Level scaling ruins the game

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.. because I'm not getting any sense of progress of going from a wanna be merc to a legend (which is theoretically the intended arc).

And when everyone's super. No one will be.
- Syndrome
This. At a certain point, V is supposed to hit legend status and the world should tremble at her approach. Much like the flash back at the start with Johnny attacking Arasaka tower, enemies were nothing unless they surrounded and outnumbered him. And they were top level security.

That's what's missing now, there's no sense of 'hitting the major leagues', it's just this enemy is like the last enemy who will be like the next enemy, and no matter my level or gear getting better, they'll always be like the last enemy.

It makes for a very flat experience. I'm now playing to see the story, not for the sense of progression through it.
 
Arguably, the scaling has made the game irrelevant as soon as people heard it was implemented. emoji.
Yet, somehow a lot of people are playing and the game breaks popularity records, stop dramatizing.

They should tune the skill check values just like for examples car delivery timers but that's about it. It would be dumb to either be forced to farm level 50 to start PL or be dissapointed that PL fixed to a level 20-30 is a joke at 50+.

It's been a while since I discussed Skyrims "scaling", but from memory those games have scaling within brackets not universal and they are 'first contact' locked?
Skyrim scales up but not always down. There are instances (dungeons) that may not scale all the way down and you get a really tough enemy even at level 1... but the higher you got the more changes you get top Draugr variants. In open world your level defines what will spawn around you.
 

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Yet, somehow a lot of people are playing and the game breaks popularity records, stop dramatizing.
Weeks ago, sure. Different story now, though, since people learned how bad the level scaling is.
Stop rationalising with old stats.
 
Since i can't make a thread,

i'm closing in on 3,000 hours in cyberpunk, 74 hours with my current character on a "very hard" playthrough. But with the updates in 2.0, its been a struggle to have fun using power shotguns and the LMGs. I'm using a fresh character reclearing the world before I touch Phantom Liberty. 20 Body, fully invested in shotguns/lmgs & adrenaline, 20 Tech heavily invested in Cyberware, 15 Reflex heavily invested in mobility. The direction the perks and cyberware seem to be pointing me to is "be close to take less damage and pump out more damage" but it is entirely betrayed by the stamina system, idle sway, insane recoil, input delay, animation delays, perks and cyberware that i cant even tell if they are doing anything, and weapons that are so weak and ineffective they cant even make use of level 20 perks.
What exactly is the point of a legendary Defender if an entire magazine often struggles to kill a single random Scav on the side of the road and having the perk Onslaught that will refill 20% of my magazine after neutralizing an enemy... what good is 20% going to do for the next enemy? And the MA70 HB has a similar problem, being so weak and firing so slowly that i feel I'm wasting my time spending 10 seconds tickling 1 enemy to death in the middle of a fight against 3-8 other enemies that are closing... nope i'm dead. All while wasting every bit of stamina so i can't dash away or push to keep fighting. Often with the LMGs once i waste their entire belt killing 1 person, i have to switch to a shotgun. And to have them be any good i need to quick melee them with the 0 Stamina I have. If i can dash close enough to them with the 0 stamina i started with and manage to punch and fire... they are often slightly wounded and i have 0 stamina to get away. And the base movement speed is so slow, i might as well reload the save and save them the trouble. And try another roll of RNG Dismemberment the Placebo shotgun game to pretend shotguns are useful when they accidentally proc the effect that might trick you into thinking they have a purpose.

In previous versions of the game LMGs and Shotguns were Entirely propped up on the crutches of Crafting, Ricochet bonuses, and Berserk's ranged buffs. But now you need to be level 32+ before you can even get some decent Ricochet damage buffs and tiny modifiers on random cyberware. Berserk is now Melee only, when Melee never needed the help (even more true now). And we can't craft the mods or upgrade lmgs along the way to keep their damage relevant. It was surprising in 2.0, how weak Epic weapons were compared to Legendary. But I remained disappointed by how ineffective they continued to be.
Like most of the upgrade system, the perks, cyberware, weapons, and equipment at no point did i ever feel i made any progress. Each attribute and perk point felt like I was spinning my wheels and hoping for more points thinking, maybe this one will make this build viable... then maxing out the skill tree, rarity, and upgrade level and realizing it will never get better.

2.0 ruined the gameplay loop that made it fun. i hope i can find a way to care about the game going forward because i wanted to enjoy the expansion. But the changes might make that impossible.
 
Since i can't make a thread,

i'm closing in on 3,000 hours in cyberpunk, 74 hours with my current character on a "very hard" playthrough. But with the updates in 2.0, its been a struggle to have fun using power shotguns and the LMGs. I'm using a fresh character reclearing the world before I touch Phantom Liberty. 20 Body, fully invested in shotguns/lmgs & adrenaline, 20 Tech heavily invested in Cyberware, 15 Reflex heavily invested in mobility. The direction the perks and cyberware seem to be pointing me to is "be close to take less damage and pump out more damage" but it is entirely betrayed by the stamina system, idle sway, insane recoil, input delay, animation delays, perks and cyberware that i cant even tell if they are doing anything, and weapons that are so weak and ineffective they cant even make use of level 20 perks.
What exactly is the point of a legendary Defender if an entire magazine often struggles to kill a single random Scav on the side of the road and having the perk Onslaught that will refill 20% of my magazine after neutralizing an enemy... what good is 20% going to do for the next enemy? And the MA70 HB has a similar problem, being so weak and firing so slowly that i feel I'm wasting my time spending 10 seconds tickling 1 enemy to death in the middle of a fight against 3-8 other enemies that are closing... nope i'm dead. All while wasting every bit of stamina so i can't dash away or push to keep fighting. Often with the LMGs once i waste their entire belt killing 1 person, i have to switch to a shotgun. And to have them be any good i need to quick melee them with the 0 Stamina I have. If i can dash close enough to them with the 0 stamina i started with and manage to punch and fire... they are often slightly wounded and i have 0 stamina to get away. And the base movement speed is so slow, i might as well reload the save and save them the trouble. And try another roll of RNG Dismemberment the Placebo shotgun game to pretend shotguns are useful when they accidentally proc the effect that might trick you into thinking they have a purpose.

In previous versions of the game LMGs and Shotguns were Entirely propped up on the crutches of Crafting, Ricochet bonuses, and Berserk's ranged buffs. But now you need to be level 32+ before you can even get some decent Ricochet damage buffs and tiny modifiers on random cyberware. Berserk is now Melee only, when Melee never needed the help (even more true now). And we can't craft the mods or upgrade lmgs along the way to keep their damage relevant. It was surprising in 2.0, how weak Epic weapons were compared to Legendary. But I remained disappointed by how ineffective they continued to be.
Like most of the upgrade system, the perks, cyberware, weapons, and equipment at no point did i ever feel i made any progress. Each attribute and perk point felt like I was spinning my wheels and hoping for more points thinking, maybe this one will make this build viable... then maxing out the skill tree, rarity, and upgrade level and realizing it will never get better.

2.0 ruined the gameplay loop that made it fun. i hope i can find a way to care about the game going forward because i wanted to enjoy the expansion. But the changes might make that impossible.
Not sure about LMGs, but about shotguns, maybe you can try to give a shot to Sandevistan instead of berserk (weird I know^^). But before restarting a new playthrough again and to earn few perk points, I used shotgun (Bloody Maria) to level up Solo skill on my Reflex/Tech/Cool build (Body 3, so not especially good with shotguns).
So in addition to my Sandevistan Militech Apogee*, I installed all cyberwares which increase crit chances/decrease recoil and it was quite devastating (and fun^^).

*slow time by 85% for 8s - 30s cooldown, refilled by 20% and +22% stamina each time you kill an enemy. Another good point, you are able to enable it, even if it's not fully reloaded.
 
Yet, somehow a lot of people are playing and the game breaks popularity records, stop dramatizing.

(not me dramatising, but...)
You do have a point. Even detesting/being annoyed by the level scaling, for instance, I'm still playing. I'm putting hours into exploring, seeing if new dialogue popped (I thought I caught some, maybe I was wrong), and now diving through Phantom Liberty (which I will add as a side note, I think so far at least is really really well done - the tone, the area, it feels very good). I'll play through PL, then I'll round out a couple of the other side jobs, I'll do the final main job (maybe once just for fun, if it is, full assault on Arasaka, and then do the new PL one). After that, I don't know if I'll feel like playing it again. That's when, for me, the difference will make a real impact - I've played through many times before, but I genuinely don't know why I would again after this. Maybe mods will sort it out for me? Maybe CDPR will reveal a level-scaling on/off toggle in a future patch.

This is all opinion. My opinion is that my experience is diminished, not improved, by level scaling. For everyone else: YMMV.
Everyone's opinion is valid. Options in a game might accommodate different opinions (eg: playstyles and builds working, keeping people of differing opinions on which build is best happy because they all work), in this case there's no option to get both opinions satisfied. It is what it is.

I genuinely must be missing the magic. I've ploughed perk points into skills, but picking up any weapon, I don't feel like I'm any different with it than I was in the beginning. Maybe the magic is that I'm supposed to be using the less conventional weapons? mono wire or mantis blades? I dunno.
 
Maybe the magic is that I'm supposed to be using the less conventional weapons? mono wire or mantis blades? I dunno.
Definitely not the mantis blades unless I'm experiencing a bug with them that not everyone else is, or unless the relic perk floats your boat enough to make up for it but I haven't gotten it yet. They are slow and do less damage than katanas, and enemies don't seem to recoil at being hit by them often if at all.
 
Berserk is now Melee only, when Melee never needed the help (even more true now).
Oh absolutely, melee is the new broken build. I started with Pistol/Netrunner/Stealth and hated what they did to netrunning, so I switched the Netrunner to Blade. Jeez! If I'm stealthing and don't get a headshot with the pistol, I might as well throw the guns away and draw a blade, as the comparison between the two are like night and day. I use River's pistol when going loud and it does next to nothing unless I'm hitting weakspots or headshots. Blade, on the other hand, is like a flurry of carnage, rapid strikes that down enemies really quickly.

It's sad what they've done to ranged weapons. They obviously wanted us all using Blunt, Blade or Monowire.
 
I agree that the attribute checks are weird. Even in PL, there are some attribute checks that are very low, so I don't understand why it is so difficult to push the trash in front of Brendan. That makes no sense from a gameplay or lore perspective.

The attribute checks are not a major concern for scaling critics. Putting points on strength is not a big deal now because we have so much lvl. The majority of the critics about the scaling are complaining that your character is weak because enemies level up with you, and it's not like an RPG anymore. That is not true at all.

I would say that this is the opposite, now you have to manage your character throughout the entire game. Before that, it was just "One Shot or be totally irrelevant because the zone is too high level". Half of the RPG elements were pointless because of the game's simplicity. As I mentioned earlier, you only needed to buy double jump and one of the arm cyberware to complete the game. The game is more an RPG than before and i really don't understand the "the game is ruined" thing. I would understand if someone is more of an action game player than an RPG game player and is disappointed by the changes, but it's a bit strange to say that now "it's just a shooter. You can't make a difference without investing some time in the game and building up your character." Yeah, it's a bit caricaturial, but for me that sounds like this.

With all the tools that the player has (you always have Sandevistan or some broken Cyberdecks, grenades are more relevant too...). I find this a little bit exagerating. Although the new system is different, I understand that not everyone will like it, but stating that the game is unplayable is, I think, a bit too much.
 
(which I will add as a side note, I think so far at least is really really well done - the tone, the area, it feels very good)

On the upside, dogtown is proving to provide some good enemy encounters.
Except, now another 20 minutes into dogtown, I'm crashing every 5 minutes. That's kinda killing the good vibes I was feelin :(
 
Character progression is a very important element of the RPG genre. It's the journey of your character going from total rookie to master, and traditionally this reflects on the difficulty curve. You start the game with an incompetent character and everything is difficult, then you character become more and more competent and things become increasingly easier. The pre 2.0 Cyberpunk was like this. Your V starts low level and combat and stealth and netrunning are hard, and then V increases in experience, buys more and more cyberware, and everything become easier. There's a very good sense of progression in there.

But level scaling ruins it. Now every enemy is as competent as V regardless if it makes sense for them to be (gonks like Valentinos can stand their own against a level 50 super augmented V). It completely removes the sense of progression, it makes V's abilities feel weaker and the enemies become bullet sponges. As a result the game feel samey and it flattens the difficulty curve. It's a dirty way of bringing balacing to the game, regardless if the game actually needs it.

It's an horrible decision and I hope it will be made optional in the near future.
Yeah I agree. It would be okay if they were a little bit harder, but all the gangs are incredibly strong. I've always played on very hard, i enjoy the challange but it made a few trophies I'd ignored like the superhero landing kill impossible (even against some vandal tiger claws) and same with the sniper 2 head shots with one bullet. I had to change it to easy just to obtain them. Wtf is that? I'm level 51 sc50 90% edgerunner 80%yolo and 56%running on fumes(probably should sleep and shower more often, I'm starting to stink.. but let's get back to V..🤣)
We're all adjusting to a new system but this was a wild and risky call for a company to make.
 
Weeks ago, sure. Different story now, though, since people learned how bad the level scaling is.
Stop rationalising with old stats.

Then by all means, provide stats that support your claims. Because Steam says you're wrong.

Reviews for PL - which are obviously on 2.0/01 and thus level scaling applies:

Oct 13 - 42 positives review to 0 negative reviews (or the bar is so small on the negative side I'm having trouble mousing over it)
Oct 12 - 121 positives review to 21 negative reviews
Oct 11 - 151 positive reviews to 9 negative reviews
Oct 10 - 168 positive reviews to 16 negative reviews
Oct 9 - 169 positive reviews to 9 negative reviews
Oct 8 - 258 positive reviews to 40 negative reviews

I'm sure you've noticed the pattern here and this isn't weeks ago. It holds true all the way to release and it holds true for the base game as well. Obviously, 2.0 and PL are being incredibly well received. These are hard numbers. Not "look around on the internet".

Even player critics on Metacritic, which is far more negative (as it always is to be fair) indicates a majority of positive reviews. The negative reviews also seem to be almost exclusively due to technical issues, not level scaling ruining the game.

So where are your numbers? Please provide them and back up your claim.

It's also perfectly normal for player count to lower progressively in any single player game too. Baldur's Gate 3, hailed as an absolutely great RPG (rightfully so), has seen a steady decline in player count since release. Is it because it's also just shallow people who enjoy it and they all moved on after two weeks to go play Doom or CoD?

You're purposefully going into threads about hating level scaling and, surprise, seeing other people who share your opinion. The truth is you've fallen into an echo chamber and failed to recognize it as such.

If you look at things objectively it's clear as day that level scaling isn't ruining most people's enjoyment of the game. You don't like it and that's fine. It sucks that the game got changed on you and that you dislike those changes but it's no reason to lash out at people who don't share your opinion.

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Agreed, but...does it matter, any more?
As all options for gameplay bar 'charge in and shoot everyone' have been removed due them killing hacking entirely, what does it matter?
Look I'm sure this has been said in the last 11 pages of replies, but yikes this is a gonked take.

This was a comment by someone who either restarted an old character who expected their build to be the same, or started a new character and didn't take time to learn the new game.

Hopefully the last few weeks have shone some light on netrunning for you.

For everyone complaining that stealth running is dead, there are others who complain that there is no reason to shoot anyone because hacking is too OP or stealth is so strong.

Sonic shock, Mem Wipe, Contagion? That's just the basics -- can take out an entire camp without ever getting spotted or traced.

The new Cool paths also get you into and out of entire missions without ever alerting a guard; I did The Heist and the GIM without getting spotted.

In neither of them did I ever need my weapon.

So it's either impatience, a build issue, or a skill issue... they changed things, but none are nerfed into oblivion.

If anything every track is so OP relative to the level scaling that you never need to mix things up because every strategy is equally viable in almost every case. It is exceedingly rare for the game to challenge you to overcome unique or overpowered enemies. And I think this is the root cause of the scaling complaints.

The dialogue/environmental scaling issues are a whole other bag of worms.
 
I felt the progression of getting stronger just like you mention and I'm also playing on "very hard." I went from feeling like a chump, with poor accuracy and damage, to mowing down enemies, especially with sandevistan and high rate of fire SMGs (and the Alabai auto-shotgun), before they can even shoot at me. Even before I switched to sandevistan I could sense my character getting stronger as a unlocked more perks and acquired better weapons/cyberware.

You're doing something wrong or are playing on too high a difficulty for your skill if you don't feel the progression of power.

Level scaling is fine.
 
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I tried this for a while now, and yes, level scaling ruins the immersion and challenges.

I would like to enjoy the game *and* the PL content.

So I'm asking: is there any mod (ready, in the works) which brings back the non-scaling as it was before, for 2.x?

If need be, I'd even pay for it.
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Reviews for PL - which are obviously on 2.0/01 and thus level scaling applies:
Reviews for PL are reviews for PL, not for level scaling.
You can like the PL content and still think level scaling sucks.
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The attribute checks are not a major concern for scaling critics. Putting points on strength is not a big deal now because we have so much lvl. The majority of the critics about the scaling are complaining that your character is weak because enemies level up with you, and it's not like an RPG anymore.
Straw man?
The enemies are weaker than before (yes, also in hard mode); and, which is worse, they are *all* equally weak.
Before level scaling, you had to watch which gang you encountered, how many of them were around, all that - a feeling of danger, of watching your step. Now, you can just waltz in *anywhere* without care who that specific gang is, apply your preferred fighting pattern regardless.

That sucks.
 
there is an issue with this game and tw3 (i dont remember tw2 and i didnt play tw1).
do you remember pre 2.0 item stats? lvl 1 jacket had 0.00001 armor, and the same jacket at lvl 50 had 300 armor. why? why dont you make tier 1 with 100 and tier 5++ (max) with 110 armor? is it nesessary to make this 100000000 times multiplication? and then add billions of armor to the mobs, and then laugh at onepunched oda if player met him at lvl 50, and then add level scaling to finally ruin some mechanics. with this level scaling players have no progress. we just have to catch up every random mob's progression. i dont know.
i guess there is some person in cdpr who dictates "we must add 1000000% to every item's stats with its every lvl up". love you guys, but that's bad. and sorry for my english, i hope you can understand my idea.
 

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It's also important to add that level scaling also ruins stealth. You can't one shot enemies in the head with a silenced pistols, you need 2-3 shots and the other enemies get alerted.
It's like they developed this update with only combat as a focus, but the strenghts of this game was to be able to choose how you wanted to complete a mission.
Yeah but they gave us tools to combat even this problem. For example perk gag order allows you to hit the enemy in stealth a few more times than just once and he's alerted. This works very well with throwing knives which are the very best way to stealth now period along with takedowns.
 
This was my first rpg in a long time. For the last 10 years plus I have exclusively play 4x strategy games. Mainly the Civilization franchise.
I was expecting to find the combat hard. Quite the contrary. I found the hardest level not hard at all. No matter the spec I went with.
732 hours played and the ease of combat would be the biggest drawback.
At least level scaling meant I had to put a thought or two in, I couldn't imagine the game without it.
Saw too many streams where people had it on very hard, 20 attribute and perk points not spent and walking over everything.
My one wish for Orion is for very hard to be more of a challenge.
 
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At least level scaling meant I had to put a thought or two in, I couldn't imagine the game without it.

Why would you think that npc scaling made the game harder? It didnt, quite the contrary.

NPC scaling made the weak enemies a bit stronger (but they are still pretty weak) and it made the strong enemies weaker (they are now also pretty weak).
I made two full playthroughs before 2.00 (so before NPC scaling was added) and two after, and with NPC scaling the game is noticable easier.
 
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