Mages, their role and power (spoilers)

[Innamoramento]

What pisses me off even more, that in a leaked files there was a hints that you can save Sheala, and she will go with Geralt and the Lodge to the last fight with the Wild Hunt. In the end I see Letho fighting at the Kaer Morhen alongside Geralt and Sile is given a 3 different ways to die, and Triss took her position as a royal mage of Kovir. That's a shame.

 

[Ortwyn]

Yes I read them (many times ).

Nice. Season of Storms too? There are some nice examples of bad mages.

Francesca and some others fighted for Nilfgaard (speaking of her, I understand her effort to create her own state, when non-humans were treated like that in some kingdoms). They just represented opposite sides and Ciri's vision started big fight.

I understand Francesca. Terranova and Fercart were bribed by Emhyr. And Vilgefortz is Vilgefortz.

But much more happened during and after Thanedd coup. For example Philippa saved Ciri's life, Triss saved Geralt's life and future members of Lodge learned big lesson about sides and states.

Triss is one of the few mages who have a good character. And Philippa saved Ciri's life, because Ciri was important.

She thought Lodge is the best for Ciri. And I think even Ciri would agree with her if there won't be that troubles in Rivia. She also confessed to Nenneke that she wasn't forced to work for Lodge, she said other sorceresses were so rational, that she couldn't have objections.

Explained by saricc.

Vilgefortz - there will be alsways some psycho on each side. Emhyr is not different, Radovid in game is the same, Henselt was nearly the same.

Vilgefortz was special, the main villain of the whole saga, true deviant. And Radovid was raised by Philippa (after she killed his father).

Philippa - I like her very much - yes she is egoist, but that is every second mage and every king (expect one or two).
But on the other hand and if I look on that from Geralt's point of view. He was pin in her ass, he went against her plans, he could ruin them etc. But what she did? When they searched for Rience together, she stopped him without hurting him and explained him, why was so important for her to do what she did. She gave him promise and she really tried to keep her word. Even at this points she is very different from many others, which just lied to Geralt, tried to kill him etc.
She could kill him many times (during hunt on Rience, on Thanedd, by the hands of Fringilla etc). But what did she do, when they argued about Rience? She quite patiently explained to him that she did it for greater good (maybe future of whole north) and after that she saved his life, when she (and Shani) cared about his wounds.

And there is more from her non-selfish acts - she was for example on Sodden hill. She just risked her life for people of North. And I understand if she wants to try it another way, when she sees how world goes to another war. She also (with Sheala and others) helped to win second war. And she gave her vote to Ciri ..

When I look on the other sides - there is more blood on their hands, there is more lies and there is just effort to gain more power for each one of them. Her attempt with Pontar and Lodge was quite different. And in list of other choices I would definitelly choose this one.

She could kill him, but why would she do it? She would infuriate Yennefer and probably Triss. They had the same enemies (Rience, Vilgefortz). Philippa is definitely no fool, she doesn't kill people without any reason. In fact it made sense that she helped him. She could have used him later. And she proved that she absolutely doesn't care about Geralt ("Who is Geralt?" as a response to Yennefer when she decided to sacrifice herself to find Vilgefortz).

Sodden Hill - she didn't risk her life for some commoners. She did it, because she was a member of the Council, the advisor of Vizimir. Her position was at stake. Her vote for Ciri was the single moment when she listened to her heart and did something good.

I would choose some other mage - Triss or Yennefer. Or Dorregaray - he is interested in saving animals and monsters, not humans, but at least he is honest. He would be quite cool character for some expansion (sidequest with saving endangered species). Marti Sodergren was good, she was saving lifes. It is a pity that some jealous soldier killed her. Tissaia de Vries had good intentions too.

Well, almost everyone is better than Philippa. Except for Vilgefortz and his team (Terranova, Fercart, Rience).

Edit: One more thing. Saskia in TW2: "Philippa is a tragic figure. That's all I can say."

Saskia about the Lodge being defeated: "That's good, though temporary. I fear we shall hear of them again."

 

[Kallelinski]

Nobody is argueing that the Brotherhood has also evil people, but the role of the whole Brotherhood is almost non-existent in the game, despite being such a big institution.

Season of Storms also showed that they even have research facilities, whether they are for good or bad is another matter.

We also know that mages and sorceresses won't disappear in the future, on the contrary it seemed to me that their role in the world was almost completely restored, even more important than before. Even a Philippa went down in history as a saint.

 

[Toyen]

Really?! Wow what a shame! I´d definitely save Síle.

I want a dlc with an option to save her so she could help fight the hunt and wear her hat once more!

---------- Updated at 09:16 PM ----------

Exactly! What a bad end for such an interesting character.

Triss herself said that she is one of the most powerful sorceresses.

 

[Ortwyn]

Partially agreed.

The game takes place during the witch hunt and the Lodge is shattered. There is no Brotherhood right now.

But I would like more interaction with individual mages. Margarita and Fringilla are present, but insignificant. Sile dies. And I can't recall many male mages from TW3. Certainly nobody on Dethmold/Carduin level. It's a shame.

Maybe in the next game from the witcher setting? Or expansions?

 

[sfinx]

Triss did it because she wanted political power, because she wanted to put the lodge in the most powerful position.

If you think so ... I think she wanted the best for Ciri.

Few arguments ... she likes her as her sister. As I remember there is nothing about Triss' desire to gain more power. On the other hand there is her confession to Nenneke - and that is the best hint to understand why she wanted that.

‘They refused me everything, ‘Triss repeated. ‘So clever, so reasonable, so logical... How could I not believe them when they explained that there are important and less important issues, and those that are less important should be given up without a second thought, to sacrifice them for the more important without a shadow of grief?
...
I cannot go madly hurrying after Ciri to help her, I cannot run like crazy to save Geralt and Yennefer. Not only that, there is a war, which you have sent your girls... A war, that Jarre fled to and I am refused the possibility to even stand on a hill. To once again stand on a hill.
...
...
Keep it this way, Triss Merigold thought happily. It is a good solution. Ciri will be safe. And eventually they’ll forget her. They let her live.
...
(and when she finally could make her own decission: )
'No, Yennefer. I will not run away. I will not hide under the skirts of the Lodge. And even though it I am ready to faint with fear, like at Sodden, I will get over it!'

Just few quotes about her true desires and motives.

She did not join Lodge just for herself or for some political power. She believed in good role of Lodge - as great tool how to control world (not just in bad meaning) and safe place for Ciri. And when it came to war or when Ciri/Yen/Geralt were in danger, she would rather fight in battle or run to help him, why she did not do that was explained well. It was not her decision, she just understood reasons of Lodge.

She also did not betray anyone, because she is not obliged to anyone. We can say Yen betrayed Lodge, when she join them, listened what they know and left them (I do not blame her, I understant it well - she is true mother of Ciri), but Triss is not and there is no betray, when she makes decision who will she join and what will she do.

---------- Updated at 08:46 AM ----------

Nice. Season of Storms too? There are some nice examples of bad mages.

This one just once.
I am not sure who do you mean. But there is always black sheep.. Yes - that crazy guy and his "experiments". You are right. But in case of Lytta - it's strange, but who can blame her? Geralt, who slept with her many times? Or her apprentice, who could easily left her, but she volunteraly decided to come back to her?

Triss is one of the few mages who have a good character. And Philippa saved Ciri's life, because Ciri was important.

:like: Yes, Triss has good character. When she could she cared about Ciri very well (on Kaer Morhen). After that she joined Lodge and followed their decision - there is nothing bad about it. Philippa maybe did that because she was important, but Geralt is not and yet she still saved his life. And in moment of total chaos on Thanedd I am not sure if she helped Ciri just because of her importance.

She could kill him, but why would she do it? She would infuriate Yennefer and probably Triss. They had the same enemies (Rience, Vilgefortz). Philippa is definitely no fool, she doesn't kill people without any reason. In fact it made sense that she helped him. She could have used him later. And she proved that she absolutely doesn't care about Geralt ("Who is Geralt?" as a response to Yennefer when she decided to sacrifice herself to find Vilgefortz).

At first point - ok, but those are just speculations. I think she knows his character and she also replied on his words about killing anyone who will hurt Ciri "I believe you.." Second point - no wonder she did not care about him. When they cooperated, she helped him, saved him. But after that? He is not her lover, not even friend, she is not obliged to him anymore so ... Who is Geralt? - for her or in their plans about whole world.

Sodden Hill - she didn't risk her life for some commoners. She did it, because she was a member of the Council, the advisor of Vizimir. Her position was at stake. Her vote for Ciri was the single moment when she listened to her heart and did something good.

It's strange how every soldier - commander or just regular man is hero, because he went to war and risked his life. Mages are somehow special?
I think there won't be problem for ther to run away, find some place, where they will stay during war and after that they will be slowly gained their former power, make conspiracy etc. But not, those very long living people risked death on some stupid hill to save North.

Yurga told it well:
Yes, we are indebted to all those sorcerers. Fourteen of them died in our defense, we the people of Sodden and Outer Rivia. Of course there were others who fought as well: warriors, nobles and peasants alike, anyone who could lay hands on a pitchfork or an ax, or even a stake... All acted with courage. Many of them died. But the sorcerers... Nothing is more natural for a warrior than to die on the field of battle, and then, that life is short anyway... But sorcerers can live as long as they like. Even so, they did not hesitate.”

and bonus note from Geralt:
“They did not hesitate,” repeated the witcher, wiping his forehead. “They did not hesitate. And me, I was in the North...”

---------- Updated at 05:06 PM ----------

Ehm ... once again long post, but there was next disappointment..

Geralt in game is little bit like a child. I was on Skellige and he can't stop complain about something to Yennefer.

"Look Yennefer, Ciri is in mortal danger, but necromancy is not good and forbidden (I am the only person who knows it, so I have to tell you..)." (Geralt probably forget that he already helped with necromancy last month.. )

"Look Yennefer, flowers are broken and this is your fault! Did you know that? Did you know what will happen after this ritual? Did you do that intentionally? Because now there is Trial of grasses flowers"

And about Philippa ... there was chance to reply "I do it (search for her) for coin" - was it sarcasm or did he mean it? Because if that is his honest answer, it's verry opposite to all that stupid sentences about neutrality and for more - he changed profession and became some stupid wich hunter,

Yennefer told me to give her that crystal, not to give it to that mad idiot, Dijkstra told me how crazy is Radovid, Vernon told me the same, I saw it with my own eyes, but I still have this option?

On the other hand - I really love Yennefer. Her sarcasm, but also her mother feelings are great.

 

[Ortwyn]

I am not sure who do you mean. But there is always black sheep.. Yes - that crazy guy and his "experiments". You are right. But in case of Lytta - it's strange, but who can blame her? Geralt, who slept with her many times? Or her apprentice, who could easily left her, but she volunteraly decided to come back to her?

Most of the mages in Rissberg were kind of bastards except for Tzara whom they killed and Pinety who rather moved to Nilfgaard. And Lytta - manipulator, lier, bitch. Her apprentice is certainly a better person but even Geralt knows it is better for her to stay with Lytta. Unfortunately - but that's typical for the witcher setting and one of the reasons we like it.

Yes, Triss has good character. When she could she cared about Ciri very well (on Kaer Morhen). After that she joined Lodge and followed their decision - there is nothing bad about it. Philippa maybe did that because she was important, but Geralt is not and yet she still saved his life. And in moment of total chaos on Thanedd I am not sure if she helped Ciri just because of her importance.

At first point - ok, but those are just speculations. I think she knows his character and she also replied on his words about killing anyone who will hurt Ciri "I believe you.." Second point - no wonder she did not care about him. When they cooperated, she helped him, saved him. But after that? He is not her lover, not even friend, she is not obliged to him anymore so ... Who is Geralt? - for her or in their plans about whole world.

Triss followed the decisions of the Lodge - and that was bad. She knew it was bad but she was in a precarious position, in fact she was a guest of Philippa. And when you disagree with Philippa you are no longer needed in the Lodge. "Who is Geralt?" is an important quote, because Philippa says that and Triss cannot object (even though she has a different opinion), because she MUST agree with Philippa. Otherwise she would be kicked out of the Lodge.

Fortunately, in the witcher games Philippa loses control over Triss. And Triss is going to be the royal advisor of Tancred and have an important position within the new Conclave. For the first time in the witcher setting Triss will be an independent and influential mage.

It seems it would be hard to convince you that Philippa is more evil than good. Just believe Saskia who knows Philippa the most, please: "Philippa is a tragic figure."

Sodden Hill - Who is Yarga? A king? A spy? A mage? No. He knows nothing about politics in the witcher setting. He believes Vilgefortz is a hero, because he is uninformed and naive. The same holds for Philippa - she is willing to risk her life just to gain more power/influence.

 

[Zyvik]

And Lytta - manipulator, lier, bitch. .

God,I hate this bitch.She's probably the only sorceress,in whom I find no positive qualities

 

[Innamoramento]

because she MUST agree with Philippa. Otherwise she would be kicked out of the Lodge.

Erm, no. No one told that someone will be kicked from Lodge because of disagreement with Phil. It is not possible just because at that time lodge was a secret organization, no one knew about, they trusted each other and if there was some disagreements it was decided by voting, like it was with Ciri. And I never heard about threats to be kicked out of the Lodge because of reasons.

Fortunately, in the witcher games Philippa loses control over Triss. And Triss is going to be the royal advisor of Tancred and have an important position within the new Conclave. For the first time in the witcher setting Triss will be an independent and influential mage

For the lore sake, it was not possible. Triss was always loyal to the Lodge by her free will, by her "mage moral" that was more important to her, than other things. By the lore Sile never leaves Kovir (why Reds even made it possible? It's like she became slightly retarded all of sudden), she is respected there for a long time and even while witch hunts happen in Redania. It bothers me, that Devs killed off most smart, logical and wise sorceress, who should have had a brilliant future of great misstress of magic, and gave her hard earned position to Triss, who is nothing in Kovir.

As for evil or good Philippa (and other Lodge members) - she is none. She is all that shades of gray, as most of the characters of Sapkowski universe. If you are smart enough and read the books with paying attention, you can understand her reasons. My personal opinion - Philippa's future plans for the Ciri was the most adequate of the all. Maybe if Ciri was not so light headed teenager, she could understand the importance of her role and that this position can be benefit for all, but she is not, she wants to be a witcher and la-la-la, screw the future and the destiny of the world. It's her decision and her destiny to do what she did.

 

[Ortwyn]

Erm, no. No one told that someone will be kicked from Lodge because of disagreement with Phil. It is not possible just because at that time lodge was a secret organization, no one knew about, they trusted each other and if there was some disagreements it was decided by voting, like it was with Ciri. And I never heard about threats to be kicked out of the Lodge because of reasons.

OK, she will become the outsider of the Lodge and maybe in the future she wouldn't be invited for the next important meeting. Yes, they voted, but Philippa was always the unofficial leader of the Lodge.

Anyway, there is a nice conversation between Philippa+Triss and Yennefer using megascope in the Tower of the Swallow which best explains:

1) Triss-Philippa dynamics - Triss has a good heart but she doesn't oppose Philippa even though she knows that it is wrong. She is ashamed and begs Yenn to forgive her.
2) the Lodge's (=Philippa's) intentions - Yennefer must remain to be known as a traitor, because it serves the Lodge's interests. The Lodge wants to manipulate Ciri. And Philippa makes a decision in the Lodge's name. This is quite consistent with TW3 where Philippa says she is not interested in the Lodge unless she has a deciding vote.
3) Philippa's care for Geralt - It is no longer important if Geralt lives or dies. Philippa gives a shit about it. Triss says nothing, as usual.

I am glad that in the games Triss changed, gained courage and was less dependent on Eilhart. I am a Triss-fan and will never forget what Philippa did to her.

For the lore sake, it was not possible. Triss was always loyal to the Lodge by her free will, by her "mage moral" that was more important to her, than other things. By the lore Sile never leaves Kovir (why Reds even made it possible? It's like she became slightly retarded all of sudden), she is respected there for a long time and even while witch hunts happen in Redania. It bothers me, that Devs killed off most smart, logical and wise sorceress, who should have had a brilliant future of great misstress of magic, and gave her hard earned position to Triss, who is nothing in Kovir.

As for evil or good Philippa (and other Lodge members) - she is none. She is all that shades of gray, as most of the characters of Sapkowski universe. If you are smart enough and read the books with paying attention, you can understand her reasons. My personal opinion - Philippa's future plans for the Ciri was the most adequate of the all. Maybe if Ciri was not so light headed teenager, she could understand the importance of her role and that this position can be benefit for all, but she is not, she wants to be a witcher and la-la-la, screw the future and the destiny of the world. It's her decision and her destiny to do what she did.

By her "free will" you mean?

Philippa is willing to do almost everything for a greater good. But greater good for who? The world? The Northern realms? The magic users? Philippa Eilhart?

And in the end her plans usually fail and only bad deeds remain. A tragic figure indeed.

 

[Innamoramento]

OK, she will become the outsider of the Lodge and maybe in the future she wouldn't be invited for the next important meeting.

How so? Triss was always was equal member of the Lodge. No one treated her bad or disagreed with her, no one wanted her out of the Lodge, and no one thought that Triss is less important than other 9 of the company. They have an agreement and if there will be controversy they will work it out one or another way. They all are adequate and experienced women.

I am a Triss-fan and will never forget what Philippa did to her.

I can not recall, which horrible things Phil did to the precious baby Triss. They were close, and clearly has some sexual affairs with each other.

 

[Ortwyn]

How so? Triss was always was equal member of the Lodge. No one treated her bad or disagreed with her, no one wanted her out of the Lodge, and no one thought that Triss is less important than other 9 of the company. They have an agreement and if there will be controversy they will work it out one or another way. They all are adequate and experienced women.

Is this some misunderstanding? I am saying what would have happened if Triss had disagreed with Philippa. If she had sided with Yennefer back then.

Philippa is more experienced and a skilled manipulator. If you believe that Triss wasn't less important than Philippa...

I can not recall, which horrible things Phil did to the precious baby Triss. They were close, and clearly has some sexual affairs with each other.

She had a very bad influence on her. And yes, they were close (and to some extent still are) and I don't like it. Eilhart cannot be trusted.

 

[Zyvik]

She had a very bad influence on her. And yes, they were close (and to some extent still are) and I don't like it. Eilhart cannot be trusted.

Triss is not a child.She's a grown woman and should be able to think with her own head and make her own decisions.

 

[Innamoramento]

I am saying what would have happened if Triss had disagreed with Philippa. If she had sided with Yennefer back then.

Well, it did not happened, so we do not know for sure what would have said Philippa on what would she and others do. Triss stayed loyal.

She had a very bad influence on her. And yes, they were close (and to some extent still are) and I don't like it. Eilhart cannot be trusted.

LOL.
1. Triss is a grown up woman, who is at least 50 years old. She can decide what to do with her life and will it be all right to listen to big bad Phil.
2. They were close and Triss liked it. That's all what matter.
3. Philippa is smart and never betrayed the members of the lodge. Trust is what brought the Lodge together.

 

[sfinx]

Complaining about mages ... 3rd part

Finally, I finished game. During this part of game I was happy and than I was sad. Why so..

I like so much that part, where you can save sorceresses and help them. Once again I could raid and kill off fortress of those fanatics :clap: (again - not problem for one witcher, but big deal for several mages? ) ... but still - that gave me a huge satisfaction. I could also find Phil, I could save Rita and than there was strange moment about Fringilla (really don't know what was going on in that mission - was she really a prisoner? why I could not save her? why I had to sneak up there?). But in general, that was the good part of the story.

But than there came stupid dialog options and once again Geralt's whining.. I could bow in front of dictator, who wants to control whole world and brought it to the third world war for that reason. I could cooperate with complete mad idiot, who entertain himself with tortures and murders of people/mages/non-humans. I could also be quite friendly to Aen elle, who I suspect from ulterior motives and decide to do other strange moves.
But I can't be nice to Philippa and can't stop complaining about her. I can even disagree with myself, when I already told, I don't believe to Avallac'h and than I can say to Philippa I do, but I can't decide for her..?

There is Dijkstra, for example - a chronic liar. I fighted with him in books, I despise spies, I argued with him many times, but still I can murder king for him and help him to become ruler of Novigrad. (I almost forget I have to sacrifice my good friends and quite honest people to do this, but that is probably OK).. Strange is - there are forced answers which show me how Geralt hates Philippa and Lodge, because she intrigued to get her own state to stop Nilfgaard. She used Geralt. And now ... Dijkstra intrigued to get his own state to stop Nilfgaard. He used Geralt, but Geralt can "vote" for him to become ruler.. Nice...

And the ending? What was going on with Philippa? She has great plans, she is quite rational and mistress of politics and now? I smell there lack of ideas and big hurry in making of endings, when I heard that she wants Yennefer to move out, Geralt to go with her and the same for Ciri and she will become an advisor for Emhyr? First thing - I don't think Yen was advisor, she just used him during search for Ciri and the same stands for his relation to her. Second thing - what she would be doing there without Ciri, when that was main job for Yennefer? Third thing - how she would become advisor? - Just because she was pardoned, she will be in the highest politics of Nilfgaard? She is not crazy and she is very clever, so I think this is just error of devs, who wanted her to say "I have to rule everything and everyone" - maybe she would like to, but as I said, she is not stupid and naive. Also what about Lodge - she offered Ciri to become a member, she helped Geralt with Ciri, and when Lodge was nearly resored, she said: "I don't want Ciri and I will move to Nilfgaard?".

Maybe I got that wrong and I just did not understand it properly, but where is ending where would be said what happened to mages/sorceresses/Lodge? There is even outcome for one godling in Novigrad, but not a word about one of the most important sides?

Howgh

---------- Updated at 09:46 AM ----------

BTW: Thanks for all posts in this thread and thanks for all votes in poll. Results turns out well so I changed my mind and I will consider this poll as great example of public opinion ..

 

[CTPhipps]

I am a big fan of the Conclave but think of the Lodge as basically Phillipa's personal Illumanati.

If I was a Mage in the Witcher world, this is what I would do to Phillipa and with the same words.

[video=youtube;9LEn-Nlr86c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LEn-Nlr86c[/video]

On a more serious note, CD_Projekt Red wrote themselves into a corner with AOK because the new writers clearly didn't want to take that route with the Lodge of Sorcerers. After Sabrina's actions at the Pontar Valley where thousands of innocent people were heinously murdered to support Phillipa's grand ambitions as well as the mind-control of Saskia--the short version is my Geralt wanted to destroy them and thought he did by informing the Kings of the North they were behind it all.
There wasn't harsh enough words for Phillipa or her gang of psychopaths.

"I am only able to use a few signs but to the Eternal Fire, I am a mage, so I will say it simple for you: You, Phillipa Eilhart, are the worst of us."
Vigelfortz has NOTHING on her.

And then, suddenly, Geralt is acting like the Lodge is a bunch of old friends in the next game.

I'm like, "No one deserves to die like Sile, dude, but they are bad people."

CD_Red: But they were Neutral to Good-ish in the books.

Me: The story has moved on!

 

[Innamoramento]

It's a shame the story moved on this way. The smart and strong-willed sorceresses made into flat willains. All their pre-history is forgotten, they are burned and tortured, the fact, that after 1276, the Lodge will became strong and greatly respected is completely forgotten. It drives me mad, when I think about how I can side with Djikstra the criminal and Radovid the madman, but I can not complete book canon, and bring the Lodge to glory.

 

[CTPhipps]

It's a shame the story moved on this way. The smart and strong-willed sorceresses made into flat willains. All their pre-history is forgotten, they are burned and tortured, the fact, that after 1276, the Lodge will became strong and greatly respected is completely forgotten. It drives me mad, when I think about how I can side with Djikstra the criminal and Radovid the madman, but I can not complete book canon, and bring the Lodge to glory.

Book canon Lodge didn't engage in wholesale indiscriminate mass-murder.

The problem is the games actually DO let you revive the lodge.

Yennefer does it by getting them all to side with Nilfgaard, which is a whole other kettle of fish.

 

[Charcharo]

At this point it would be easier to treat every game as separate canon...

 

[CTPhipps]

@Charcharo

It feels like that, doesn't it?

Which do you guys prefer, Good Lodge or Evil Lodge?