It sounds like the latter. Chances are, you will never know that the game downscaled the gear, it just happens when the item is generated.
It sounds like the latter. Chances are, you will never know that the game downscaled the gear, it just happens when the item is generated.
There's no point in that. Why should I receive a 15 level sword for a 15 level Geralt if I have succeded in killing a 20 level monster?
Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it pointless. CDPR's reasoning is that you are level 15 and not level 20, so rather than have a sword rotting away in your bags for 5 levels you can use it right now. When you are level 20 many hours later there will be another sword for you to get so its no big deal.
Everything doesnt scale, so there are potentially still items you can acquire before you are capable of using them.
Disable weapon scaling
Hi,
A number of people have raised concerns about your implementation of weapon scaling.
Given the nature of open-world games, weapon scaling is immersion breaking and potentially game breaking if Oblivion is anything to go by.
In a video Damien Monnier stated that the system was a recent addition, can you please add a gameplay option to disable this system. Long time Witcher fans will love you for it.
Cheers,
P.S.
An example of why this is immersion breaking is exploration. If a player explores and tries hard to defeat a difficult monster early on, they get a "Legendary" sword, however after a few levels this will be worse than a "Regular" Steel sword due to weapon scaling. Therefore the player will have been punished for exploring early on. This is bad and against the ethos of the Witcher series.
Hi,
A number of people have raised concerns about your implementation of weapon scaling.
Given the nature of open-world games, weapon scaling is immersion breaking and potentially game breaking if Oblivion is anything to go by.
In a video Damien Monnier stated that the system was a recent addition, can you please add a gameplay option to disable this system. Long time Witcher fans will love you for it.
Cheers,
P.S.
An example of why this is immersion breaking is exploration. If a player explores and tries hard to defeat a difficult monster early on, they get a "Legendary" sword, however after a few levels this will be worse than a "Regular" Steel sword due to weapon scaling. Therefore the player will have been punished for exploring early on. This is bad and against the ethos of the Witcher series.
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I'm very torn on this issue.
On one hand, you've got devs talking how awesome and rewarding it is to go and try to best monsters that are outside of your ballpark, and then, after you slay them, you get a watered down stick with a unique look and maybe some poison damage or extra bleeding effect or whateverer, because, lolyouwerelowlevel.
I would feel outright cheated, if I were to die fifty times trying to kill something and get "rewarded" with a weapon or armor that's barely better than whatever I have on me at the moment.
On the other hand, I've been recenlty playing Titan Quest new game plus on legendary difficulty, where you basically play again with gear and skill from last playthrough and all loot just becomes better and enemies harder to kill.
I was in a cave, not even a particularly hard one and I looted gear so overpowered, I pretty much beat the rest of the game with it, just throwing away everything else I've found, because stat wise that sword and armor I've got was blowing everything else out of the water so hard, there was no point.
And I don't mean that they were margianlly better, I mean that the absolutely most powerful weapon I could buy in that playthrough had around 50 damage and the sword I picked up had 130 damage. Not to mention the former was a war hammer with very slow attack speed, while the sword was rated very fast. Just no contest there.
So... I fear that if they simply loaded chests in high level areas with absurdly powerful screen clearing weapons, everyone who ends up getting them one way or another would end up playing rest of the game in what could be considered god mode.
This system could possibly break the game for many players IMHO.
On one hand, you've got devs talking how awesome and rewarding it is to go and try to best monsters that are outside of your ballpark, and then, after you slay them, you get a watered down stick with a unique look and maybe some poison damage or extra bleeding effect or whateverer, because, lolyouwerelowlevel.
I would feel outright cheated, if I were to die fifty times trying to kill something and get "rewarded" with a weapon or armor that's barely better than whatever I have on me at the moment.
On the other hand, I've been recenlty playing Titan Quest new game plus on legendary difficulty, where you basically play again with gear and skill from last playthrough and all loot just becomes better and enemies harder to kill.
I was in a cave, not even a particularly hard one and I looted gear so overpowered, I pretty much beat the rest of the game with it, just throwing away everything else I've found, because stat wise that sword and armor I've got was blowing everything else out of the water so hard, there was no point.
And I don't mean that they were margianlly better, I mean that the absolutely most powerful weapon I could buy in that playthrough had around 50 damage and the sword I picked up had 130 damage. Not to mention the former was a war hammer with very slow attack speed, while the sword was rated very fast. Just no contest there.
So... I fear that if they simply loaded chests in high level areas with absurdly powerful screen clearing weapons, everyone who ends up getting them one way or another would end up playing rest of the game in what could be considered god mode.
This system could possibly break the game for many players IMHO.
the weapons have level requirements though, so even if you get a good weapon from a high level enemy you manage to kill there is no guarantee you can use it. this keeps players from being able to get their hands on and use weapons that exceed expected stats for that level. the weapon scaling just drops the level requirement and the stats of that weapon if the weapons level requirements are close to the players current level when they pick it up. this means that players can fight higher level enemies and if available collect a reward that they can actually use instead of having to wait till you have a high enough level to use that weapon without collecting a weapon that is overpowered. level requirements stop players collecting and using weapons that are overpowered and game breaking otherwise, and weapon scaling allows players to get weapons that they can use from fighting higher level enemies. the problem is that for more experienced players the drop in weapons stats can be irritating. you may want to get your hands on a good weapon, but instead of being able to get a hold of a good weapon at its full potential that you might want to use when you reach it's requirement, its stats are lowered diminishing its value, stoping experienced players from crafting their ideal builds. also the change in stats is world braking because the world adapts to the player, the world revolves around the player, and so you lose the sense of place because the things that exist in the world are not as important as the players existence and the players fun. good game worlds assert their importance, they don't recognize the player as any more important than any other non player character although a story is happening around them, and whatever happens in the world occurs through cause and effect (a great example is dark souls because much of the gear can be collected off dead bodies with stories attached to them. the players pathetic story is not much more than the stories of a weapons previous owner. players can recognize a history and so the world become more believable thanks to the implied existence of lives equal, lesser or greater than your own.)
Yeah, it downright sucks, no matter how you look at it.
It's just a poor idea, regardless of what the design goal can be driving it. If anything, even simply because you could achieve the same goals in more elegant ways.
And that's just one of the many reasons I simply don't like Diablo-like randomized itemization either.
For one, it endorses compulsive killing/looting/comparing of dozens and dozens of barely different items, which I find very annoying and pace-breaking. Beside that, I don't even care particularly about "perfect balance" in a single player (at least as far as a game doesn't become trivially easy) but I love my RPG loot items to feel unique and remarkable, possibly even with some background story (and I don't mean just a lore description when you inspect them, but also things a reason to be where you'll find them, a quest related to them, etc).
On a side note, I always read silly justifications for games with randomized loot , level scaling and so on, like "Every playthrough will feel different" but you know what? That never actually works for me. When enemies scale to my level, random loot of any quality can be found at any point, etc... I never actually get the feeling that "every playthrough of the game is different". I mostly get this unsettling impression that "every moment of of it is generic" and it doesn't really matter what I do because something powerful will eventually come in my hands somehow.
IMO the best way to handle it now would be to have scaling of a weapon that goes up as you level up.
So say, you find a lv 20 sword and you're level 15. You can use it at level 15, but it's not as effective for you at since you're under it's level (IE dmg/stats are scaled to level 15'ish) however when you reach it's intended level it becomes more effective (IE the stats/dmg output increases).
Or just have upgrades you can apply (IE like Dark Souls/Bloodborne), where the "Scaling" of stats can be increased through upgrades/crafting. You find a nice sword at lower levels you can find things to "upgrade" it as you play the game and keep it in-line with your level or give it amazing properties.
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From what I am reading no.
What I meant was that your skill could influence how "effective" you are with a weapon, a lower skill with a high level sword you could still "use" the sword, but it wont be as good as it was intended or have it's maximum dmg output, because your skill in swordsmanship is low.
As you skill up the effectiveness increases and the dmg output is better (IE stats/scaling).
Rather then "You don't meet the level, you can not use the sword" Or having it scale down and stay there (this makes players not want to find "uber/legendary" items early because they don't want to "gimp" them, basically it makes people (like me) who love to explore and try "hard" encounters NOT want to because the loot gets scaled down.
There are many other ways of doing it then gimping items that would still let them balance the scaling and not make you "op" for finding an "uber" sword earlier then they expected, which in turn makes it more rewarding for people who like to explore and try tough things.
So say, you find a lv 20 sword and you're level 15. You can use it at level 15, but it's not as effective for you at since you're under it's level (IE dmg/stats are scaled to level 15'ish) however when you reach it's intended level it becomes more effective (IE the stats/dmg output increases).
Or just have upgrades you can apply (IE like Dark Souls/Bloodborne), where the "Scaling" of stats can be increased through upgrades/crafting. You find a nice sword at lower levels you can find things to "upgrade" it as you play the game and keep it in-line with your level or give it amazing properties.
---------- Updated at 01:25 PM ----------
From what I am reading no.
What I meant was that your skill could influence how "effective" you are with a weapon, a lower skill with a high level sword you could still "use" the sword, but it wont be as good as it was intended or have it's maximum dmg output, because your skill in swordsmanship is low.
As you skill up the effectiveness increases and the dmg output is better (IE stats/scaling).
Rather then "You don't meet the level, you can not use the sword" Or having it scale down and stay there (this makes players not want to find "uber/legendary" items early because they don't want to "gimp" them, basically it makes people (like me) who love to explore and try "hard" encounters NOT want to because the loot gets scaled down.
There are many other ways of doing it then gimping items that would still let them balance the scaling and not make you "op" for finding an "uber" sword earlier then they expected, which in turn makes it more rewarding for people who like to explore and try tough things.
Or...you find a sword level 20, but you can use it only with 2 hands and without cast any signs, until you reach the right level.
Just remove all scaling. If enemies don't scale in this game, why should items/equipment? If a person is foolish enough to fight a high level monster, he can get one hit killed. But if he is strong enough to beat that monster, give him a reward the he deservers without nerfing the weapon.
Finding overpowered weapons and formulating plans to get them are one of the biggest thrills in RPGs for me; and this game will take that away from me.
Finding overpowered weapons and formulating plans to get them are one of the biggest thrills in RPGs for me; and this game will take that away from me.
Or maybe it is simply a bad design choice.
If I beat an higher level monster, I want a fairy quality loot, not downgraded because my level is not high enough.
Introducing a "skill" mechanism to pile on top of "levels" just seems completely redundant. They may as well just remove the level requirement and have item stats scale based on character level vs item level. Not having every item scale suggests that they do still want some restriction in place, perhaps to protect "unique/legendary" items. As someone that also enjoys the thrill of exploration and tough challenges, I'm not at all deterred by the idea that I may get "super awesome" level 10 sword as oppose to a super awesome level 15 sword. In either case my hard work nets me a super awesome item that I'll use until I find the next one, and if there are plenty of high quality weapons out there I dont see why I would want to covet that one.
If not every item scales, what makes you think that is completely lost?
Well i am sure that there will be enough good weapons in the game so we won't have to worry about some of them being scaled down to the level you find them. I mean, i doubt it will be easy to kill all the 40-50 level monsters to get all those weapons early in the game and mess their damage.
On top of that, not all weapons scale down, so that works fine for me.
On top of that, not all weapons scale down, so that works fine for me.
I don't mind this way of scaling. This just means that you can use the item that you've worked hard to get via finishing a long dungeon or killing a monster sooner than having to wait until you reach a certain level.
There will be people that will just leave loot there and just try to "Game" the game by coming at a later stage when they are higher level, but that's just sad and not enjoying the game for the story and focusing more on the loot, which importance is supposed to be secondary.
There will be people that will just leave loot there and just try to "Game" the game by coming at a later stage when they are higher level, but that's just sad and not enjoying the game for the story and focusing more on the loot, which importance is supposed to be secondary.
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Oh I absolutely detest permanent scaling of items in games. It leads to me constantly worrying about acquiring good items too early and ruining them for the rest of the game. It also doesn't make sense in terms of the lore. I really would have preferred the penalising system others have suggested here. It's a great shame CDPR chose otherwise.
The issue here that some seem to be overlooking is how long it takes to level.
Gamestar.de played the game for 12 hours, and got to level 7. That's an average of two hours per level, at the lowest levels in the game.
If you went and killed a monster only 4-5 levels higher than you, then the weapon you get wouldn't be useable for another 8-10 hours of playtime. That would be some serious delayed gratification for toppling such a tough challenge.
Think about even a lesser challenge, killing a monster only 1-2 levels higher than you would reward a weapon that you couldn't use for potentially 2-4 hours. Again, a lot of delayed gratification for enemies you are likely to be fighting pretty regular. You'd essentially never find upgrades that you could use 'right away'.
On the other hand, if the weapon were to downscale, and then upscale, then you would likely have the 'best sword ever' for the same amount of time, making all weapons you find in that time essentially worthless to you.
Neither of those sound like fun situations to me. It sounds to me like CDPR are trying to make sure that person finds solid upgrades at least every 1-3 levels, which means regardless of whether you killed a monster at level 21 or level 17, by the time you get to level 21, you'll have found another great weapon from a different challenge.
And with the devs having commented that the best gear comes from crafting, and there is more than one area designed to challenge even a max level Geralt, the fear of not having the best version of a weapon that I could have just sort of slides to the wayside.
Gamestar.de played the game for 12 hours, and got to level 7. That's an average of two hours per level, at the lowest levels in the game.
If you went and killed a monster only 4-5 levels higher than you, then the weapon you get wouldn't be useable for another 8-10 hours of playtime. That would be some serious delayed gratification for toppling such a tough challenge.
Think about even a lesser challenge, killing a monster only 1-2 levels higher than you would reward a weapon that you couldn't use for potentially 2-4 hours. Again, a lot of delayed gratification for enemies you are likely to be fighting pretty regular. You'd essentially never find upgrades that you could use 'right away'.
On the other hand, if the weapon were to downscale, and then upscale, then you would likely have the 'best sword ever' for the same amount of time, making all weapons you find in that time essentially worthless to you.
Neither of those sound like fun situations to me. It sounds to me like CDPR are trying to make sure that person finds solid upgrades at least every 1-3 levels, which means regardless of whether you killed a monster at level 21 or level 17, by the time you get to level 21, you'll have found another great weapon from a different challenge.
And with the devs having commented that the best gear comes from crafting, and there is more than one area designed to challenge even a max level Geralt, the fear of not having the best version of a weapon that I could have just sort of slides to the wayside.
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Let's put it in this way: even in the best case scenario where this applies only to some items and not all loot, that still is a partially bad design choice and it's only redeeming quality would be to not ruin itemization entirely, just a part of it.
That's why I find it really hard to defend.
Maybe it would be more sensible to just completely do away with stat based weapons and let Geralt deal more damage as he levels up.
didn't first game work like this? I don't remember swords actually having base damage, only amplifying Geralt's own damage output, which depended on his skill allocation and choosen fighting style.
Sure, picking this or that a sword would become a mater of cosmetics, then again, many people complain about best looking weapons/armor in the game becoming completely worthless as you level up. It's not always just abour looks. What about gear that has actual story significance?
This here sword had power to move the world, wield it with pride!
cue Geralt throwing the thing into the ditch, three hours later.
didn't first game work like this? I don't remember swords actually having base damage, only amplifying Geralt's own damage output, which depended on his skill allocation and choosen fighting style.
Sure, picking this or that a sword would become a mater of cosmetics, then again, many people complain about best looking weapons/armor in the game becoming completely worthless as you level up. It's not always just abour looks. What about gear that has actual story significance?
This here sword had power to move the world, wield it with pride!
cue Geralt throwing the thing into the ditch, three hours later.