FP VS TP - perspective matters

[John_Quiroga]

From what I've seen in the past with lots of other games, FPP and TPP are tricky to implement simultaneously because you need to sort of build the game twice. If I build a FPP game, it's not like the 3D model for my character persistently exists in the game. It's usually just the camera itself and some disembodied arms holding weapons.

To add a TPP mode, I need to build a separate 3D model, of my character, and new versions of all the animation packages, and shadows, and etc., etc., etc. Then, I need to code a totally different camera to work with the TPP aspects, like auto-zoom and panning to avoid things obstructing my view. I'll need to code controls to operate differently if I don't want movement to feel stilted. I need to ensure the AI knows where "me" is, as the focal point will be different whether I'm in FPP or TPP.

It's actually quite a big task to do both. I would imagine that going back through a huge game and adding all of the stuff for TPP retroactively would a huge task. To get it functioning well would probably be a monumental task. Then, the bug-hunting would begin...

Anything is possible, but I'm pretty sure this would be a legendary job of work.

If there is no model there is no case... specially on a game with character customization. It would be impossible. But for the sake of argument let´s pretend a model does exist as they said you can switch to TPP and see the body when driving and on cutscenes (i am assuming in-game cutscenes as there would be no way to pre render customizable characters).

If the bodies are on those pre rendered scenes then the bodies should be rigged, right? Maybe not animated (other than the specific cinematic animations so not even cycles... let alone any complex animation or interaction with objects or the environment.

Just thinking about it is tiresome. Here is hopping the FPP is actually just an aesthetic choice and they bothered to make all the animations in case the player wanted to use a mirror or something.

 

[exogenesis09]

third reason: It requires a lot of technical work including new animations and addressing rendering issues. sticking with only one perspective simplifies things.

People seem to think it's simple to just toggle and it isn't. go look at third person mods for FP games and vice versa. they are awful.

If that’s the case. That’s not our fault as consumers to make this game mainly on FPP. Before they announce Cyberpunk 2077, franchises like The Elder Scrolls, Fallout, and Vampire: the masquerade were the games implemented both FPP & TPP before. We don’t have to guess role players feedback back then as I am here to volunteer that as I role player and played those games. I prefer having both perspective in the game and it’s give me a choice to play what I want to.

If CDPR already failed that. They fail showing that little bit of step to impress me as a Role Player of this game as we most of us experienced to play games that support both perspective in an Open World RPG Games such as Elder Scrolls & Fallout. It’s not a big deal for others (including me) but for sure it will hit an impact in other consumers & fans.

Well in a matter of a time, we might be able to cover up CDPR minor mistakes but I’m guessing after seeing the Suggestion Thread in the forum. Majority of the people said that they want an option to have both TPP/FPP before they started making this thread. I’m guessing that one just slips by in the air. I feel like it’s already to late for CDPR to change it unless via mods as many people say.

 

[Multiliv]

Be optimistic, CD Projekt RED is also developing another game, perhaps it has third-person view. Hahahaha

 

[xer21]

If that’s the case. That’s not our fault as consumers to make this game mainly on FPP. Before they announce Cyberpunk 2077, franchises like The Elder Scrolls, Fallout, and Vampire: the masquerade were the games implemented both FPP & TPP before. We don’t have to guess role players feedback back then as I am here to volunteer that as I role player and played those games. I prefer having both perspective in the game and it’s give me a choice to play what I want to.

If CDPR already failed that. They fail showing that little bit of step to impress me as a Role Player of this game as we most of us experienced to play games that support both perspective in an Open World RPG Games such as Elder Scrolls & Fallout. It’s not a big deal for others (including me) but for sure it will hit an impact in other consumers & fans.

Well in a matter of a time, we might be able to cover up CDPR minor mistakes but I’m guessing after seeing the Suggestion Thread in the forum. Majority of the people said that they want an option to have both TPP/FPP before they started making this thread. I’m guessing that one just slips by in the air. I feel like it’s already to late for CDPR to change it unless via mods as many people say.

the third person in all of those games looked and played like garbage. the Bethesda games in particular always feel janky in both perspectives and the toggling is part of it. stick to one and make it good. if it plays like a Bethesda game I would be severely disappointed.

I feel like its too late because CD Projekt has their own vision of the game and if fans get left behind, they don't (and really, shouldn't) care.

 

[Sheeeen]

And they say CP will not be slow paced as Fallout but nothing like Doom, in the middle term, it sounds EXATCLY like a Battlefield/COD-Combat like. Here we have some options, or this guys are just genious and will reinvent the RPG with FPP or this will be just a shooter customizable like Crysis.

Why is it an issue that the game is based on Battlefield/Call of Duty combat? Those games have had relatively excellent gameplay and gunplay mechanics because they have a formula and follow it. This entire thing is being overblown, we aren't even close to the release date and you'd think CDPR betrayed this entire community just by looking around the forums.

 

[GeometryOfShadows]

If there is no model there is no case... specially on a game with character customization. It would be impossible. But for the sake of argument let´s pretend a model does exist as they said you can switch to TPP and see the body when driving and on cutscenes (i am assuming in-game cutscenes as there would be no way to pre render customizable characters).

If the bodies are on those pre rendered scenes then the bodies should be rigged, right? Maybe not animated (other than the specific cinematic animations so not even cycles... let alone any complex animation or interaction with objects or the environment.

Just thinking about it is tiresome. Here is hopping the FPP is actually just an aesthetic choice and they bothered to make all the animations in case the player wanted to use a mirror or something.

Well thats true, im pretty sure i saw CDPR say you can see your character in mirrors. (which means they might have animations)

 

[kingsword]

Welcome to the Forums @kingsword !

Thanks for the welcome, CP77 was on my radar for a long while and while I'm happy with most of the reveals, this made me come here to voice my opinion and concern about it. Many people to cheer for all of the good stuff anyway, better give feedback on what might taint the experience!

And gotta say, I'm liking what I see about this forum so far as well.

 

[AlterRektMLG]

>Pointless character customization
>Isn't that hard to implement a third person view but still no
>Motion sickness
>Third person allows for a much more immersive and fun experience
>Woohoo I can see my character in mirror, what a great subtle way to experience the customization

 

[Stiler]

Cool. That's not mutually exclusive to Third Person games.

Of course it isn't, but the point is quite moot when you only see it in your inventory screen or an occasional cutscene instead of being able to swing the camera around and see your character, or when you're talking to npc's, etc.

I mean great, but if that makes or breaks a game for you then clearly you value looking at art more than playing. Which is to say, I don't think this matters to you as much as you think it will.

I never said it was a deal breaker to me. I still intend to play the game, I just highly prefer playing my rpgs in third person and like the choice to do so.

I'm one of the weird people that plays Elder Scrolls/Fallout games in third person.

If you think that a trench coat is the end all be all of atmosphere, I think you need to open your mind a bit more. Atmosphere is in execution, not just style. Plenty of first person games nail strong atmosphere. You're locking yourself in a box because you haven't experienced otherwise. This is a case of lack of experience, not a lacking of the medium.

I was merely giving an example of a scene that can't exist when you're locked to first person view.

I have played many first person games, one of my favorite rpgs was The Lands of Lore series, I've played the Thief series, Wizardy seires, Deus Ex, Systom Shock, etc.

I know first person games can be immersive and have atmosphere.

I still prefer, if given the choice, third person view for many of the reasons I already outlined.

I addressed why this is actually a huge technical issue. Its not as simple as just "make it toggle".

It depends on how they've built it. If they built it from the start with a true first person view, meaning that they have the camera where your head is, fully model the animations (so you see your hands/armor/body when you look around), etc then it can be easier. There would still be work of course, making sure animations look right in both views.

If they used fake first person, which usually means the camera is placed lower, don't fully animate the player body, take shortcuts to get the desired animation/view (IE crouching without actually animating the model doing it rather just stretching the model around since the don't intend for you to see it) then it will be harder to throw third person view in.

All of those games play pretty awkwardly in both perspectives. There's a reason for that.

I'd take some jank over having it locked, personally.

 

[BaalNergal]

Well thats true, im pretty sure i saw CDPR say you can see your character in mirrors.

Wouldn't it be kinda mind-screwy if your character was the only one who didn't appear in mirrors?

 

[cyberpunkforever]

ok people don't worry, they will keep our feedback in mind,
they will find the way to counter motion sickness,
some thngs that can help: stable fps, a wide and broad field of view, and take a break after some hours of gameplay

now, I'm curious about first person melee, it needs to be slow otherwise everyone will get motion sickness

and they need to add some kind of inventory where we can see our character with all details
or press a key to see the full body character

 

[Kingsegg]

I was really looking forward to this game, but now I may have to pass on it. It looks like I have only Star Citizen and Starfield to look forward to now

 

[GeometryOfShadows]

Wouldn't it be kinda mind-screwy if your character was the only one who didn't appear in mirrors?

Yeah, i meant it more along the lines of how that works with having animations for our character.

 

[BeenThere2]

The melee combat won't be as good with FPP, that screen shot of female character with blades coming out of her arm would not be as immersive in FPP, no way..... that screen shot is what brought all the hype for this game. I have played many FPP games like Dishonor, Bioshock series, Dying Light...… but for a open world RPG not to have third person view as a option is going back 30 years in game development. If they want truly immersive gameplay make the game text base only then we could use our imaginations. Why create a detail world with all kinds of NPC to interact with, give you all the options to create your character, the way you want, and limit the game play to FPP makes no sense, only to see your character in cut scenes, and inventory really ? I do get motion sickness from play FPS, and FPP games, I have to reset make equilibrium all the time if I play these type of games to much. You may not have the problem when you are young, but it does happen to people as you get older. Some FPP games are designed better with less camera motion, or with controls to slow camera motion down. I hope the developers will listen to the community feedback. Options are good in a RPG game, that is what it is based off of your choices determine how the game is played out. I still am buying, and playing this game because good RPG games are few, and far between games, and I'm getting to old to wait another 5-6 years for another one to be made. I hope other developers will develop more single player Blade Runner, 5th Element, Cyberpunk type open world RPG games..... it's a theme that is needed in open world RPGs especially with big neon lit cities with flying cars.

 

[3Edu]

Why is it an issue that the game is based on Battlefield/Call of Duty combat? Those games have had relatively excellent gameplay and gunplay mechanics because they have a formula and follow it. This entire thing is being overblown, we aren't even close to the release date and you'd think CDPR betrayed this entire community just by looking around the forums.

There's no problem on the gunplay mechanics when we are talking about a FPS, but CDPR statement was "This is not a FPS with RPG elements. This is a RPG with FPS elements".

How this can be possible?

And again, the "betray-thing" is about the CDPR silence for almost 6 years after announcemente and now just say it's FPP. As a design choice, they could talk about it almost a 3~4 years ago. And it's not one, 2 or 3 users who misunderstand some information, is almost 50% of entire community on this forum supporting the project all this year...

 

[Terralventhe]

now, I'm curious about first person melee, it needs to be slow otherwise everyone will get motion sickness

I said it before, but.. in a game where you have badass martial arts, kickass chainsaw arms, nano-whips and any number of sick, stylishly-cool melee and close-ranged combat options.. first person really seems like it is gonna look stiff and dull. I mean, folks have said so far that Dishonored had great first-person melee, but I tried Dishonored.. for the brief periods I could play it, the combat was boring and felt stiff and rigid.

 

[kingsword]

To be honest, I find the "you'll see your character many times" claim to be misleading. True enough, there will be many conversations and possibly some cut-scenes. Driving is certainly not a valid instance though, we'll see the vehicle. Not V.

As for conversations and cut-scenes, no matter how often, will be a very minuscule percentage of the total game time. Best case scenario would be something like 5% maybe? Or call me a pessimist and say 10-15%. That's still a tiny sliver compared to what you're mainly doing in the game like moving around, combat, going through UI elements, etc. During all of which this fine-crafted, custom character is hidden from you.

This feels like the first time I played Eve Online: It had one of the best character creators of its time and once you're content and finish your character, you realize you just see a static mugshot of it in a character window. I had thought to myself: "What a waste."

 

[spookyxelectric]

I said it before, but.. in a game where you have badass martial arts, kickass chainsaw arms, nano-whips and any number of sick, stylishly-cool melee and close-ranged combat options.. first person really seems like it is gonna look stiff and dull. I mean, folks have said so far that Dishonored had great first-person melee, but I tried Dishonored.. for the brief periods I could play it, the combat was boring and felt stiff and rigid.

Yeah, first person melee has always been kinda slow and methodical, which is fine if you wanted like, first person Dark Souls. But I'd much rather have something along the lines of Metal Gear Rising. I'm not gonna get that, unfortunately, but I'll remain optimistic that CDPR can nail the gameplay they're going for.
The only game they've made where I didn't enjoy the combat was the first Witcher game, and that was the first game they ever made.

 

[Wothan_]

To be honest, I find the "you'll see your character many times" claim to be misleading. True enough, there will be many conversations and possibly some cut-scenes. Driving is certainly not a valid instance though, we'll see the vehicle. Not V.

As for conversations and cut-scenes, no matter how often, will be a very minuscule percentage of the total game time. Best case scenario would be something like 5% maybe? Or call me a pessimist and say 10-15%. That's still a tiny sliver compared to what you're mainly doing in the game like moving around, combat, going through UI elements, etc. During all of which this fine-crafted, custom character is hidden from you.

This feels like the first time I played Eve Online: It had one of the best character creators of its time and once you're content and finish your character, you realize you just see a static mugshot of it in a character window. I had thought to myself: "What a waste."

Well, technically you could walk with your avatar on stations.

But yeah, customization will be there, but you won't see it most of the time, based on experience on previous RPGs, the most exposure you gonna have to your avatar will be through the Inventory menu.

Implementing Cybernetics in the UI is nice and all but not THAT important.
Not everyone feels that FPP = Immersion either, I want to be conviced by CDPR that FPP is the best option here, but I just don't see it for now.

 

[xer21]

>Pointless character customization
>Isn't that hard to implement a third person view but still no
>Motion sickness
>Third person allows for a much more immersive and fun experience
>Woohoo I can see my character in mirror, what a great subtle way to experience the customization

You clearly dont understand how hard it is to make games if you think its simple put in a toggle, and arguing that third person is inherently superior in terms of immersion is stupid. Its clearly subjective as CD Projekt is arguing in favor of First Person and immersion is primarily a matter of execution and not camera placement.