Why Ciri Nova is in the game?

[Jeydra]

if you have to start round 1 you will most often loose with equal cards or win with one card down. then you drypass to even it out again (doesn't work when the enemy has this disgusting elf card).
if you win the coin flip you will always just have to react to your opponents moves which means you will often win with equal cards or loose with one card more.
so if you have card advantage in round 2 after loosing is depending on the coin flip very often.

You're playing it wrong then. Next time you lose the coin flip, just drypass round 1 and you'll make it to round two up a card. Losing round one on equal cards is never something that's "supposed" to happen and means either you've been making too many low tempo plays, or your deck needs more high-tempo options.

I'll wager that in games between high-level players, game ones that result in one side winning on equal cards make up less than 20%, possibly even less than 10%, of the games.

 

[balKilen]

You're playing it wrong then. Next time you lose the coin flip, just drypass round 1 and you'll make it to round two up a card. Losing round one on equal cards is never something that's "supposed" to happen and means either you've been making too many low tempo plays, or your deck needs more high-tempo options.

I'll wager that in games between high-level players, game ones that result in one side winning on equal cards make up less than 20%, possibly even less than 10%, of the games.

i didn't say you will most often lose with equal cards. i said "you will most often lose with equal cards OR win with one card down".
sure losing with equal cards is a bad scenario for a round 1 starter. but this scenario never happens to a coin flip winner. it happens way less often at least.

"Losing round one on equal cards is never something that's "supposed" to happen"

thats true. but if it happens it mostly happens to the coin flip loser since the winner can always decide if he can slap enough points on the board to win without losing too many cards.

 

[Jeydra]

i didn't say you will most often loose with equal cards. i said "you will most often lose with equal cards OR win with one card down".

"Losing round one on equal cards is never something that's "supposed" to happen"

so what you are basically saying is that if you lose the coin flip you have to do high tempo plase to either make your opponent lose interest in continuing playing round 1, which results in you winning with one card down as i said, or to make him spend more then 1 card to make up the difference so you do not loose with equal cards.

You said "lose with equal cards" is one of the most likely outcomes, along with "win one card down". I said that's incorrect. The most likely outcomes are "lose up one card" and "win one card down". Yes if you lose the coin flip you have to do high tempo plays. You must stay ahead of the opponent after every play. If it doesn't look like you can - e.g. you're playing against reveal, they still have their leader, and they have two Mangonels that you can't answer in play - it's high time to bail out by passing.

Losing round one on equal cards is very close to losing the game. You have to try to avoid it. If your opponent spams spies you might not be able to, but that's another story.

 

[deuzerre]

Someone on the first page suggested that her ability would be a truce:
I beleive this to probably be the best solution, or a mix of other solutions (Truce: & value=Number of cards in deck?)

 

[orian34]

A ciri nova deck is manageable, since they can't rely as much on good bronze synergy cards. And those usually can net more power on the long go instead of just 25 points.

 

[Karfuss]

Someone on the first page suggested that her ability would be a truce:
I beleive this to probably be the best solution, or a mix of other solutions (Truce: & value=Number of cards in deck?)

Which is actually a great solution. Thinning decks can't run it. Mill have the advantage over it.

That'd be a far more reasonable drawback, considering most thinning decks are abusing their thin to actually yank her out in hand if they've not already got her. Also lets her be used as a tempo play, where Scorch becomes a far more viable counter, where Ciri:Nova users can't bleed out Round 2 for last card play. Then it also encourages a bigger deck, therefore more unique and diverse, rather than the shallow 'diversity' of tweaking existing, very viable decks. Probably in keeping with her design intent in the first place.

So take my REDpoint/like. Pragmatic solution, forums need more like you.

 

[Karajorma]

That was the entire point. I've said that all along, I don't understand why you have an issue with that.

The argument Jeydra made was to make sure that your opponent (the one with Ciri:Nova) is the one in that position. Since your opponent has crippled their deck in order to make a Ciri:Nova deck you should be able to outplay them in R1 and win, bleed them in R2 and then take R3 despite them having a good finisher.

In response to that you argued that Ciri:Nova decks will try to bleed you even if they lose R1 (which is impossible because they can't bleed anyone if they lose R1). Your argument makes absolutely no sense.

Coinflip determines who wins Round 1.

No it doesn't. If it did there would be no point in playing Gwent at all, we'd just flip a coin.

That's where I declare victory. If you cannot explain why those similar value cards have pre-requisites and drawbacks when played, you cannot defend Ciri: Nova.

And as I pointed out, you've declared victory prematurely. The drawback of Ciri:Nova has been pointed out multiple times, if you choose to ignore that fact it doesn't mean you get to declare you won. The drawback is that you have to go into the match with a hobbled deck. Instead of having 3 of every kind of card that works well for you, you only have two. Which means you have less chance of drawing the cards you need. Which is why your opponent should be trying to dominate R1.

 

[Karfuss]

In response to that you argued that Ciri:Nova decks will try to bleed you even if they lose R1 (which is impossible because they can't bleed anyone if they lose R1). Your argument makes absolutely no sense.

Couldn't perhaps be having more value in hand, can it? If you've played Gwent, even on the Witcher 3 version, you know that's possible. If they leave Round 1, with a card advantage or equal hand, you bleed. Regardless of whether they won or lost Round 1. You have to.

No it doesn't. If it did there would be no point in playing Gwent at all, we'd just flip a coin.

You realise that in losing coin flip, you must always stay ahead of your opponent to have the best possible chance of winning Round 1. If not then I'd suggest playing the game more, or climbing to a higher rank. You are at a disadvantage. And as you've already pointed out, Ciri decks will push Round 1, which is even MORE in their favour having won coinflip.

Coinflip influences Round 1. Coinflip is a Ciri:Nova's win condition. Goes deep with Round 1 in their favour, passes Round 2, takes CA and wins. Which is another valid point: You cannot pretend dictating the entire game, on a single round, of a game of three rounds, is balanced.

The drawback of Ciri:Nova has been pointed out multiple times, if you choose to ignore that fact it doesn't mean you get to declare you won. The drawback is that you have to go into the match with a hobbled deck. Instead of having 3 of every kind of card that works well for you, you only have two. Which means you have less chance of drawing the cards you need. Which is why your opponent should be trying to dominate R1.

Now justify Ciri: Nova, and remember. 2 bronzes of each type doesn't make a deck innately bad, proven by Ciri: Nova in pre-existing decks that perform well without even drawing her. You can't. And then it defaults back to what I've already alluded to, not realising how OP she is because you're countering Ciri: Nova with your own, or you're acting out of self-preservation.

I don't believe I'm the one ignoring here. Claiming 2 bronze cards as this massive disadvantage that cripples your whole deck and whole chances, is moot. When it's moot, it's obviously not a significant drawback, ergo win.

If decks were truly built around Ciri:Nova, and not pre-existing ones tweaked to accommodate her, then I'd fully agree with you. That, sadly, is not the case.

 

[Jeydra]

The argument Jeydra made was to make sure that your opponent (the one with Ciri:Nova) is the one in that position. Since your opponent has crippled their deck in order to make a Ciri:Nova deck you should be able to outplay them in R1 and win, bleed them in R2 and then take R3 despite them having a good finisher.

Well not quite. If you win round 1 vs. a Ciri: Nova deck, drypassing round 2 is probably better, since it gives you more scope to beat their finisher. Their finisher is likely to be bigger than yours after all. Winning round 1 also means you have the last play (as long as you didn't win down 2 cards) so you can keep cards like Geralt: Igni to answer the Ciri: Nova.

 

[Philologus]

You're playing it wrong then. Next time you lose the coin flip, just drypass round 1 and you'll make it to round two up a card. Losing round one on equal cards is never something that's "supposed" to happen and means either you've been making too many low tempo plays, or your deck needs more high-tempo options.

I'll wager that in games between high-level players, game ones that result in one side winning on equal cards make up less than 20%, possibly even less than 10%, of the games.

Well, clearly you wouldn't know. Regardless, losing R1 on equal cards happens, and it's a strong predictor of losing R3.

 

[Jeydra]

Well, clearly you wouldn't know. Regardless, losing R1 on equal cards happens, and it's a strong predictor of losing R3.

Realize that if you ever lose round 1 on equal cards, unless opponent mulliganed Wardancers, you could've gotten yourself a more favourable round 2 by drypassing round 1. In other words, you've been outplayed.

 

[Karfuss]

Realize that if you ever lose round 1 on equal cards, unless opponent mulliganed Wardancers, you could've gotten yourself a more favourable round 2 by drypassing round 1. In other words, you've been outplayed.

If by more favourable, you mean: Bled your finisher because you HAVE TO WIN Round 2, freely giving away CA in the process while having nothing going into Round 3. Straight into your Ciri: Nova last play. Then yes, more "favourable."

I can only think of one deck capable of doing that. Nekkers. And that's only if by some miracle they didn't use Brewess: Ritual for tempo Round 1, and proceeded to draw Royal Decree, Brewess or Ge'els as their last card. Even that's wholly dependent on you not having Scorch in hand. That is the only deck in the game that'll keep up with you, it's also the only deck in Gwent that can go three cards down and still win, but I digress.

 

[Jeydra]

If by more favourable, you mean: Bled your finisher because you HAVE TO WIN Round 2, freely giving away CA in the process while having nothing going into Round 3. Straight into your Ciri: Nova last play. Then yes, more "favourable."

I can only think of one deck capable of doing that. Nekkers. And that's only if by some miracle they didn't use Brewess: Ritual for tempo Round 1, and proceeded to draw Royal Decree, Brewess or Ge'els as their last card. Even that's wholly dependent on you not having Scorch in hand. That is the only deck in the game that'll keep up with you, it's also the only deck in Gwent that can go three cards down and still win, but I digress.

I've tried, but I'm going to give up after this last attempt.

IF YOU WON ROUND ONE - pass round 2. Don't try to bleed them because their win condition will usually > yours.
IF YOU LOST ROUND ONE - you're up a card. This applies even if you drypassed round one. Don't lose the card advantage and you'll be able to Scorch the Ciri: Nova off the table.

 

[Karfuss]

I've tried, but I'm going to give up after this last attempt.

IF YOU WON ROUND ONE - pass round 2. Don't try to bleed them because their win condition will usually > yours.
IF YOU LOST ROUND ONE - you're up a card. This applies even if you drypassed round one. Don't lose the card advantage and you'll be able to Scorch the Ciri: Nova off the table.

If you do not understand something as basic as this, your'e beyond hope. Sorry.

So... Don't bleed for card advantage which you need to beat any Ciri: Nova deck, or hope you don't get bled. By a Ciri: Nova deck that innately needs to bleed you the advantage.

How insightful. What meaningful counterplay. Read what you just suggested, and try applying that to an actual high ranked game. It may work in your hypothetical bubble, will never work in practice. Irony oozing. Sorry.

Added: Y'all run spies and/or Wardancers anyway. It's even more nonsensical on second thought.

 

[Draconifors]

This thread is heading in a bad direction. Keep it civil.

 

[Theodrik]

Most of the times that I see an oponnent with a 26 cards deck, I smile, so that's her purpose in the game, to make me smile. Somehow I find it much easier to beat Ciri: Nova decks then other variants around.

 

[Karfuss]

Most of the times that I see an oponnent with a 26 cards deck, I smile, so that's her purpose in the game, to make me smile. Somehow I find it much easier to beat Ciri: Nova decks then other variants around.

That's why Ciri:Nova players drop a silver. The ones that know what they're doing, anyway.

Either that, or they're running wardancers and or spies. So it doesn't really matter all that much.

 

[Pruny]

The problem is when i lost coinflip, played ancient foglet, oponent cantarela, me pass , he nova.
Seen this shit several times, silver spyes need to be 15.
:rage:

 

[GenLiu]

Nova isn't the problem, Silver spies and the coinflip are...

The problem is when i lost coinflip, played ancient foglet, oponent cantarela, me pass , he nova.
Seen this shit several times, silver spyes need to be 15.
:rage:

Honestly? They need to be changed and only provide card advantage if your opponent has more cards than you, otherwise it should play the card you drew.
Silver spies has always been an issue, since the closed BETA and CDPR never stopped "buffing" their strenght.
Their body is a substantial aspect of the card, when you see players playing Summoning circle to copy them (thus doubling their power for even more card advantage) you understand that it's impossible to balance them unless you just attack their effect directly.

 

[iamthedave]

According to Gwentdb Ciri: Nova is used in 22% of decks, compared to scorch which is used in 14%. She's clearly not that restrictive if she's getting used that much. That's an awful lot of decks using her. That's higher than Gigni by about 8%, and I'd have said he's the closest thing to a ubiquitous neutral gold.