Does it say anywhere that there is only ONE amulet in the entire world? In fact, if there was only one amulet ever made, then Geralt would KNOW that Alvin was the GM. However, Geralt doesn't act this way, meaning that the existence of another demeritum amulet is probable., thus meaning that it is probably that the GM is wearing a different amulet.Also, I do not remember the GM repeating everything I told him. Firstly I told Alvin not to be a witcher. I also told him that we make our own destiny, each man chooses his own path, yet the GM is always talking about the fate of the world and the destiny that awaits. I also told him that the non-humans were fighting for their rights and for a better society, and the GM certainly did not repeart this back to me. Finally, could you even come up with a probable time line of events if Alvin WAS the GM? At what stage does he jump into the future? If Alvin jumps into the future at age 6 or whatever, then how exactly is the Order of the Flaming Rose already expanding under the leadership of GM? Before Alvin even MEETS Geralt the flaming rose is very active, under the leader ship of the GM. The game doesn't hint that Alvin is the GM, many people are just extrapolating this based on some fairly tenous evidence. There are many people like myself who believe that the game absolutely doesn't strongly hint this at all.Claw said:
So let's see your points. ;Dyesterday said:
Aww come on. Imagine that. How can you resist of the temptation to change your OWN PAST !?yesterday said:
And ? GM and young Alvin coexist at the same time of course.yesterday said:
The GM never appeared in Geralt's past i e. in Sapkowski books. But Geralt saves Alvin's life in Act 1.And actually the dialog at Act V is quite ironic:yesterday said:
Clearly.
Yes, Alvin play with the other children. "Kill the Elf" is a child game like playing Cowboy and Indian. And you're right, it's a sign of the times; It shows that there were a strong and diffuse hate against the nonhumans everywhere in society, even in child's game. And it greatly influence Alvin's personality. Nonhumans are at worst disgusting, at best an inconvenience.But again some dialog are soooo ironic when replaying the game :yesterday said:
And a bit later :
;D
And that was the brilliant part. If the GM has no underlying hatred against nonhuman, it's because you taught him so in the past.Just before Alvin jump in time at the end of Act IV, he ask you a question about the elves. You can choose between three answer.yesterday said:
The game save your answer and in the final confrontation, the GM response change according to your lessons (G1 lead to GM1, G2 to GM2 etc.)
There are no mention of cloning in any Sapkwoski's book I read. However time travel is mentioned. It's said that only the most powerful source can do that sort of stuff.yesterday said:
Yes, there are probably other amulet like that in the world. Dimeritium is a well-know, but very rare metal which represses the transfer of magical energy. So this kind of amulet are typically given to Source who never learn how to control their innate magical abilities in a school of sorcery, like Alvin. Otherwise such power quickly consume them and drive them mad. About the reaction of Geralt, I'm not sure Geralt fully realize that he killed his own adopted child. But he have perhaps some vague suspicion. When he talk to Dandelion just after the battle he said something along the line of "Now Jacques d'Aldsberg is dead... or whoever he was." And that was brilliant. For Geralt it's unclear, but for us, viewer it is. I mean just look at the direction. The story reaches climax, Geralt kills the GM and suddenly we got a 10 second close-up on the amulet. Do you think that was some kind of gratuitous shot, with no meaning at all ?yesterday said:
A probable time-line ? Yep easily. But before, I just want to point out two things :1) Alvin never jump into the future. He has vision of the future. It's the same in the books, all the descendant of Lara Dorren have strong magical ability and have vision of the future. Oh, And there is another ironic stuff here. In the book, you learn that a long time ago Ithlinne, a legendary elf oracle made a prophecy, which predict the end of the world and the extinction of the elf race. (it's the famous Ithlinne's prophecy. Alvin made the same prophecy at act 1). So the elves started some sort of genetic program (forced mating) to create a child with extraordinary magical power. This child was supposed to find a way to prevent all the horrible stuff mentioned in the prophecy and save the elves from extinction. But something went wrong with one of the elf of this program : Lara Dorren. Se was bonded with an human instead of an elf , thus shattering all plans regarding her offspring. The funny thing is that Alvin, a source and a descendant of Lara Dorren, will indeed try to prevent the White Frost, the ice age mentioned in the prophecy, BUT murdering all elves in the process ;D2) There is only one way to have time travel story without crazy time paradox, multiple dimension, time loop or big headache : it's when you have only ONE timeline and when this timeline is fixed. You can't change the past. You can't change the flow of time. That's mean that if you want to travel in the past to kill your grand-parents and create a big paradox : 1) You fail to kill them somehow, otherwise you couldn't exist. 2) Not only you fail, but also contribute of the events which lead to the day when younger-you decided to travel in time. Ok, now the time line. (0) is the birth of Alvinyesterday said:
around -50) Alvin, a scared six-year-old child pop up somewhere in the world.He is alone. Geralt, his paternal figure, has abandoned him. Triss is not here anymore to teach him how to control his magical ability. He can only rely on his amulet and we know that's not enough, because at the end of act IV he start to have vision again, even wearing the amulet.(Between -50 and 6) So, we can assume that during his entire life, Alvin was bombarded with nightmarish vision of the future. These visions drove him quite mad, and urged him to become someone with great power and influence to prevent the White Frost. He didn't want to become a witcher anymore, because he doesn't trust any witcher after Geralt abandon him. So, he decided to become like this "Grand Master", this "invincible knight", another hero of his childhood. (For evidence, a quote from Alvin playing "Kill The Elf" at act 4 : "Take that! And that! You're dead! I'm the Grand Master of the Order, an invincible knight!"). And he will become the GM, literally. (0) Birth of Alvin, a source and a descendant of Lara Dorren.(around 6) Events of the Witcher game. The GM locates young Alvin and try to capture him. I don't think he want him any harm, quite the contrary ! He probably try to protect Alvin from these nightmarish visions. Of course he failed, because you can't change the flow of time, and everything in the game later lead to the point where Alvin freak out and jump in the past at Act IV.Wow that's great. I have continued to look into dialogs with the editor and there are actually THREE other "lesson" you can gave to Alvin and which influence the final dialog with the GM!!One about the purpose of being a witcher. One about the vision of Alvin . And one about Destiny.It's a bit tragic actually. Alvin will twist every piece of knowledge you gave him. He will twist them to the point of justifying his insane "Grand Plan"An example among other :If you said to young Alvin at act IV about his visions :G: "Your visions are a gift, not a curse. It's up to you to use them for good."This advice become in the mouth of the now "Grand master"GM :"Many times you insisted special gifts should be used for just causes. II chose the most just of causes - saving millions of lives." I think when Alvin jump into the past, he found himself completely lost, alone, and feel abandoned, so he start to reject everything Geralt said to him.Look at this dialog, when Geralt met the GM for the first time at Act V :
Wow. I wish the developers had take more time to develop the Geralt-Alvin relationship, because that's quite interesting. It's the first RPG I can recall which emphasize a father-son relationship.
Wow. I wish the developers had take more time to develop the Geralt-Alvin relationship, because that's quite interesting. It's the first RPG I can recall which emphasize a father-son relationship.Really? Doesn't even hint? The very first words out of Alvin's mouth in Chapter I are the prophecy of Itlina, Hen Ichaer, End of Frosty Days, etc. and so on. How's that for a hint?This is just basic storytelling. Time travel always throws up nasty conundrums that can't be resolved with logic, that's why it stays in Fantasy and SciFi lit. We're told right at the end that the amulet is the same, but somehow older. We're told that Alvin can travel through space and time when he is upset. This is not a random detail. When you think back to all the stuff Alvin has said in the game about Witchers, killing elves, end of days, etc., It is obvious that the story is going for a standard "Aha" moment at the conclusion. It's interesting, it's entertaining, it works. No need to pick at it to death.yesterday said:
I think it's obvious enough to say Alvin is Grand Master..But let's focus on the assassin from the outro.It's definitely some Witcher or maybe new mutant. I bet it's not Berengar.I see 3 theories:1st - someone is still making mutants (open path to Witcher's sequel?)2nd - some surviving perfect mutants, which weren't shown in game (another path to sequel?)3rd - in beginning of game you can hear Geralt talking with other witchers about 2nd Witcher school. The Snake school. Remember? Take a peek on the assassin... He has snake medalion! (or something like this, it's visible in official assassin artwork) so maybe witcher from other school? Another reason why it's a witcher - remember when Berengar told Geralt about Geralt's fighting flaw? About that Geralt probably had crushed leg and he's discovering his crotch in battle? Look at the intro and see how Geralt is kicked directly into his crotch.. Only another witcher would see this small flaw and use it.
Don't forget about the King of the Wild Hunt's warning way back in chapter 1. He said something like "I will take from you something you hold dear but did not realize you had."I literally had his voice echoing in my head when I picked up GM's necklace.
heres my tldr version: Alvin isnt the only person with the powers and seeing the prophecy. Alvin is blonde n blue eyed. The guy at the end is a mutant or a witcher. but yes because we dont have an official response we cant figure that out and it leaves us looking for clues and to make our own theory. Which is great imo... heres my pov.Alvin remebers the things you teach him. I did not teach alvin that the elves are fighting a lost cause. I taught him that theyre underpressure ect. I taught alvin well! he wouldnt be a dellusional freak like the Grandmaster.k based of the dates of the new campaigns the extras. Geralt is really really really really old, he dont age? I thought that Alvin might have been the grandmaster but i came to these realizations. alvin wouldnt know "When" geralt started off. and if alvin went back in time, its a bit rediculous that he would need geralt or geralt will wait so long to try to assasinate foltest, so the whole alvin being the grandmaster has to be dismissed in my book. I dont think the grand master really has the power of time like alvin and i dont think time like triss said is the right word for it, i mean this is magic now ppl. he could have been on the other side of the world, in a different uh timezone? time of day ect. Alvin is a decendant of Lara, the grandmaster probably is/has similar or some sorta superpowered lineage like alvin. Alvin cant be the only person with his lineage... they wanted to mate Lara with someone superpowered like her dontcha know.So Alvin teleported somewhere in the world, i dont think in time nessasarily. So the guy that tried to kill the king, he has the eyes of a witcher, I dont think he really is Geralt or looks like geralt because hed simply just wait till geralt leaves walk in the king recognizing hes geralt and kill the king. The guy who went after the king i think hes a mutant or just a witcher. there are other witcher schools.
Alvin is GM. No need to speculate about that. It just is.The assassin:1. Witcher from another school; just a random cool outro movie or a setup for the sequel.2. Some Salamandra-created witcher that Geralt never found out about (I doubt this).3. Geralt's 'clone' (I doubt this also, although the game does hint that Geralit may be a sort of clone; Vincent Meiss calls witchers 'Golems'. Maybe, maybe not; but in that set of dialogue the game really seems to hint at it as explanation for how Geralt came back to life.)4. Berengar or Leo or Lambert. (I seriously doubt this.)5. The King (Get real.)6. Assassin = Alvin.The conversation you have with Alvin at the stone circle in the fields suggests it.It's there he says, "I want to be a knight or a witcher." Those are his two choices. During the game we got to see Alvin become the Knight in the form of the Grand Master; maybe the outro shows Alvin as Witcher, Alvin in another manifestation.If it's not that, my money is on another school of witchers.
i read all of u guy's say.40 page of all the same things. Alvin is th GM.we can t say that, we can just speculate about that, cause it is not saying some where that he is the GM. There is just a few things that let's us think he is the GM. so maybe he is, maybe not.That the kind of things i particulary like in game like the witcher, cause u can think what u want with some information, but with no certainty. That the way people speak about a game, why people like a game, cause there is a story write, and some kind of story u can imagine ( like in book)the assasins look familliary to geralt, but in the witcher, we don't see all geralt life, so everything is possible. I think it s probably a way to introduce witcher 2 or addon.
There are several things that just point to Alvin not being the Grandmaster for me.Why does the GM pursue Alvin when he is in the elven camp? Doesn't he know that a major fight will happen there? If he was Alvin then, he would realize his life was in danger between the Order and the Elves. I cant see a motive of self-preservation hereWhy did he have Salamandra try to capture Alvin? Was he going to capture himself? I dont see a motive of self-preservation here.Alvin diplayed super telepathy reading the minds of many elves in a language he did not understand. This is something the GM never does. And the GM displays complete suprise when Geralt defeats Javed, unlike someone who has very strong divinitive powers. It seems to me the GM had no telpathy at all, or he would have used it and trained it to become even greater. He would have become so strong in telepathy he would have bent mens minds to his will without speaking a word. For example, the King may have been mind melded like we saw in Lord of the Rings with the GMs own version of leechcraft. Also, the GM wouldn't have need for a mirror to communicate with Javed, he could have done it telepathically and left no trace at all that he was involved with Salamandra.After you defeat Javed you can ask Triss questions about the GM. She tells you straight up that it isn't "uncommon" for a secterian fanatic like the GM to wield powerful magic due to his strong religous beliefs. He learns magic on his own and trained himself but the magic is considered 'wild' just like a source.When you meet Grandmaster in the swamps he says he spys on Geralt all the time through the use of his magic. He mentions his interest in Geralt's adventures.When you tell Alvin "your powers are a gift, its up to yo to use them for good""the elves are fighting for freedom, they have them up against a wall, they found no other way""we never get sick, but then theres pain..."The Grandmaster mentions only 1 of these.He says "I didn't ask for this gift" "Many times you insisted Special gifts should be used for just causes"Firstly, the GM could have found out about this by his various techniques of spying on Geralt. And Secondly, you told Alvin to use it for good, not just causes. The necklace is something that is common to hinder both nightmares and other wild magics. GMs magic was wild due to being untrained and being a religous fanatic, Alvins was wild because he was a source.The GM was very charismatic with many followers, and Alvin was pretty much hated by the other kids and thought to be wierd.The GM nose is bent at a 70 degree angle down and Alvins nose is bent upwards at 10 degree angle. The nostrels are also completely different, and Alvin doesn't have the bent bridge that the GM has. Their hair is different color, their chins and cheeks dont match up and their eyes are different color. The GMs head is oval and Alvins is round. So facial features are no indication they are the same at all.The GM was a vegabond before joining the Order. The motive of Alvin traveling back in time to become a vegabond for several years makes little sense.Triss has you set things around the city to detect and find the 'source' You end up finding out that Alvin is the source. If the GM is also Alvin and vice versa he would have been detected as a 'source' aswell. There is no mention that the amulet can prevent sources from being detected at all. Also, Alvin never displayed the ability to warp a room into his own little playground like the GM could. I suspect that if Alvin could make his own playground well, he probably would never come out of it and the other kids would love him. "Hey lets go back to the waterpark!" "No please I wanna go to the zoo this time!"Also Alvin had the ability to travel through time using a different type of teleportation you see from any other spellcaster in the game. Triss and Javeds and all the rest are the exact same portal which teleports you to a different location but not through time. GM never displayed an ability to warp through time at all. If the GM was Alvin he would have diplayed his uncanny ability to warp through time during fights as displacement effect.I remember Alvin saying 'don't beat me like that priest from the order did when he was drunk' Well we all know the reverend was a mean man, but I had no idea until I talked to Alvin when Geralt was drunk. At anyrate, I find it unlikely that Alvin would go back in time and recreate the Order of the Fllaming Rose when he was abused by a member from that order. This is like an alter boy being abused by a cardinal, only to travel back in time to found the Catholic church at the Council of Nicea. That would be very strange motive indeed.Anyhow, your mileage may differ.
I don't know whether Alvin is the GM or not. It doesn't feel right to me, but I acknowledge that that isn't a logical argument! What I love about the whole Alvin/GM thing is that people are so passionate about the question! Smart people come up with reasonable arguments for both sides, and if you look over this thread, there's been a lot of player thought devoted to this question. There are games you play where you forget about them five minutes after you're done. And then there's The Witcher, where people debate who the GM is and who the assassin is for months after playing. THAT is really cool!
What I love about the whole Alvin/GM thing is that people are so passionate about the question! Smart people come up with reasonable arguments for both sides, and if you look over this thread, there's been a lot of player thought devoted to this question. There are games you play where you forget about them five minutes after you're done. And then there's The Witcher, where people debate who the GM is and who the assassin is for months after playing. THAT is really cool!I was the first to say that Alvin is NOT the GM, anyway cant wait for an expansion or the withcer 2 or a prologue or whatever!!!! just want to know who the hell is the guy sent to kill Foltest!!! (Radovid sent him?? hmmmm)
Exactly. Perfect time for a Neil Gaiman quote (I think): "It's the mystery that lingers, not the answer to it"Corylea said:I don't know whether Alvin is the GM or not. It doesn't feel right to me, but I acknowledge that that isn't a logical argument!
Here's another possibility to account for the Alvin/GM/Outtro mystery. It's arguably more complete than the time travel explanation, in that it accounts for both the Alvin/GM and Outtro mysteries. It's based on various clues in the game. In a nutshell, Alvin and the GM are different people, both sources susceptible to visions they cannot control (both wear dimeritium pendants for this reason). The GM has been manipulated by Nilfgaardian mages (not yet identified) who seek to weaken and conquer the Northern Kingdoms. The Scoia'tael are part of the same Nilfgaardian plan. The GM knows what Geralt told Alvin because the GM is a sorcerer and therefore capable of reading Geralt's thoughts (just as Triss can read Geralt's thoughts, and Alvin can hear the Elves' thoughts at Murky Waters). The unidentified Nilfgaardian mages are also responsible for Alvin's visions. The mages seek to add Alvin's magic to the GM's efforts to "save humanity" as part of their attack against Foltest and the Northern Kingdoms. The point of the Outtro assassin ending is that the plot against Foltest and the Northern Kingdoms didn't end with the death of the GM.Following are some of the clues supporting this interpretation.Geralt tells Dandelion that he doesn't know whether the GM's pendant is the same one he gave Alvin. Geralt speculates that the GM may have been wearing the pendant to repel "hostile magic".Alvin and the GM share many of the same disturbing visions. The visions seem to emanate from an outside source.-- Both have visions of Ithlinne's Prophecy (Alvin repeats Ithlinne's Prophesy at the beginning of Act 1; the GM tells Geralt he has dreams every night of icy wastelands and the death of the old civilizations).-- Both have visions that they must act to save humanity. (After Geralt saves Alvin in the fields, Alvin says, in different, non-Alvin voices, "Dh'oine! Look into my eyes - see your death. I don't need to hear this: you're not even human. Now do you see the necessity of this action, no matter the price? Geralt, open your mind."). The GM utters nearly the same words at the end of Frozen Reflections, ("Now do you see the need to act, whatever the price? Geralt, open your eyes, open your mind.")-- In both cases the visions seem to emanate from some outside source. (Alvin speaks in different voices as though spirits are speaking through him). When the GM first reveals his visions to Geralt at the beginning of Frozen Reflections, he tells Geralt he initially doubted the validity of his visions. ("You doubt me? I do not blame you. I had my doubts, too. Yet now my vision is strong.")Both the GM and Alvin have seemingly spiritual visions of Ithlinne's Prophecy. But something is very wrong with this picture because Ithlenne's Prophecy was flat out wrong, and cannot be fulfilled. (The "Elder Blood" Glossary entry states: "... According to the prophecy of the elven diviner Ithlinne, the Child of Elder Blood will one day save the elves from annihilation. However, the last carrier of Aen Hen Ichaer, Lara Dorren aep Shiadhal, bonded with a human instead of an elf, thus shattering all plans regarding her offspring.".) The fact that Alvin and the GM both have nearly identical visions that seem to emanate from some outside source, and include visions of a prophesy that cannot be fulfilled, would indicate that the visions are being planted by hostile magic. The book, Against Nonhumans claims that after Lara Dorren's death, Elven sages devised a plan to achieve the fall of humans. "We will avenge the death of Lara Dorren, we will shed their blood and drown the world in chaos." As the plan was devised after Lara Dorren's death, it would presumably replace the no-longer-possible Prophecy of Ithlinne.The book The Aftermath of the War, as described in the Scoia'tael Glossary entry, claims, "...the Scoia'tael are inspired by Nilfgaard and other powers. The leaders of the rebellion send their people to certain death because they are blind or manipulated."The "Nilfgaard" Glossary entry reports, "Its war with the Northern Kingdoms ended five years ago, yet in spite of the peace treaty, Nilfgaard has failed to give up its claims on the northern territories."The Aftermath of the War further claims that "Nilfgaard still threatens the North. Sorceresses and spies work from the shadows, pulling puppet strings." These Sorceresses in the shadows could be responsible for the Scoia'tael, for Alvin's visions and for the GM's visions (which Geralt views as a madness).Another clue is Count DeWitt. We learn from Thaler that DeWitt is Nilfgaardian. In DeWitt's final confrontation with Geralt just outside the Old Manor, DeWitt tells Geralt, "Align yourself with the masters of a new order - with me, Roderick DeWitt, the future Viceroy of Temeria!" He also tells Geralt that the Salamandra are "...but a means to an end." The GM would have no need for any viceroys to govern conquered Temeria (the GM's plan is to lead the people of Temerians south), and the Salamandra are aligned with the GM. Thus DeWitt is pretty clearly a Nilfgaardian spy and/or mage (he was responsible for the magic that turned Adda back into a striiga.) The actual Grand Plan isn't a plan to save humanity; instead, it's a Nilfgaardian plan to sow chaos and destabilize the Northern Kingdoms, using religious fanatics, Ithlinne's Prophecy, the GM's visions, and the Scoia'tael.The role and meaning of Alvin in the overall plot are the revelations that sources are susceptible to visions; that sources can be a great danger if their inherent power is not properly harnessed; that various bad forces (such as the Salamandra) seek to use the great inherent power of sources for their own ends; and that dimeritium pendants can shield sources from hostile magic. Presumably there will be a role for Alvin in an expansion of The Witcher.Finally, as noted by various comments on this Board, the duel sword style of the Outtro assassin is a style used in the south. The south, in turn, is dominated by the Nilfgaardian Empire. Presumably, witcher-like soldiers and assassins are being trained in the south, probably using secrets stolen from Kaer Morhen. Nilfgaard refused to accept defeat after losing the war five years ago, and still continues its efforts to conquer the Northern Kingdoms despite the GM's defeat.***Hopefully the answer will come in the form of an extensive sequel to CD Projekt's masterpiece, The Witcher.__
Well there a lot of debate on that that I wont go into LOL I see it this way its a opening for a TW2IkuTurso said: