CP77 Gameplay Lenght for Each Class and Delivery Model?

[cmdr_silverbolt]

100% agree. Sandbox world, storyline, gameplay and the lethal Cyberpunk 2020 system should come first.

I don't think it's an either or scenario. We don't have either plot development or character development in movies, one component is not sacrificed for the sake of another, and it doesn't make sense to do that in games. Graphical fidelity is not unnecessary stuff, and we've been hypnotized by lazy or uninspired developers to think that.

Let's stop thinking of graphical fidelity as optional at this point- the movie industry hasn't abandoned synchronous sound and dialogue since it was introduced in the 30s, and similarly it doesn't make sense to go back in technological progress for games.

The poll mentioned something about ultra graphs so that's why it needs to be said: graphical fidelity is not optional.

And I really hope the in-game visuals match the ones in the Trailer for this game in terms of aesthetics and stylization. So yeah, I wouldn't like extreme cel shading either, i.e. cartoony visuals.

 

[Decatonkeil]

I don't think it's an either or scenario. We don't have either plot development or character development in movies, one component is not sacrificed for the sake of another, and it doesn't make sense to do that in games. Graphical fidelity is not unnecessary stuff, and we've been hypnotized by lazy or uninspired developers to think that.

Let's stop thinking of graphical fidelity as optional at this point- the movie industry hasn't abandoned synchronous sound and dialogue since it was introduced in the 30s, and similarly it doesn't make sense to go back in technological progress for games.

The poll mentioned something about ultra graphs so that's why it needs to be said: graphical fidelity is not optional.

And I really hope the in-game visuals match the ones in the Trailer for this game in terms of aesthetics and stylization. So yeah, I wouldn't like extreme cel shading either, i.e. cartoony visuals.

I think realism (i won't go on the ultra or not route because I don't really know what it implies) is the best choice for this game. That's not to say I don't like other artstyles or that I can't be bored of everyone aiming at the same, that is visual fidelity.

I think the Cyberpunk setting should be one that is perceived in an objective way... when possible, that's why I think realism imposes itself. That's why when we think high fantasy we are more forgiving with armors that aren't even supposed to be worn by a person, color, etc. and for low fantasy we think more grime, dirt, chainmail and little armor. I wish though that someone tried to take low fantasy really low, to a point where magic isn't as much special effects and it's more the suggestion of a charlatan or maybe just suggestion enhanced by a desperate situation the victim is in.

So summing up, graphical fidelity is optional in our day and age, more for some cases than for others. For CP I do prefer graphical fidelity as you do, not so sure about it being mandatory or the only way, though, but it's the way they're doing it.

And "lazy" and "uninspired" are aspects that can stack on the same person, and this person can very well be a developer, but I don't think that's the problem usually. Lack of inspiration could be attributed to repeating the same artstyle that's been done over and over and poor textures and lack of polygons don't automatically mean lazyness. They're sometimes sacrifices worth making when you have to get your story out and don't have the mediums or support, and people that can afford higher end machines have something to rejoice for when gamemaking gets democratized. Lazy also implies the person "doing the work" and doesn't take into account prohibitive release dates imposed on them or cutting corners.

 

[wisdom000]

and for low fantasy we think more grime, dirt, chainmail and little armor. I wish though that someone tried to take low fantasy really low, to a point where magic isn't as much special effects and it's more the suggestion of a charlatan or maybe just suggestion enhanced by a desperate situation the victim is in..

If you were close I would totally invite you to our Warhammer 2nd edition or Epic RPG games...

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

If you were close I would totally invite you to our Warhammer 2nd edition or Epic RPG games...

WFRP 1st ed was much better IMO

But why don't you Skype him into it?

 

[Decatonkeil]

If you were close I would totally invite you to our Warhammer 2nd edition or Epic RPG games...

Yeah, right, I always thought of Warhammer as a more gritty setting, and I knwo even in the miniatures some fans are complaining that the latest figs look more warcrafty, more high fantasy... although the very early figures and the orks and goblins maybe always were... I had also heard about the gritty nature of Warhammer RPG with elements like injuries and their descriptions. Magic I can't tell that much. I've been to Warhammer (fantasy-strategy) games and I suppose it comes down to the kind of imagination you have... and I imagined it low fantasy maybe suggestioned by the illustrations of the army books.

About the Skype, It all depends on the times, the time... and me installing Skype. If the time of airing of that live streaming with Mr Pondsmith means where you'd be playing it's like 12 full hours of difference from where I am :S. So yeah, hello from 12 hours into the future. Time works like that, right?

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

So summing up, graphical fidelity is optional in our day and age, more for some cases than for others. For CP I do prefer graphical fidelity as you do, not so sure about it being mandatory or the only way, though, but it's the way they're doing it.

And "lazy" and "uninspired" are aspects that can stack on the same person, and this person can very well be a developer, but I don't think that's the problem usually. Lack of inspiration could be attributed to repeating the same artstyle that's been done over and over and poor textures and lack of polygons don't automatically mean lazyness. They're sometimes sacrifices worth making when you have to get your story out and don't have the mediums or support, and people that can afford higher end machines have something to rejoice for when gamemaking gets democratized. Lazy also implies the person "doing the work" and doesn't take into account prohibitive release dates imposed on them or cutting corners.

Hmm, let me clarify what I mean by graphical fidelity- it's the inherent "polished" look of a game, and yes sometimes that means adding more polygons. The fact to the matter is that the technology and resources for creating "polished" games exists, and if you expect people to respect or like you as a designer or developer, then there's no excuse for not using it.

It doesn't matter if the reason is lack of knowledge, resources or time- these are not valid excuses for putting out a half-assed product on the market and expecting people to approve of your work, or to pay you an appreciable sum of money for it.

We have to make these distinctions, or otherwise our game market will be inundated with crap games under the guise of being "retro".

And let's note one thing please- no other industry wants to leap back in terms of technology except for the games industry. This behavior comes from the mentality that graphical fidelity is just looks man, and we need to not be so superficialz.

Ironically, people who say this are being incredibly superficial themselves because they minimize the potential afforded by improvement of graphical fidelity. The fact is that the inherent interactivity of games, their defining feature, can be significantly complemented by improved graphical fidelity.

I also don't understand why we should be lenient towards game developers while judging their product; would you be lenient towards a writer or a movie director, because these guys have lack of knowledge, and time and budget constraints as well.

OT- CP2077 should just try to maintain the visuals and aesthetics we observe in the trailer.

 

[Sardukhar]

"Just try"?! That's was a CGI trailer. Yes, it would be lovely if the game was that pretty. If they give up even a quality hour of main story to maintain that level of pretty, I say poor choice. Because, yeah, I cannot think of a single game that was memorable to me for the graphics. First ten minutes of Far Cry? Maybe?

Every favourite game I have is story and gameplay. I love me some good graphics, but they are third or fourth or fifth in terms of what matters to me.

Game I'm looking forward to the most in the next few months: Shadowrun Returns. How will I ever live without better graphics? I do not know.

Also, it is just looks. I'm not being incredibly superficial - it's really just looks. That's all.

 

[Garrison72]

Agree with CMDR. Games are a visual medium. And I swear some gamers take pride in the notion the medium can somehow rise above this. It can't, not as a whole. Movies, books and art all look forward, not back. Besides, if high end graphics are so expensive, as is the common argument, then why are 'small time' devs like CDPR and FWH positively mopping the floor with guys like Infinity Ward, Ubisoft, Rockstar, Bioware etc? Not just in art design, but pure grahical fidelity. Keep in mind, TW2 was around 11 million USD to make and TW3 is on budget for 14 million. Pennies for the big boys in the industry.

I'm not saying gameplay isn't important but I don't buy the graphics are just eye candy argument.

 

[Decatonkeil]

Movies not looking backwards is why everything special effects is CGI and why you see practical effects like (well done) puppets and makeup which have a certain reality and materiality, that's why their making offs are so boring: "computers, the end". And yeah, every now and then you see your Guillermo del Toro movie, and I know some things can only be done with computers... hell! I know computers themselves are a cheaper way to do some of these things, it sometimes democratizes production! You can have budget 0 space operas thanks to them, you don't need a workshop to make spaceship miniatures, attrezzo... but most of the time CGI, and badly integrated one at that is overused.

We are also missing out on "hand"drawn, "traditional", 2D, "traced" animation, because everyone wants to go the pixar way and always for the wrong reasons (the superficial and wrong idea that pixar movies are successful because they're CGI). There's things that can't be done in 3D.

Why am I talking live action movies? Because they show us why not looking back can sometimes be a bad thing. Why animated movies? Because the same applies and also, because neither animation nor videogames will ever be live action and so they don't need to aim at this. It's always a matter of artistic choice that should decide which aesthetic you want to use. Which better conveys the ideas you want to transmit.

I think fantasy (or high fantasy) can make a better use of stylization as those are not worlds of reason, of objectivity. It's like when you look at an old bestiary, not one of monsters, but one of the first sightings of say, african animals by europeans and then you compare it to the "absolute" truth and objectivity of a photograph of one.

So don't get me wrong. I didn't start this argument because I don't want CP2077 to give us graphical fidelity: I do, I know it's what we're getting, I want to see how this world is, make it as comparable to the way I perceive reality as I don't think I'll live to see things like that in real life and as safely as I will in front of my screen, I want it to reflect that mentality of objectivity as it wouldn't be a world of superstition but one of science. I started it in order to give my perspective on the bigger issue. There's also other kinds of fidelity that technology can give us, like fidelity with the image the gamemakers had in mind in the first place.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

It's about priorities:

Gameplay is more important the eye candy.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Uh, wait. This argument needs to make a distinction between graphical fidelity, aka polish, and aesthetics or stylization, aka art style. It doesn't matter what the art style of a game is as long as it has the polish of being a product made with tender, loving care.

That's my whole stress- it's unacceptable to undervalue the graphical fidelity of a game in favor of its other components.

There are some developers who have ingrained the idea that graphics are superficial, and that gameplay takes priority above them. I sometimes think this line of thinking was started by bitter developers who couldn't make a technologically improved product relative to their competitors.

But here's what I am saying: both aspects, graphical fidelity and gameplay, are equal and one should not be sacrificed for another (this goes both ways).

A game doesn't need a story to be a game, so that's why I didn't include that in there, but if a game has a story, then all three aspects must be treated equally.

Lack of time, resources, and skill are NOT good excuses for making a poor game in any aspect. And as gamers who care about the industry, and also as responsible consumers, we shouldn't accept these excuses.

The other problem is that gamers themselves don't make distinctions between video games and interactive narratives; both of these genres have their own expectations, and must be judge with their respective measuring sticks. But that's a story for another thread.

 

[wisdom000]

I most definitely make a distinction, and rail against it pretty hard...

 

[braindancer12]

It's about priorities:

Gameplay is more important the eye candy.

yeah but the good mix make it at the end: gameplay + graphics + music (always important)

 

[garothmaster]

Back to the discussion, I still go for 1000h+ behemoth

 

[TraderVic]

20-30 hours of campaign WITHOUT filler rubbish would be more than enough. Length doesn't make a good game and the chances are, the longer the game is the more padding and recycling of assets it will have.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

20-30 hours of campaign WITHOUT filler rubbish would be more than enough. Length doesn't make a good game and the chances are, the longer the game is the more padding and recycling of assets it will have.

Play through times for The Witcher and The Witcher 2 are are between 12 hours and 72 hours each, averaging about the 40 hour mark.

The Witcher 3 is supposed to have 100+ hours of gameplay including all side quests.

I would be happy with an average of 50 hours for Cyberpunk, with more through DLC and community content. I would be happier with 100+ hours though.

 

[TraderVic]

Personally, I would prefer a shorter campaign with REAL replay value. Real, difficult choices to make etc. so you simply cannot do everything in one playthrough like in most RPGs. Playing a Solo and a Fixer should make for really different experiences, not just superficial changes in skills and small differences in dialogue.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Personally, I would prefer a shorter campaign with REAL replay value. Real, difficult choices to make etc. so you simply cannot do everything in one playthrough like in most RPGs. Playing a Solo and a Fixer should make for really different experiences, not just superficial changes in skills and small differences in dialogue.

Personally, I hope for a longer game that aslo has real replay value, with role choice and decisions making big differences to the gameplay.

 

[merctroop]

I hope they don't use a class system. Instead they should use a character development system that allows players to pick and choose what they want, and build up the character they want to play. It shouldn't be a issue of per a class, but how much play time a style of playing has with in the world. Hardest and biggest test for the dev is to make a RPG that can be played entirely combat focused, or entirely with out the player engaging in any form of combat.

 

[Sardukhar]

Issue with replay is that it's still the same story. Which I've played. And as good as that story may be, I'd rather not replay it, even with serious changes due to Role or choice in game, until the first experience has faded. Otherwise it really feels like a replay.

So I'd pick a longer game, a big, BIG main story and lots of sub stories, perhaps ones dependent on Role or influenced heavily by Role.