters, all of them memorable - Roche, Iorveth (Barely comes up in the novels), Letho, Saskia, Ves - and its own plot, dealing with Geralt and Triss going on an adventure that has no connection to the Witcher Saga. The Assassins of Kings, the hunt for Letho, the events in Flotsam, Vergen, and Loc Muinne - this all constitutes a story that took elements from Sapkowski's world (Including its protagonist) and, while making homages to them, made its own ORIGINAL STORY full of intrigue, drama, and emotional highs and lows. Compare this to TW3, which is pretty much a direct continuation of the Witcher Saga, and while this may appeal to some, it makes the game fall entirely flat when viewed on its own. Just watch the scene in which Geralt, Triss, and Roche first meet Iorveth, and remember that other than Geralt and Triss (Who are in a relationship and thus very distanced from their versions in the novels), NOTHING in this scene is a continuation of the Witcher Saga. It takes inspiration from it, yes, but it is entirely its own story.


TW2 had the confidence to strike out on its own, using the source material as a base, and it created a unique story that everyone can agree is the best-written in the series - a whole blog has been written just about TW2's politics and characters. The game dealt with rape, 'terrorism', nationalism and revenge in a more mature way than a game could ever be expected to. Even TW1 had more of its own story, regardless of the Ciri stand-in that was Alvin or Triss's strange attitude.

Lastly, I would even argue that the absence of characters like Ciri or Yennefer - while this may have been unintentional in TW1 - really helped Geralt shine as a character. In the books beyond the first one, his life practically revolves around Ciri and protecting her, and he's locked into a toxic relationship with Yennefer. While this may have been okay in the books, the change of pace in TW2 - travelling with Triss and Roche, having a goal that has nothing to do with Ciri (Finding the Kingslayer), really showed me that Geralt was capable of being in far more interesting stories. In TW3, other than in HoS and (most) side-quests, he reverts back to his character from the novels. Again, this may be find for some, but it hardly allows for character versatility. If any future games are made in the setting of the Witcher, I hope that CDPR lets go of Geralt, Ciri, and the Witcher Saga and simply tells its own story.

I shall give you a Red point because your post is well-reasoned and clearly articulated, and I agree with the basic sentiment behind it, i.e. that CDPR should focus more on their own stories and less on mimicking Sapkowski.

In the interest of fairness, CDPR did do an excellent job with the side quests in TW3, particularly with the way they weave in and out of the main narrative and generally avoid the feeling of busy work.

When judging the overall final product, I think it's also important to take the expansions into account - something which the previous two games lacked - and HoS was a worthy addition to the series by any standard.
 
I have to agree.

I was glad to see Yenneer or Dijsktra (except for the Reason of state ending) in TW3, they are interesting characters. But otherwise, TW3 focused on the continuation of the least interesting part of the whole saga - Ciri, Dearg Ruadhri and Avallac'h. I seriously doubt that there is anyone whose favourite part of the books is Ciri in Tir ná Lia and whose favorite villain from the books was Eredin. And the way they used them made it even worse (like the White Frost deus ex machina and everything related to it).

It is fair to admit that TW3 is a great game. But it could have had a better story (even though it is much more difficult to accomplish in the open world).
 

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I think both games did mostly well at what they've tried to achieve: TW2 had this complex, intriguing political story, TW3 went for more emotional, intimate, personal one. The thing is - you can have the former with mostly new set of characters. There is no way you can have the latter without Ciri and Yennefer. Neither is inherently, objectively superior to the other, it's about what you prefer, personally.
I disagree about Geralt shining as a character more in the previous games - TW3 version of Geralt of Rivia is by far my favorite one.
TW3 story have the major problem in the final few hours, there is no denying that, but I don't see how it's connected to following the books to closely, in fact all of these issues are because of the retcons of the book characters and events and the rushed, sloppy writing:
- Dijkstra's suicidal plan to become the ruler of the North
- comically inaccurate portrayal of Eredin
- immediate White Frost that Ciri is supposed to stop
CDPR just took too many artistic liberties with those and we've seen the results.
Overall, I enjoyed both games immensely, but I have to say I was much more invested in finding Yennefer and Ciri than catching the Kingslayer and rescuing Triss.
 
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Bang on OP. You could say the same about TW1 as that too was more their own creation. The books became an albatross around the writer's necks because they wanted to 'finish' Sapkowski's story instead of their own. They had no respect for the story they told in TW2. Reading the books, it's obvious why they included Ciri, but I see her inclusion and the sheer size of the world as the the biggest mistakes. Her plight may be compelling, but she has none of the complexity of Geralt or other major characters. Yen, Triss, the Baron - all are way more interesting. Including her also meant bringing the high fantasy cliches front and center, and we all saw how this turned out. What happened when they went back to their own thing for HoS? A much better story. So use the books as a setting, and that's it. Leave Sapkowski's characters and plots behind. This is how most major IPs are successfully adapted- not continuing what the original does, but reforming it for your own purposes. I hope the Cyberpunk team saw this mistake and can benefit from it.
 
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I think both games did mostly well at what they've tried to achieve: TW2 had this complex, intriguing political story, TW3 went for more emotional, intimate, personal one. The thing is - you can have the former with mostly new set of characters. There is no way you can have the latter without Ciri and Yennefer. Neither is inherently, objectively superior to the other, it's about what you prefer, personally.
I disagree about Geralt shining as a character more in the previous games - TW3 version of Geralt of Rivia is by far my favorite one.
TW3 story have the major problem in the final few hours, there is no denying that, but I don't see how it's connected to following the books to closely, in fact all of these issues are because of the retcons of the book characters and events and the rushed, sloppy writing:
- Dijkstra's suicidal plan to become the ruler of the North
- comically inaccurate portrayal of Eredin
- immediate White Frost that Ciri is supposed to stop
CDPR just took too many artistic liberties with those and we've seen the results.
Overall, I enjoyed both games immensely, but I have to say I was much more invested in finding Yennefer and Ciri than catching the Kingslayer and rescuing Triss.
This.

Honestly OP, you're talking about the plot, all the 3 games have something better than the other, for me W1 alchemy and skill tree were the best. As for W2, the pacing and complex politics... but let's not forget the 3rd act was abruptly cut and shorter (now that W3 is out people started to forget that). Everything I didn't mention was better in W3. Even here the third act and retcons of book story arcs introduced in the game ruined a bit the final result, and of course the lack of importance for the previous games choices.

As for the "new" characters I liked W3 mostly, neither Roche, Iorveth and Saskia affected my playthorugh like the Bloody Baron, Cerys and Priscilla, nonetheless I liked to see Roche, Ves or Letho again.

So every game was better in something. But saying W2 was totally superior to W3? Nah.
 
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the quality of storytelling in W2 is something you only find in novel's. W2 was so well paced, and you felt like everything you were doing was important in finding the kingslayer. The character, the conspiracy, the conflict... W2 was so unique and bold in what it did! I cannot leave this Earth in peace knowing that I'll never play another game like it!!
Pretty much . Playing Witcher 2 was like reading/watching a good thriller.
Playing Witcher 3 is like reading a mediocre high fantasy novel or watching a marvel superhero movie.

I still cannot believe how bad the main story of the game was. Witcher 2 had so many twists, surprises and "wtf" moments for me, while Witcher 3 had such a simple, straightforward and partly (White Frost) stupid mainstoryline that I can't believe these two games were developed by the same studio.

(Though I don't blame Ciri or the open world)
 
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(Though I don't blame Ciri or the open world)

How would you explain the difference then? Better narrative is easier in games which have gradual progress in certain defined order. Open world simply doesn't allow it and requires building narrative in a loose way.
 
Bang on OP. You could say the same about TW1 as that too was more their own creation. The books became an albatross around the writer's necks because they wanted to 'finish' Sapkowski's story instead of their own. They had no respect for the story they told in TW2. Reading the books, it's obvious why they included Ciri, but I see her inclusion and the sheer size of the world as the the biggest mistakes. Her plight may be compelling, but she has none of the complexity of Geralt or other major characters. Yen, Triss, the Baron - all are way more interesting. Including her also meant bringing the high fantasy cliches front and center, and we all saw how this turned out. What happened when they went back to their own thing for HoS? A much better story. So use the books as a setting, and that's it. Leave Sapkowski's characters and plots behind. This is how most major IPs are successfully adapted- not continuing what the original does, but reforming it for your own purposes. I hope the Cyberpunk team saw this mistake and can benefit from it.

I disagree that the mere involvement of Ciri was the problem. It's rather how she was involved. Nobody forced CDP to sanitize her in comparison to the books. Even if you find her bland in the books, nobody forced CDp to make her the main character of the game or making the game about finding and protecting her. Nobody forced CDP to give her the role of the savior of the universe- a role she never had in the novels.
Nobody forced CDP to portray the Wild Hunt as shallow and just evil. Nobody forced CDP to rewrite the White frost into the big villain.

Even with the Wild Hunt and Ciri involved , a grounded, witcher-like story would have been possible.
Why not use the White Frost as a background threat just like in the books?
Why not focus on the conflict between the Aen Seidhe and humans just like in the previous two games, but this time with the Wild Hunt as a additional factor?
I believe it would have been interesting to see the humans being pushed in the same role as they pushed the Aen Seidhe elves. Just as the humans consider themselves superior to the Aen Seidhe Elves, the Aen Elle elves think they are superior to humans. This conflict between the Aen Elle- humans- Aen Seidhe would have been far more interesting imo than the Wild Hunt's chase for Ciri.

A trilogy around Geralt without showing the relationship between Ciri and him would feel incomplete and wrong. That's why I consider the moments which show this relationship some of the few really good parts of the main story.
But she should have been there in a different role. Not as someone who has to save the universe from destruction.

Witcher's strenght was always to tell "grounded" stories mixed with some supernatural elements. Just like the Bloody Baron or Hearts of Stone. Such a main story would have been possible with Ciri, the Wild Hunt and White Frost.

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How would you explain the difference then? Better narrative is easier in games which have gradual progress in certain defined order. Open world simply doesn't allow it and requires building narrative in a loose way.
I think Witcher 3 shows that it's not necessarily the case, though certainly easier.
The Bloody Baron is considered to be the best storyline in the game.
Ironically the Blood Baron is also the most "open world" questline.
It's not only taking place in the biggest open world area (Velen) but also supposed to be played at the very beginning. During a time in which there are still tons of side quests, monster contracts, horse races, fist fights, gwent players etc. left A lot of potential diversion and yet it didn't distract from the quest or made it any worse

On the other hand people on this forum consider the 3rd act to be the weakest parf of the game, which is also the most linear part. Most people have finished all the side stuff at this point and probably focus completely on the main quest. Except for Reason of State no new side quests are added in the 3rd act.

I don't think the open world itself is responsible for the bad main quest, but the ressources which had to be used to create the open world and fill most of it, were indeed a factor. Though the solution would have been to make it smaller but going open world for a game like Witcher 3 made a lot of sense if you ask me.
 
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How would you explain the difference then? Better narrative is easier in games which have gradual progress in certain defined order. Open world simply doesn't allow it and requires building narrative in a loose way.

They actually pull it off quite well in the first third of the game, at times, brilliantly even. So it can be done in an open world. But we know they bit off more than they could chew based on interviews and some of their comments on the forum. I also feel the sheer scale of the project wasn't feasible for a 3 year dev cycle, which means they may not have had time to iterate enough on the story before VOs had to be produced. What I don't get is the disparity in quality between side quests and the main story line. With a few exceptions ( Bloody Baron) side quests are better written and deal with thematic content better than the main story.
 
Well, in case of TW2 some of the side quests, especially added in the enhanced edition are ones of the best in the game too. My favorite is The Secrets of Loc Muinne.

I guess writing a side quest is somewhat easier since it's more self contained and gives more artistic freedom. And in result they are some of the best examples in the game.
 
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As for the "new" characters I liked W3 mostly, neither Roche, Iorveth and Saskia affected my playthorugh like the Bloody Baron, Cerys and Priscilla, nonetheless I liked to see Roche, Ves or Letho again.

Cerys and Priscilla? Not the best examples imo, i like them but even Ves and Saskia have more depth. ( Even though i would agree with Cerys if in the final game she would have really been the fake Cirilla)

TW3 is not good with complex characters, too much black&white ( Radovid/Emhyr, Yen/Triss, , Hjalmar/Cerys etc...) instead TW2 is basically composed by grey characters only. (Even Loredo is more believable than Radovid)

TW3 is superior only with the "funny characters" like Johnny, the Pellar, prick Lambert and Uma imo. But when things get serious everyone go retarded (Roche/Thaler dealing with Nilfgaard, Dijsktra with that genial ambush, Radovid goes full mad, Avallac'h at the end with his heart made of pure gold, Eredin..... can't even say a thing about him). Sure the Baron is a good written and well developed character but... that's it?

The Baron is the only character of TW3 who is worth mentioning? Because all over the internet i don't read any articles and praises about Crach, Hjalmar, Avallac'h, Cerys, Priscilla, Mousesack, King of Beggars, Clever, Menge, Whoreson Junior, Emhyr, Voorhis, Dudu etc...

I just hear of the Baron, Uma and Johnny. The real stars of this game.

With this i'm not saying that the characters of TW3 are shit, even though some of them don't end well and some are even missing, but they're not at all developed like those of TW2
 
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I just hear of the Baron, Uma and Johnny. The real stars of this game.

The best characters in TW3 for me come from the HoS expansion, the von Everec brothers and Gaunter O'Dimm. I also like what they did with Shani, I found her to be mostly annoying in TW1 but in HoS she was suddenly quite likable. :)

Many other returning characters could and should have been handled way better though (Roche, Thaler, Letho, Radovid and especially Síle)
 
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I hope the Cyberpunk team saw this mistake and can benefit from it.

Sorry that I keep quoting you, Garrison (I promise I'm not stalking!), but I just wanted to say that I think juxtaposing the Witcher franchise and CP 2077 is like comparing apples to oranges. Cyberpunk has a very limited literary corpus, basically two poorly written novels (according to @Sardukhar, at least) that Mike Pondsmith had no hand in. The rest is mainly comprised of a pen and paper RPG. I am sure that they will want to remain faithful to the Cyberpunk 2020 aesthetic, but I doubt that there will be much pressure either externally or internally to crib anything, simply because the universe isn't as fleshed out as Sapkowski's. The Cyberpunk setting should be much more conducive to original storytelling.

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With this i'm not saying that the characters of TW3 are shit, even though some of them don't end well and some are even missing, but they're not at all developed like those of TW2

I think it's hilarious that the one relatively positive comment which I have seen you make is hidden behind a spoiler tag. Afraid to let the world know that you have a soft side, Holgar? :p
 
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I think it's hilarious that the one positive comment which I have seen you make is hidden behind a spoiler tag. Afraid to let the world know that you have a soft side, Holgar? :p

Ahah, actually only the first part of that comment is positive :p

But yeah, i don't want to say too many good things because this game deserves only pure hatred and disdain :hai:

Just kidding
Not really
Iorveth is still not in the game :p
 
Interesting theory, the insistence on having the game baseline being a fan service was definitely mistake, also because it was disconnected of the series core approach. I do think, however, that it's essentialy a part of a more basic reason for the story's poor quality, which is the serious change in the writing team. I don't think TW3 wtiters knew what TW2 were aiming for, that's why TW3 abandoned so many of TW2's built-up premises (The lodge and Saskia, Witcher school of the Viper, Geralt being a red rider) and some of the series themes (racial conflict), and also, well maybe the writers themselves haven't the same talent as TW2 writers...
 
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