Is it true open-world or psuedo open-world?

[frivolousam]

TW3 isn't only No man's land and Skellige + Novigrad. It will also feature some smaller, story-relevant hubs (probably Kaer Morhen, Vizima, flashback scenes,...)

The problem with seamless open worlds is imo staging, pacing and complexity. If you have a complex story to tell with a lot of choice and consequence in a kind of realistic fashion, it's better to narrow down your locations to reduce overall complexity and to enable focused level design.

That's still one of my biggest concerns with TW3, that the world is already too big and too connected...

Yeah I was thinking of big areas but if it had fit the lore map; like all -needed for story- locations was near the main regions of the game and included in one of the big maps, I don't see how it would take away from the game. Story blockades are already there and can be used more often for pacing. Simple logic suggests: If "staging, pacing and complexity" can be done in the current big areas, couple more included locations wouldn't change anything. But game which is loyal to lore map is already there and we're hypothesizing here for nothing good for it

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Seems like they're trying to have their cake and eat it. When done well the inability to go certain places feels circumstantial and makes sense, whereas I read of a journalist trying to roam outside of the prologue area and getting teleported back, which sounds pretty heavy-handed.

I mean, did they conceive of this game as an open-world game because it suited their narrative driven approach, or because they want to say they've got a Skyrim-beater?

My personal guess: they wanted a jack-of-all-trades game. Basically being a better TES with a ton of additional complexity and depth. Well, we'll see how that turns out..

 

[thislsmadness]

Seems like they're trying to have their cake and eat it. When done well the inability to go certain places feels circumstantial and makes sense, whereas I read of a journalist trying to roam outside of the prologue area and getting teleported back, which sounds pretty heavy-handed.

I mean, did they conceive of this game as an open-world game because it suited their narrative driven approach, or because they want to say they've got a Skyrim-beater?

Which preview was that? Only thing I've heard is that there is a soldier blockade in place during the prologue.

Regardless, the "edge of the world" problem is something that all open world developers have had to deal with. In some games theres just an invisible wall, others use fog or build gameworld shaped like bowls, some like GTA will just out right kill you, Skyrim literally just pops up with a message that says "You cant go there". I cant think of many open world games with an elegant design.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Yeah I was thinking of big areas but if it had fit the lore map; like all -needed for story- locations was near the main regions of the game and included in one of the big maps, I don't see how it would take away from the game. Story blockades are already there and can be used more often for pacing. Simple logic suggests: If "staging, pacing and complexity" can be done in the current big areas, couple more included locations wouldn't change anything. But game which is loyal to lore map is already there and we're hypothesizing here for nothing good for it

Imo it's not just about having different hubs. It's also when you're allowed to enter them. In an open world game you assume that you're basically free to walk around everywhere. Maybe there are some specific story-relevant locations you can't acess but the huge majority is accessible. In some games like GTA in the past you were indeed blocked from some regions from the start but regions - once opened - were never closed again. So the map just got bigger and bigger with all the more potential for complexity.

In the traditional CRPG hub-based approach you can't enter all regions at all time, quite the opposite. Often regions are only accessible once, for a certain task you have there (like probably the smaller regions in TW3) and you are not able to go there once you left them. That has one big advantage: focused level design and specfic staging of regions and events to your choices and consequences in a "realistic fashion". That's also how TW2 worked. You couldn't for example go back to Flotsam once you've reached act 3.

The basic problem with realism and believablity in a big open world game with a lot of choice and consequence is that you have to not only adjust a small region or even an amount of regions to your previous actions and decisions but basically the whole gaming world. That's where traditional open world games like Skyrim usually completely fail. You could for example kill the emperor in Skyrim. Guess what? Nobody cared. Bethesda tried to cover that problem with some predefined NPC one-line comments you hear every now and then about past events you were involved in but that's it. There is no "real" consequence to your action and I even understand it. It's just incredibly complex to let a whole, connected world react to you and your actions in a realistic fashion (like including systems like information availability and spreading, moral systems, dynamic politics and individual reactions). You can do something like that to a certain extend - like having dynamic events based on previous choices - but that's limited because of the complexity, interconnectivity and mere size of a seamless open world.

 

[frivolousam]

I agree with your points but it's the general challenge CDPR decided to face from the beginning. And we'll have to see if it's worked or not, I'm very hopeful and CDPR seems very certain. But this doesn't change my simple logic stated earlier

 

[caruga]

Which preview was that? Only thing I've heard is that there is a soldier blockade in place during the prologue.

Here, 4th page along.

That's my first move, calling upon my horse and attempting to leave the sleepy autumnal village in which the prologue begins behind for some darker, deadlier climes. Since enemies don't scale in The Witcher 3, I've every chance of running into impossibly powerful foes. But hang on – I reach a certain point on the map, not all that fair from said sleepy village, and am unceremoniously teleported back within some invisible confines. Horrors!

Perhaps they exaggerated and it is the blockade you mentioned.

 

[Vatt_ghern]

This is probably the aspect of TW3 I worry about the most. It's evidently so hard, indeed almost impossible, to create an open world game with the right balance of story and freedom of exploration, content density without resorting to copypasting and uninspired MMO quest design. Bethesda and Piranhas Bytes have been doing it for decades and they get progressively worse at it as time goes by. It seems preposterous to think that a developer without prior experience would get it right on their first try.

 

[frivolousam]

It seems preposterous to think that a developer without prior experience would get it right on their first try.

They did witcher 1 right on their first try Then they made the gameplay third person action for the first time and it turned out quite right also

 

[dragonbird]

Here, 4th page along.



Perhaps they exaggerated and it is the blockade you mentioned.

That would be the page where they also say:

'Witcher 3 not open world after all!' I imagine myself typing, and subsequently breaking the internet, before a developer patiently explains that the prologue area is closed off in this way to maintain narrative focus for a bit before you're let loose into the game proper.

He was still in the tutorial section, and the guy who who wrote the article went to the trouble of explaining why readers SHOULDN'T use it as a way of creating FUD the way you just did.

 

[caruga]

That would be the page where they also say:


He was still in the tutorial section, and the guy who who wrote the article went to the trouble of explaining why readers SHOULDN'T use it as a way of creating FUD the way you just did.

I don't have an agenda if that's what you're suggesting, I was reporting the information as I saw it. The link I cited never mentions the word 'tutorial', it said prologue. If it was the tutorial, then fair enough, but how was I supposed to know that?

 

[easeldooor]

The Witcher 3 - the first open world game that CDPR ever made.

RDR, GTA V - games made by Rockstar that has been developing open world games since, what, 2001? (already around 10 titles with add-ons plus RDR)

So no, I don't think the comparison is fair at all.

That is why I hope they learn as much as they can from Rockstar, and get their games as seamless as possible, and running as efficiently as Rockstar does.

If Rockstar can get gta5 running on a ps3, I expect CDPR to get Witcher 3 running on a pc with a gtx 760.

I want CDPR to be an industry leader, as they seem to treat gamers the right way. I think they have a real shot at it too, starting with Witcher 3.

 

[gregski]

That is why I hope they learn as much as they can from Rockstar, and get their games as seamless as possible, and running as efficiently as Rockstar does.

If Rockstar can get gta5 running on a ps3, I expect CDPR to get Witcher 3 running on a pc with a gtx 760.

I want CDPR to be an industry leader, as they seem to treat gamers the right way. I think they have a real shot at it too, starting with Witcher 3.

Sure, I wish them all the best too. And while I'm sure they will do a great job with designing the open world and ideas for filling it with great content, they still don't have that much experience in implementing such worlds.

 

[IDusan]

GTA 3 had loading screens between city areas.

Fallout 3 had loading screens between the Wasteland and Washington D.C, Megaton, Paradise Falls, etc.
The city areas were separated sections although they were all presented on one world map.

Same goes for Fallout: New Vegas. The east area under the control of the Legion had to be accessed by fast travel and loading screens. Same thing with New Vegas city, separated from the Wasteland and itself segmented into several areas.

In Skyrim, cities(if those 5 walled villages can be called cities) are separated from the main open area. Also if you had Dragonborn DLC, island of Solstheim is separated from the main region.

Here's a Novigrad & No Man's Land area in Witcher 3 compared to Skyrim:

Still think Witcher isn't an open world?

 

[coastie65]

From what I've seen, it deosn't appear to take a Linear path, thus making it a free roaming and thus pretty much open game. I the first one, you were in the Village outside of Vizima, and until you met certain criteria, you couldn't enter Vizima. Once in the city, you could not get back to the villiage, and even part of Vizima was blocked off, but you have the swamps to play in. In short, one was pretty much lnear in nature and not really free roaming. In 3, it appears that you can fast travel around the game world, once you have visited the place, which may allow for coming back t finish or start new side quests. From my take, you will have plenty of stuff to do outside of the main story quest. One thing for sure, my guess is, seeing as how it is the last of the series, CDPR is going to take it out with a bang.

 

[Vatt_ghern]

That is why I hope they learn as much as they can from Rockstar, and get their games as seamless as possible, and running as efficiently as Rockstar does.

If Rockstar can get gta5 running on a ps3, I expect CDPR to get Witcher 3 running on a pc with a gtx 760.

I want CDPR to be an industry leader, as they seem to treat gamers the right way. I think they have a real shot at it too, starting with Witcher 3.

Isn't GTA notorious for performance problems and particularly botched PC ports? Doesn't strike me as a role model for a PC-first company that CDPR claims to be.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Isn't GTA notorious for performance problems and particularly botched PC ports? Doesn't strike me as a role model for a PC-first company that CDPR claims to be.

Indeed. Not even to mention that GTY V has some horrible texture pop ups in the last gen console version and the game doesn't look even half as good as Witcher 3 even on next-gen consoles. There is at least one graphical generation between the character models for example. Also Rockstar games are typically way less complex in terms of possibilities (they are "simple" action games but no RPGs), so I don't know what to really learn there. If there is any Rockstar game CDPR could learn something from its RDR.

 

[Vatt_ghern]

Indeed. Not even to mention that GTY V has some horrible texture pop ups in the last gen console version and the game doesn't look even half as good as Witcher 3 even on next-gen consoles. There is at least one graphical generation between the character models for example. Also Rockstar games are typically way less complex in terms of possibilities (they are "simple" action games but no RPGs), so I don't know what to really learn there. If there is any Rockstar game CDPR could learn something from its RDR.

Right, and RDR is still waiting for its PC port so the jury's still out. I'm certainly looking forward to that upcoming remaster since I never played the console version.

 

[OliverDK]

I think a discussion like this is basically never ending as it depends totally on the individual point of view in regards to what is open world and what is not open world. As far a s I know there exist no real standard in that regard or at least a standard that everyone or the majority can agree upon.

But in all reality no game I know of and that exist today that can really claim to be truly open world. If that was the case I as a player should be able to walk in a straight line in any direction I choose and end up in the place I started (a circular world). To do that a game developer should have a tremendous amount of time and money to recreate a meaning full world like that because you can of course do it on a very small scale.

As such the very definition of open world game is for me flawed and misused. I much rather game designers choose to called their game a free roaming world games. And that's how I truly see TW3 - as a multi regioned free roaming world game where I decide for the vast majority of the time what to do and when to do it and a path is not forced upon me.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

And that's how I truly see TW3 - as a multi regioned free roaming world game where I decide for the vast majority of the time what to do and when to do it and a path is not forced upon me.

Well, actually that's not how TW3 will be. If TW3 is anything like the old Gothic games in terms of open world design - and various previews kind of confirmed that - the open world is more or less just an "illusion", limited and restricted by enemy levels and overall balancing. In these game you could travel everywhere in theory but in practice you can't because most enemies would just kill you in a sudden, being a few level above you and such. So these games are kind of linearily structured as well on the overall level while still offering some free roaming in detail (usually a smaller regions consists of enemies of more or less the same difficulty level). The only real difference is that there are no loading times between various regions like in a traditional hub based approach and that you can theoretically try to find you way by killing much stronger enemies (which shouldn't actually work if the game is properly balanced and there is an actual difficulty curve...).

There is a big difference between a Skyrim here in which it's more or less the same whether you go east or west first (although there are some more difficult regions but on a way smaller extend and scope) and a Gothic/TW3 in which it matters quite much whether you go east or west first because the enemies of one side will probably kill your character in a few seconds...

 

[Garrison72]

The term is not a precise definition, but suffice it to say sandbox and open world prioritize one thing - freedom. I'm glad they're taking this expanded hub approach. It allows them to depict a world with greater diversity at the cost of a simple loading screen. Comparisons to GTA aren't instructive. You don't really explore those maps so much as you live in them and navigate them. RDR may be an exception here. TW3 will be more like a TES game where you get lost exploring its wonders.