Sword Requirement Levels, Equipment Level Scaling

[Exentryk]

I think I like getting new stuff more frequently. Keeps things exciting.

With upscaling, you still have the choice to do that. Ignore your strong hard earned weapon, and just keep buying new stuff. But with non-upscaling, you're stuck with only one choice, which is keep buying new swords. Non-upscaling also comes with the baggage of potentially ruining weapons permanently for your save file. Some OCD people (like me) will have to plan out when is the right time to get weapons.

There is no reason why the weapon should not upscale to its original stats.


EDIT - Neogaf forum users also share their thoughts on weapon scaling issue. From what I'm reading, people are puzzled as to why the weapon doesn't upscale to its original stats. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1030336

 

[Scryar]

I'm happy with the solution. Although the prevvious one was also ok. I'm really really glad there won't be any upscaling. Smart choice by CD Project Red.

 

[arkhenon]

Well, as I said, I liked the previous "preset requirements" more than this solution. But I'm repeating, they know how to balance out their own games. It would be unwise to have that strong of an opinion of a game system that we haven't even experienced yet (And we have no concrete information about. For all we know, they might have implemented some other idea to solve the issue as well). So I'd reserve judgement until the game comes out, before making any modding requests

For my part, if there will be downscaling, I'd prefer the weapons "not" upscale with us, as @EliHarel and others here. Now, I also realize that having weapons upscale is totally logical (more so actually, because it can explain itself as "You can release the full potential of the weapon now"). But as Eli pointed out, it would decrease the joy of obtaining new weapons for me, if I have a weapon for several levels. Having the option in the upscale version is not a good argument against this, as no one would change their strong weapon for some other weapon which is weaker, or has the same value.

Also, we know that the strongest items will be obtained through crafting, and that won't have any issues. As we will know what level we should be to use the crafted item, before crafting it

PS: This will be a little bit from my personal curiosity, so forgive me @Exentryk you bring the argument of "you can buy new swords" really frequently; but we are talking about looting the items here, are we not? I mean as far as I know, you should know the required level of the sword that you are going to buy beforehand, so buying shouldn't introduce any problems. In the current system, I'd get the stronger weapon that I looted, and sell my older version; and so on. I'm just bringing this out because I'm not sure if I understood your point totally.

 

[lord_blex]

With upscaling, you still have the choice to do that. Ignore your strong hard earned weapon, and just keep buying new stuff. But with non-upscaling, you're stuck with only one choice, which is keep buying new swords.

why would I do that if I already have a weapon that will stay relevant for a really long time? I didn't mean "new stuff" as in anything that's new, I meant significant upgrades. this is kind of the same as saying I don't have to use the dark armor in dark mode in witcher 2. that's the best, why wouldn't I?
if swords can have varying levels then there is a smaller chance for an actual upgrade if you already have a high level weapon.

Non-upscaling also comes with the baggage of potentially ruining weapons permanently for your save file. Some OCD people (like me) will have to plan out when is the right time to get weapons.

do we know if loot is set in stone? also, since level requirements are no longer a thing, will we even know the supposed levels of the items? you may not be able to plan out much.

 

[andersonblue]

I remember Oblivion without mods and hated the non upscaling issue with items. I'd rather the monster drop a level 20 weapon even we if can't equip it than having said item made redundant a few levels later.

Unless the quest design is so awesome that you will continue to get new weapons as you complete each area. But that is very wishful thinking.

 

[Slidell]

The positive about minor stuff like this is that it can quickly be removed with a mod.

 

[gtcarlson]

So much of this weighs on how well the game is balanced and itemized. With this feature they removed the level requirements and thus any indication if your sword is a high or low level, either it's good or it's not, loot it and move on. I think this is a great design so if you find a really good weapon at lvl 10 its just that really good but doesn't trivialize content, but that same sword if found at level 20 is still good, and as for not scaling up like I said you wont know what is or isn't scaled so it doesn't really matter. Scaling weapons then leads to which ones scale, I think the people wanting upscale would be disappointed regardless because at one point or another you will find a level 20 sword at level 20 and it wont scale at all, or maybe you get one level of scaling.

Bad design would be a big red sign saying "You Looted This Level 20 sword, it has been down scaled accordingly to level 10" instead you will loot a sword and continue on your marry way off to hunt monsters.

 

[Geralt_of_bsas]

Just so that everyone understands clearly, the idea is that weapons are still unique and valuable, because they have unique stats and bonuses, but the things that are found in all weapons and that scale, like damage, the things that create linear imbalances rather than non-linear ones (fire or ice, etc)z are the ones that change according to when you find them.

So the point is that weapons remain useful with comparable but alternative stats and effects for different purposes, but that the things that must be shared between them and that scales linearly, dont eventually ruin other weapons ever. This way no weapon gets ruined at all, unless it was supposed to be not that good, like a mediocre sword with no particular stats other than normal damage. Special things keep being special, crap things keep being crap, though useful.

Non-upscaling also comes with the baggage of potentially ruining weapons permanently for your save file.

how is it ruined? what do you mean?

 

[LordCorvin1]

My thought on this,

On one hand it discourages people going after the toughest monsters, since it will drop same level sword. On the other hand people are encouraged to switch out weapons every time you level up. Also if there will be legendary items, that were used to be level 30 and you happen to find them at level 5. Those items are not so legendary anymore.

For me personally I like the old idea, even if you have to carry around the sword till you level up. That way you feel sort of achievement that you got an epic sword that you can brag about.

 

[dragonbird]

The positive about minor stuff like this is that it can quickly be removed with a mod.

It depends how they do it.
In TW2, the Dark Mode effects and bonus was handled by some low-level coding, not easily by-passable by modders, which is why the first mod to "fix" it was a total cop-out, simply turning off the flag that made the swords "Dark Mode", which meant that neither the dark mode AV effect nor the bonus ever happened.

If the levelling thing is also handled by code, it may be a while before there's a good mod, but if it's all handled by stats, there'll probably be one fairly quickly.

 

[Benutzer27]

ANY kind of scaling, itemscaling or enemyscaling whatsoever, completely ruins the persistence of the gameworld for me. The gameworld shouldnt adapt around you, you should adapt to the gameworld. People talk about stuff in games, and if you tell your friends about that awesome sword you found in a cave it should also remain aweseome when they go there and find it and not become crap because they picked it up at the wrong level. thats a completely unintuitive gamebalance measurement and i am absolutely not okay with it.

I really thought you guys would have figured it out due to the fact that you went against enemy levelscaling, and now you unleash this, sorry, SHIT upon us?!? because people want to equip new swords every damn levelup? are we playing diablo or a witcher game? why not use a system like in gothic where you couldnt use the best swords from the beginning, but you could invest your learning points in attributes based on the loot you find so you can wield that aweseme sword sooner than later? or maybe use the dark souls system where you only unleash the full potential of the sword when you got the right stats to properly wield it? all of those solutions would be better than your current solution.


sorry for the harsh words.... i still love you guys, but i am madly pissed.

 

[thislsmadness]

Reposting this here since its relevant. Its another description of item scaling from Damien:

DD: What reward incentives are there for tackling higher levelled creatures at lower levels?
DM: Basically since our monsters don't scale with you, if you go fight a monster that protects a chest (very RPG, but just an example). and you manage to kill the monster, you have access to the chest. At this point, in some cases, but not all, the chest will have some info from the designer that will say, for example, "there is a sword in there, it's called this and that, and it is epic". The stats from the sword will be scaled automatically to fit your current level but be super-powerful still. That's pretty cool because you are rewarded with a very powerful sword, instead of having something on you that is brilliant but that you cannot use until you've levelled up more.

In some cases that's still the case; we don't auto-generate everything, but in some cases we do and it's pretty cool because it guarantees an awesome piece of gear that you'll be able to use instantly. You don't want to feel like you should have waited to earn the item - the point here is to make you keep going so that you always get better and better instead of aiming for that one legendary sword (I keep saying sword but it's for armour too and other things)

I think this quells some of the fears people have...

1. The item you find is still super powerful. So you won't end up with something that "becomes crap" or that you wasted your time finding.

2. Not everything will auto-scale. Meaning that there's probably still some amazing pieces of loot to be found that you can "tell your friend about".

 

[zkorejo]

Maybe it wont be as bad when we play, as it sounds now. I will reserve my judgement until I play the game to see how it turns out... but still.. I would much rather wait and level up to use an amazing sword (another reason to level up if you have a nice weapon waiting to be used) instead of playing with a down-scaled one.

I just hope this down-scaling wont apply to the weapon schematics.

 

[misho8723]

This system would be great, if that downleveling of items would only happen if you pick them up and START using them.. in a game full of choices, this would be another choice - I'm going to wait till I am at the level as the weapon (item) or if I'm going to use it right now, even though it's not going to be as powerful as it can be if I wait till my level would match with the level of that weapon (item).. tough choices to make

 

[MaKaan70]

I've been thinking about it, and this new system isn't that bad at all. I see this like a reward for your skill for killing a monster 10 levels above you ( @Vigilance.492 example ). And the weapon scale down to your lvl, so Geralt will get a excellent weapon to continue leveling without being so much powerful.

 

[Mohasz]

Maybe it wouldn't be the most elegant solution but it would be nice to have the option to decide whether we want an object down-scaled or not. The game should warn you when you try to equip the item that it will be scaled down. Or have an option to turn auto-scaling completely off...?

 

[Tuco]

Level scaling loot is a TERRIBLE design choice and a mistake.

I just read this bit from an interview with GameTrailers:

You won’t find items you can’t use because you’re too low level. They will automatically scale down to your level if they’re too high for you. For instance the damage of a weapon will be lower, even if they will keep their “cool” elements like setting elements on fire for instance. Once you pick up an item, its stats are set, so it won’t scale back up to its original stats. That said, you’ll always get better loot as you move forward anyway. There’s no need to wait to be the right level before you get an item.

Now, let me be clear about this: I won't ask developers to change this and I know perfectly well it's way too late to reconsider aspects of the game design's at this point.
I just wanted to vent, because as the thread title subtly suggests, I consider autoscaling loot atrociously bad design in a RPG.

It's terrible because it's immersion breaking and it doesn't make much sense; because it makes successive playthrough where you could plan ways to get powerful equipment early on far less entertaining; because it hurts internal consistency; because it will constantly harm and trivialize the joy of reaching your reward with the knowledge it could have been better if you were few levels higher... and so on..

Seriously, there have been features so far with which I agreed to a higher or lesser degree, but this has to be the first one I read about that manages to genuinely kill a bit of my excitement for the game.
When CDPR talked about "finding secret Witcher hideouts with cool rare equipment stored" I was figuring in my head scenarios far more exciting than "Oh, and whatever you'll find there will just autoscale so the early you get stuff, the worse it gets".

This, the idea of "we absolutely need to prevent the player from getting items he can't use yet", is a textbook case of "solution in search of its problem".
You aren't solving any actual issue with it (as I really don't think you'll find a single genuine RPG lover who hates finding powerful items he'll have to wait a bit to use) and actually creating one which is far more annoying.

If you really perceived it as an issue, it would have been a far smarter approach to design your loot to be not so determining to your power level, rather than make it scale.
Or, you know, the even simpler solution: just get rid of level requirements all together, and let the players enjoy the chance to just become very powerful early on if they knew how to.

 

[sharpappple]

ANY kind of scaling, itemscaling or enemyscaling whatsoever, completely ruins the persistence of the gameworld for me. The gameworld shouldnt adapt around you, you should adapt to the gameworld. People talk about stuff in games, and if you tell your friends about that awesome sword you found in a cave it should also remain aweseome when they go there and find it and not become crap because they picked it up at the wrong level. thats a completely unintuitive gamebalance measurement and i am absolutely not okay with it.

I really thought you guys would have figured it out due to the fact that you went against enemy levelscaling, and now you unleash this, sorry, SHIT upon us?!? because people want to equip new swords every damn levelup? are we playing diablo or a witcher game? why not use a system like in gothic where you couldnt use the best swords from the beginning, but you could invest your learning points in attributes based on the loot you find so you can wield that aweseme sword sooner than later? or maybe use the dark souls system where you only unleash the full potential of the sword when you got the right stats to properly wield it? all of those solutions would be better than your current solution.


sorry for the harsh words.... i still love you guys, but i am madly pissed.

this could easily be fixed if we asked for an option to disable the scaling on harder difficulties. any way this system might not be too bad, it just depends on how it is used and to what degree the stats of weapons will change to adapt to the players current stats.

though I agree with you that the game world should be persistent, especially since the believability of a setting can be altered by a systems treatment of the player. these kinds of systems if present should remain under the hood, and when they are obvious make you realize that you are special, and this does damage to a sense of place because the inference is the setting has no authority. the player is important just for existing in the world and so the world revolves around you, when it should be the other way round. you notice it most and are repelled by it in repeated random encounters, in games like RDR, ACU and TES V, that make the artificiality of the game abundantly clear. CDPR showed that they did know this though, I remember in an interview hearing that they rejected the idea of a "game director" (used in valve in l4d to make sure the player is enjoying themselves, encountering enemies at good intervals as well as weapons) so this is a bit of a surprise to hear about this system.

the changing of weapon stats might not be such a problem though if it is fairly limited. it should only drop a weapons required level to a small degree and shouldn't change the stats for weapons that are more unique or for higher levels. though it would simply be better that they not change at all, but I can understand that this is a helpful system for newcomers, and for a new audience maybe it should be there, but not for most of us.

 

[val.mitev]

This system would be great, if that downleveling of items would only happen if you pick them up and START using them.. in a game full of choices, this would be another choice - I'm going to wait till I am at the level as the weapon (item) or if I'm going to use it right now, even though it's not going to be as powerful as it can be if I wait till my level would match with the level of that weapon (item).. tough choices to make

Items stats are determined when you pick items up, this is the way to do it. It doesn't make sense to pick something, see one set of stats and when you equip it, see them change to something else.
If there are enough gear, then it won't matter even if they downscale some items, after all you can also upgrade them or just find new stuff that is better.

What I'm more interested in is how they will handle some special items, like named swords that are supposed to be awesome, will they scale? Will they become available when it makes sense, like a quest reward from the main story line or in a similar sense, to be able to get them in an area that also becomes available later on as the story moves forward.

 

[Tuco]

Items stats are determined when you pick items up, this is the way to do it. It doesn't make sense to pick something, see one set of stats and when you equip it, see them change to something else.

Actually, it could, if done properly.
There are games that let you use items of a higher level with a penalty to their stats until you reach the right one.
Still not a fan, but it would be SO MUCH BETTER than just having items that are more and more "nerfed" the early you get them.

P.S. I'm not sure which Mod decided to move my previous reply into this thread, but I really don't think "level requirements for items" and "level scaling loot" are the same topic at all.