Reasons of State quest, how would you want it to redone?

[KingHochmeister]

Reasons of State quest, how would you want it to redone?

I have seen a lot of threads discussing that CD Projekt Red should redo the final part of that quest regarding Djisktra and I agree completely, but I wanted to make a thread dedicated just for that because I feel it was overlooked (even though I really want more of the Wild Hunt in the main game, especially Eredin).

Now I do not expect CDPR to look for fan suggestions if they decide to redo some quests in the future, as they originally had a vision yet development circumstances change and things either have to be cut or changed drastically to fit the game, but if they do decide to make an Enhanced Edition or some sort, here is what I would want to happen in that quest.


The only simple changes I want:

1- Just have the damn wine (or vodka) poisoned by Djikstra beforehand.

I found it really weird that Djikstra did not do this in the first place, one would think the former chief of Intelligence of arguably the best northern intelligence force during his time would not forget to do such a thing.


2- Give an option to the player to make Thaler, Roche and Ves hold off on drinking, as something is not right, sure, Geralt has his witcher senses so he can sniff out poison, but you made the White Frost an impending doom in the game, there can be some kind of Zerrikanian venom that Djikstra saw in Zerrikania that has no odor whatsoever or smells just like wine, it's Zerrikania, they have tse tse flies and giant ass spiders, anything can be found there.

Preferably this dialogue.


3- Now you have an interesting position, Djikstra shows up, does his Macbeth scene.

And if they drank the venom, the Temerians start to die, but Geralt has his superhuman immunity, so he has severe pain but survives and is disorientated, then Djikstra says this line (of course some dialogue lines should be changed, like: "I knew your Witcher metabolism would help" or something of those lines).

Then you can either leave or fight Djikstra's guards, however, because you are poisoned, you are disorientated and your Vitality (health) is lowered to half, that would make sense for Djikstra because if he anticipated that Geralt drank the wine that he would be far less capable or killing all his men, unlike in the original version of the quest.

With that said, if Geralt tells them to hold off on drinking the poison, the player is rewarded for it and they survive, and the quest resumes back to its original state, with just Djikstra saying that he is impressed that Geralt was perceptive enough to not drink the wine, then you have the option of either leaving or helping the Temerians, just with having more of Djikstra's guards in the fight.

So now you have three outcomes that correspond to what the game originally intended:

1- If both Djikstra and the Temerians die, the truce is already signed, so Nilfgaard advances and wins the war.

2- If the Temerians die and Djikstra lives, he takes control of Redania and Nilfgaard starts to lose the war.

3- Djikstra dies and the Temerians live, and things go like the first outcome.

And with those changes, Djikstra does not lose his IQ levels like he did with the original version of this quest.

Now I know there are some possible problems, like why would Geralt let Djikstra live if he did poison his "friends"? but you can just stay neutral and let Geralt's friends die anyway in the original version, I felt this was a compromise in order to keep Djikstra's character intact.

Now what are your suggestions? Keep in mind they have to be realistic, CDPR cannot change the entire quest from scratch, but add to or change some moments.

 

[Riven-Twain]

It's a fine, plausible, alternative, and seems to better fit Dijkstra's low cunning. Commendations for ingenuity.

 

[Boromir2015]

@KingHochmeister As @RivenII said

It's a fine, and plausible, alternative.

... a very good and well argumented idea... I support it!!!

 

[Sam2305]

I would fix just the last part. For example: Dijkstra tries to cheat Roche, Ves and Thaler but, at the end, Geralt change the situacion and force an agreement. The war continues, Nilfgaard is defeated and the North is share between Redania and Temeria

 

[dragonbird]

The only thing I'd want to see is the line removed where Djikstra threatens Roche and the others.
He's welcome to go ahead and kill them after Geralt leaves.

 

[SuperHylianHero]

I want a third option where we make peace with Djikstra and Veron Roche. I also want there to be Temerian Soliders all over Novigrad when you complete this mission. It breaks the immerssion when you see Redanian Soliders everywhere chanting, "long live Radivod". That's the only change I want.

 

[sv3672]

I would fix just the last part. For example: Dijkstra tries to cheat Roche, Ves and Thaler but, at the end, Geralt change the situacion and force an agreement. The war continues, Nilfgaard is defeated and the North is share between Redania and Temeria

The biggest issue is implementing a Dijkstra vs. Nilfgaard choice in a less contrived way. Of course, there is also the option of removing one of the endings (it may even be the case that originally the only choice was between Radovid and Nilfgaard, and the awkward ending of the quest was added later in hurry), but I doubt CDPR would want to do that.

 

[Sam2305]

but I doubt CDPR would want to do that.

They don't. But it doesn't mean that is impossible. It would only require a few more dialogues and some new slides explaining the new endings. It would be much more problematic if they would have created a post-end world with our choices but they don't so, it's just that: some new dialogues an some new slides.

But I share your opinion. They would consider all these demands if the game was selling bad but it's not the case

---------- Updated at 01:14 PM ----------

I want a third option where we make peace with Djikstra and Veron Roche. I also want there to be Temerian Soliders all over Novigrad when you complete this mission. It breaks the immerssion when you see Redanian Soliders everywhere chanting, "long live Radivod". That's the only change I want.

It would be AWESOME but it's not likely

 

[KingHochmeister]

I want a third option where we make peace with Djikstra and Veron Roche.

Dijkstra tries to cheat Roche, Ves and Thaler but, at the end, Geralt change the situacion and force an agreement. The war continues, Nilfgaard is defeated and the North is share between Redania and Temeria

Doubt Djikstra would settle for that, especially when the one presenting the argument is a man unfamiliar with (or rather detests) politics.

 

[Sam2305]

Doubt Djikstra would settle for that, especially when the one presenting the argument is a man unfamiliar with (or rather detests) politics.

Who says that it's Geralt who presents the argument? I was thinking on Thaler. And again: the Geralt from the games is different from the one of the books. I could be perfectly him

 

[CoconutChriss]

I really like your ideas, KingHochmeister. These changes would make the quest finish on a much more logical note and save Dijkstra's integrity.

All for it!

:cheers:

 

[KingHochmeister]

Who says that it's Geralt who presents the argument? I was thinking on Thaler. And again: the Geralt from the games is different from the one of the books. I could be perfectly him

The problem is that Djikstra is too patriotic to do that, they already sacrificed Aedirn and Lyria for Temeria, which Djikstra already lamented, also he would not pass an opportunity to make Redania the strongest, especially if he leads it.

But yes, I see your point, don't get me wrong, but what possibly would Thaler say that would convince Djikstra to stop his plans? Even if Geralt helped Djikstra get his treasure back would he accept Geralt's argument? I don't think so.

 

[Sam2305]

The problem is that Djikstra is too patriotic to do that, they already sacrificed Aedirn and Lyria for Temeria, which Djikstra already lamented, also he would not pass an opportunity to make Redania the strongest, especially if he leads it.

But yes, I see your point, don't get me wrong, but what possibly would Thaler say that would convince Djikstra to stop his plans? Even if Geralt helped Djikstra get his treasure back would he accept Geralt's argument? I don't think so.

That is better to have the temeria guerrillas at his side than against him. They are causing a lot of problems to the nilfgardiaans and could be the same for the redanians too. Also. Dijkstra could be patriotic, but he values more his life and, if the character was properly writteng, he will never risk himself instead of making an agreement: Redania keeps Kaedwen and Temeria what is left. This could be a better solution if Anais was in the game. Anyway, is more plausible that the current state of the quest

 

[KingHochmeister]

That is better to have the temeria guerrillas at his side than against him. They are causing a lot of problems to the nilfgardiaans and could be the same for the redanians too. Also. Dijkstra could be patriotic, but he values more his life and, if the character was properly writteng, he will never risk himself instead of making an agreement: Redania keeps Kaedwen and Temeria what is left. This could be a better solution if Anais was in the game. Anyway, is more plausible that the current state of the quest

Hmm, if Temeria would submit to Redania as a vassal state, could happen, but Redanians and Temerians (hell, all the north) were never really allies, before the first Nilfgaardian army invaded the North, Temeria and Redania had an economical war that nearly destroyed Redania's economy, Djikstra looks to the future, after the Nilfgaardians are pushed back, the Temerians would want more influence and would be an obstacle to him, the reason why Emhyr agreed with them is that even if the Temerians would revolt later, they would be quickly crushed, but it would prove more troublesome for Djikstra later.

Having Anais would also work, marrying her to Djikstra maybe, but the quest in its current state would not work as you would want it, unless they introduce new characters that I doubt will be introduced if they decide to redo the final part of this quest.

 

[Sam2305]

Hmm, if Temeria would submit to Redania as a vassal state, could happen, but Redanians and Temerians (hell, all the north) were never really allies, before the first Nilfgaardian army invaded the North, Temeria and Redania had an economical war that nearly destroyed Redania's economy, Djikstra looks to the future, after the Nilfgaardians are pushed back, the Temerians would want more influence and would be an obstacle to him, the reason why Emhyr agreed with them is that even if the Temerians would revolt later, they would be quickly crushed, but it would prove more troublesome for Djikstra later.

Having Anais would also work, marrying her to Djikstra maybe, but the quest in its current state would not work as you would want it, unless they introduce new characters that I doubt will be introduced if they decide to redo the final part of this quest.

The situation could force to this solution because there are just a few choices: Dijkstra could confront Geralt and die, or he could let Roche and Ves lives and the truce is signed. A mid-term solutions is needed a could be the one that I'm suggesting. I know that there are differences between Temeria and Redania (even wars), but the situation could be considered as desperate. We forget one crucial thing: Dijkstra is a peasant, he can only guarantee his control over Redania because he has Radovid's son. Probably Adda's son too. And without Anais he is the heir to the Temerian Throne too so, there is a solution where the North could win the war without distroying Temeria.

Honestly, I'm defending this argument because I think that is unfair for the fans of the previous games: we "fought" for Temeria in the second game and having to choose between a vassal state or anhilition it's cruel imo

 

[KingHochmeister]

Honestly, I'm defending this argument because I think that is unfair for the fans of the previous games: we "fought" for Temeria in the second game and having to choose between a vassal state or anhilition it's cruel imo

Well the Witcher's world is cruel, that is what makes it so appealing, you rescue an impoverished desolate village from a monster, yet it will still be an impoverished desolate village after the monster is gone.

But I see your point, but let's be honest, there is no other way, even if Anais was in Witcher 3 Temeria would only be able to settle to be a vassal state to a power stronger than its own.

 

[Sam2305]

Well the Witcher's world is cruel, that is what makes it so appealing, you rescue an impoverished desolate village from a monster, yet it will still be an impoverished desolate village after the monster is gone.

But I see your point, but let's be honest, there is no other way, even if Anais was in Witcher 3 Temeria would only be able to settle to be a vassal state to a power stronger than its own.

Temeria has been recently destroyed. Given this fact, I understand that is very unlikely to see it restored by itself. But Dijkstra could help. We should keep one thing in mind: the redanian army is big and well equiped but. even with this, Nilfgaard's army is better. Redania needs of more troops and the temerian guerrilla could fit perfectly. The only reason which explains why Redania would win the war is because Radovid is a tactical genius (doesn't make much sense with the character). Without him, there is a lack of a proper explanation about how Dijkstra (who is no general) will win the war. With Roche by his side could be posible. Otherwise, Dijkstra could pursue his objective and try to kill Roche, Ves and Thaler but he would lose his head. Thaler could say all these and then you have a new agreement. You maybe don't like but don't tell that is impossible.

And the Witcher can be cruel but, until this game, normally it used to had consistency. And saving the future queen of Temeria in TW2 in order to avoid a civil war and prepare Temeria for the upcoming war just for nothing doesn't make much more sense. That's why I think Temeria deserves a better ending

 

[TheImpZA]

I would fix just the last part. For example: Dijkstra tries to cheat Roche, Ves and Thaler but, at the end, Geralt change the situacion and force an agreement. The war continues, Nilfgaard is defeated and the North is share between Redania and Temeria

I like the rough outline of this idea. The whole conflict situation doesn't make sense at all. There should be no physical conflict incited by Roche or Dijkstra. None of the conspirators would fight each other after they just conspired to kill a King, and are running away from his guards. They all know how stupid that would be. A poisoning is plausible, but I believe that Dijkstra is above that. He respects Roche and Thaler too much, they're patriots like him. If he's going to kill them, he'll do it with his bare hands.

These are my, somewhat plausible ideas for the quest. I think that there should be 3 major options. I assume that Radovid removed Adda from the equation, considering he had Anais who the Temerian nobles like more than Adda.

1.1 Violence almost breaks out. Roche and Thaler are angry at what Dijkstra is suggesting, but logically they also know what he could do. It takes a lengthy and difficult discussion (perhaps weapons are drawn at one point) but they establish new plans. Dijkstra doesn't immediately become Chancellor / King of Redania, but he could supervise the New Northern Army and Intelligence alongside Roche, Thaler and/or Natalis (if he's still alive), which causes a string of defeats for Nilfgaard. There's no way that Dijkstra would be able to rally the entire North by himself. If he wants the remnants of the Temerian army, he needs Roche and Thaler.

Spoiler

Off topic, but here's where I wish the Scoia'tael were still in the game. An uneasy truce is formed with Iorveth and Isengrim. They help in the assassination attempt. Perhaps Isengrim tries to betray the alliance, he can't let go of what's happened to him in the past and is killed in the conflict. His body is found, and officially, he is blamed for Radovid's assassination. There are references to dialogue between Roche and Iorveth from the leaked files, so it's not too far out there to say that at least they could have worked together. Because this choice can't be all good, racial tensions escalate and a full on pogrom takes place in Novigrad, which kind of happens in the base game anyway. Once Nilfgaard is pushed back, the remaining free elves of the North are given Upper Aedirn to finish what Saskia and Iorveth started in TW2. This fits with what Iorveth says in TW2, that he would never go and live with sterile elves in Dol Blathanna. Racial tensions slowly decrease over the next few decades.

1.1 Let's say that all the Scoia'tael have gone to Dol Blathanna, like in the base game. After achieving acclaim from the Redanian nobles for pushing back the invaders, Dijkstra returns to his original role of Head of Intelligence, where he supervises the creation a joint Temeria / Redania state with young Anais as Queen, whom he mentors. Perhaps this is already decided beforehand the in the talks I mentioned earlier. This would also require the Baraoness to mention her own daughter when she sees Geralt in Novigrad, as new players would not know who Anais is. The Northerners know that Nilfgaard will attack again in the future, and when they do the North will be stronger as a united force. She was going to be forced to marry Radovid anyway to join the two states. She essentially becomes a hybrid of Foltest and Vizimir with the country focussing on industrialisation and healthy commerce. No more pogroms and witch hunts.

1.2 Lets say Anais is dead (not sure how, why would Radovid kill her?). After pushing back the invaders, Dijkstra becomes Chancellor of Redania and incorporates Kaedwen into Redania. The Temerian nobles elect a new royal line, the continuation of the plot line from TW2. Without Anais, Roche is hanged for the regicide of King Henselt. He kills him in TW2 and that should be the canon for TW3, unless the Iorveth content is ever reintrodued or a better save import is implemented. If Henselt could stand toe-to-toe with Saskia, there's no way that Radovid would be able to kill him in open combat. Dijkstra plays a small part in this, to appease the Kaedweni's considering he just annexed them. Ves becomes the new commander of the Blue Stripes, and never forgets what Vernon did for her. What's left of Aedirn (should Prince Stennis and Saskia both be dead - we don't know 100% about their fates) is incorporated into Temeria as Dijkstra has enough issues dealing with the Kaedweni nobles.

Either way, Emhyr is killed by domestic agents. Emperor Voorhis takes his place, or Ciri could also become Empress, should she have the convo with Emhyr beforehand.

2. Geralt does a sting of aggressive actions which incites the violence. Dijkstra has played him again. He's old, he's tired and he hates politics. He drank some potions during the assassination fight, his urge for bloodlust, which is mentioned in the books as a side effect of potion use, is high. Geralt hears Dijkstra's soldiers approaching and makes the first move, and Roche and the Temerians are dragged into the conflict. Nilfgaard wins the war, and Temeria becomes a vassal with Anais as Queen. This could happen differently, perhaps Dijkstra does attack or attempts to poison someone, but regardless, the outcome of Dijkstra dying and Temeria becoming a vassal is the second ending for this quest.

3. Geralt stays out of everything. Radovid is either assassinated regardless by the conspirators, by other enemies domestic or he dies in open combat. The Golden Sun looms over all the North. Several areas surrender, and Nilfgaard achieves total victory. Roche and Ves die fighting a guerilla war for Temerian independence, and Thaler moves in with his Rock Troll buddies. Kovir is the only independent realm left in the North.

 

[Sam2305]

I like the rough outline of this idea. The whole conflict situation doesn't make sense at all. There should be no physical conflict incited by Roche or Dijkstra. None of the conspirators would fight each other after they just conspired to kill a King, and are running away from his guards. They all know how stupid that would be. A poisoning is plausible, but I believe that Dijkstra is above that. He respects Roche and Thaler too much, they're patriots like him. If he's going to kill them, he'll do it with his bare hands.

These are my, somewhat plausible ideas for the quest. I think that there should be 3 major options. I assume that Radovid removed Adda from the equation, considering he had Anais who the Temerian nobles like more than Adda.

1.1 Violence almost breaks out. Roche and Thaler are angry at what Dijkstra is suggesting, but logically they also know what he could do. It takes a lengthy and difficult discussion (weapons are drawn at one point) but they establish new plans. Dijkstra doesn't immediately become Chancellor / King of Redania, but he could supervise the New Northern Army and Intelligence alongside Roche, Thaler and/or Natalis (if he's still alive), which causes a string of defeats for Nilfgaard. There's no way that Dijkstra would be able to rally the entire North. If he want to remnants of the Temerian army, he needs Roche and Thaler.

Spoiler

Off topic, but here's where I wish the Scoia'tael were still in the game. An uneasy truce is formed with Iorveth and Isengrim. They help in the assassination attempt. Perhaps Isengrim tries to betray the alliance, he can't let go of what's happened to him in the past and is killed in the conflict. His body is found, and officially, he is blamed for Radovid's assassination. There are references to dialogue between Roche and Iorveth from the leaked files, so it's not too far out there to say that at least they could have worked together. Because this choice can't be all good, racial tensions escalate and a full on pogrom takes place in Novigrad, which kind of happens in the base game anyway. Once Nilfgaard is pushed back, the remaining free elves of the North are given Upper Aedirn to finish what Saskia and Iorveth started in TW2. This fits with what Iorveth says in TW2, that he would never go and live with sterile elves in Dol Blathanna. Racial tensions slowly decrease over the next few decades.

1.1 Let's say that all the Scoia'tael have gone to Dol Blathanna, like in the base game. After achieving acclaim from the Redanian nobles for pushing back the invaders, Dijkstra returns to his original role of Head of Intelligence, where he supervises the creation a joint Temeria / Redania state with young Anais as Queen, whom he mentors. Perhaps this is already decided beforehand the in the talks I mentioned earlier. This would also require the Baraoness to mention her own daughter when she sees Geralt in Novigrad, as new players would not know who Anais is. The Northerners know that Nilfgaard will attack again in the future, and when they do the North will be stronger as a united force. She was going to be forced to marry Radovid anyway to join the two states. She essentially becomes a hybrid of Foltest and Vizimir with the country focussing on industrialisation and healthy commerce. No more pogroms and witch hunts.

1.2 Lets say Anais is dead (not sure how, why would Radovid kill her?). After pushing back the invaders, Dijkstra becomes Chancellor of Redania and incorporates Kaedwen into Redania. The Temerian nobles elect a new royal line, the continuation of the plot line from TW2. Without Anais, Roche is hanged for the regicide of King Henselt. He kills him in TW2 and that should be the canon for TW3, unless the Iorveth content is ever reintrodued or a better save import is implemented. If Henselt could stand toe-to-toe with Saskia, there's no way that Radovid would be able to kill him in open combat. Dijkstra plays a small part in this, to appease the Kaedweni's considering he just annexed them. Ves becomes the new commander of the Blue Stripes, and never forgets what Vernon did for her. What's left of Aedirn (should Prince Stennis and Saskia both be dead - we don't know 100% about their fates) is incorporated into Temeria as Dijkstra has enough issues dealing with the Kaedweni nobles.

Either way, Emhyr is killed by domestic agents. Emperor Voorhis takes his place, or Ciri could also become Empress, should she have the convo with Emhyr beforehand.

2. Geralt does a sting of aggressive actions which incites the violence. Dijkstra has played him again. He's old, he's tired and he hates politics. He drank some potions during the assassination fight, his urge for bloodlust, which is mentioned in the books as a side effect of potion use, is high. Geralt hears Dijkstra's soldiers approaching and makes the first move, and Roche and the Temerians are dragged into the conflict. Nilfgaard wins the war, and Temeria becomes a vassal with Anais as Queen. This could happen differently, perhaps Dijkstra does attack or attempts to poison someone, but regardless, the outcome of Dijkstra dying and Temeria becoming a vassal is the second ending for this quest.

3. Geralt stays out of everything. Radovid is either assassinated regardless by the conspirators, by other enemies domestic or he dies in open combat. The Golden Sun looms over all the North. Several areas surrender, and Nilfgaard achieves total victory. Roche and Ves die fighting a guerilla war for Temerian independence, and Thaler moves in with his Rock Troll buddies. Kovir is the only independent realm left in the North.

These options you just mentioned are really interesting but, in the end, they are useless. I think that everyone can see that CDPR doesn't care for our complaints and suggestions about the game and it's not probable to see changes in the main game and only small modifications in the upcoming expansion (as they said, they will create much more charismatic enemies in order to satisfy to those who complained about the Wild Hunt but they are not going to fix the Wild Hunt)


I completely agree with you in that, having Anais or the Scoiatel (including Iorveth) it would had been much more interestint and it could have given us much more options and political outcomes. And that's why they removed them. Too complicated for a new player. Better have only two simple factions: a Roche who is completely different from the one of the previous game and Dijkstra. CDPR is not going to make any changes

 

[TheImpZA]

These options you just mentioned are really interesting but, in the end, they are useless. I think that everyone can see that CDPR doesn't care for our complaints and suggestions about the game and it's not probable to see changes in the main game and only small modifications in the upcoming expansion (as they said, they will create much more charismatic enemies in order to satisfy to those who complained about the Wild Hunt but they are not going to fix the Wild Hunt)


I completely agree with you in that, having Anais or the Scoiatel (including Iorveth) it would had been much more interestint and it could have given us much more options and political outcomes. And that's why they removed them. Too complicated for a new player. Better have only two simple factions: a Roche who is completely different from the one of the previous game and Dijkstra. CDPR is not going to make any changes

I hear what you're saying, but I'll reserve judgement until CDPR comes out and says: "That's a wrap, we're not doing anything more with TW3".

Many (I'm assuming) people inside the company are 'hardcore' fans, just like us. I'm sure that there are a lot of individual developers, designers, artists and producers who want to do more, but they need to have permission from the higher ups. Knowing that each quest goes through a peer review system, I'm sure that there have already been debates and arguments about cut content, or content that isn't as good as it could be. As I said, until they come out and say that they're done, I'll still keep some hope for improvements to existing content.