PC mouse and keyboard controls

[arkhenon]

I think you understood me wrongly. From a design perspective, I agree with you (should be apparent from my previous posts on your custom-made UI you know...). But the extra ability to obtain items with a hotkey is a nice to have option. Now, it's true that the button prompts are not very good to have there. My guess would be that they are there if a person wants to play the game via a gamepad on PC. To get rid of those prompts when a person is not using a gamepad, two different versions of the UI should be included and switched between whenever a controller is used. So I'm thinking that they used a hybrid version to easily cater for everyone, while decreasing the specified KB/M usage quality slightly.

It's not a huge deal for me, as it's nothing too obstructive to "me". But like I said, if someone (preferably you, because I like your design) created a mod to increase the specific KB/M usage quality, I'd be happy.

Blizzard -> Diablo 3

Now, when it comes to this - as I've seen you give this example several times now - it needs to be stated that they ported the game to the console AFTER they released it first for only PC. So, what you are saying is, it is okay if CDPR provided a PC-centric UI after several months via a patch? I agree that it's a little lazy, but this example is not exactly applicable, sorry.

 

[moonknightgog]

Honestly speaking, how much it would cost to make a proper UI for m/k?

 

[Scholdarr.452]

I think you understood me wrongly. From a design perspective, I agree with you (should be apparent from my previous posts on your custom-made UI you know...). But the extra ability to obtain items with a hotkey is a nice to have option. Now, it's true that the button prompts are not very good to have there. My guess would be that they are there if a person wants to play the game via a gamepad on PC. To get rid of those prompts when a person is not using a gamepad, two different versions of the UI should be included and switched between whenever a controller is used. So I'm thinking that they used a hybrid version to easily cater for everyone, while decreasing the specified KB/M usage quality slightly.

Well, it obviously WAS a hybrid version and the button prompts changed every time once either a gamepad or M/K was detected.

And I don't think button prompts should be missing. They should just be part of the overall aesthtics and not a foreign body that works outside of the menu aestetics. That's pretty impossible on console but it's pretty standard on PC.

Example: dynamic menu for loot

Console: button prompts for "take", "take all" and "close" with the respective symbols of the controller

PC: specific buttons integrated into the aestetics of the menu containing the text "take" and "take all". You can click on the buttons (obligatory) and use certain standard hotkeys that aren't shown but specified in the keyboard settings (nice to have but pretty much recommended and easy to do since the console version already works like that). For closing the menu there should be just a traditional "X" button in the upper right corner.


The PC button prompts solution for the loot menu I've shown in the screens from AngryJoe's gameplay vid look like they were done by a complete amateur, completely neglecting basic PC UI design principles. I just don't understand how something like that can still exist in a version of the game just 4 weeks before release. I honestly don't know what to say about that. It's like CDPR didn't care at all about PC UI and controls in the past three years and the issue is only "dealt with" in the last four weeks before release....

Now, when it comes to this - as I've seen you give this example several times now - it needs to be stated that they ported the game to the console AFTER they released it first for only PC. So, what you are saying is, it is okay if CDPR provided a PC-centric UI after several months via a patch? I agree that it's a little lazy, but this example is not exactly applicable, sorry.

Well, Blizzard didn't know that they'd make a console version at the time they developed the PC version. But I'm pretty sure that they would have done different UIs in any way, since you can play Diablo on controllers with its classical PC UI. It's just impossible.

And of course it's not ok to provide a PC-centric UI several months after release if you do a multiplat-release at the same time. To put it shorty: if you want to do a multiplat release at the same time you should be sure that you have the money and manpower to do so. If you don't have that you shouldn't make a multiplat release at the same time...

---------- Updated at 07:24 PM ----------

Honestly speaking, how much it would cost to make a proper UI for m/k?

Not more than the salary of one to three UI designers...

 

[Geralt_of_bsas]

I honestly don't know what you mean. My mock-up work exactly like you describe it here. It's a mouse-over comparsion, so you don't have to equip anything for comparison. Just move the mouse over items in your inventory grid and the mouse-over tooltip open automatically. If it's an equippable item the currently equipped item is also automatically shown right besides it for comparison.

And because it's just a mouse-over the tooltip doesn't cover other stuff. It disappears once your mouse pointer leaves the item and the inventory grid on the left.

I don't know what you mean with the names. They are shown in the mouse-over tooltip once you move your mouse pointer above the respective item. That's how a standard PC inventory works. You usually use the mouse with full freedom of movement and fast selection, no need for an awkward and slow solution that works like controller where you have to toggle through every single item...

Okay yeah thats how I understood it. So what happens if you have two armors in your inventory that you want to compare, you put the mouse over one of them, tool tip appears, and how do you see the other armor's stats at the same time without needing it to be equipped?, that was my doubt.

Basically, how do you make two tool tips appearing at the same time no matter what type of items they belong to, or if those are equipped or not.. Its something that in most RPG inventories i can remember you cant do at all.

A simpel solution would be that you click on one armor in your inventory, that shows you the tool tip permanently, and then you can move the bars and move the mouse over the other armor you are considering, thus creating a comparison of the "permanent tool tip" you "locked" in, with the common real time tool tip you are currently browsing.
Or like I said, just simply let the info that was in CDPR's version there.

Usually I have to equip one armor, and then browse another one with the mouse so the game shows the me stats of the one I have vs the one I might change it with, with tool tips or not. I hope my point more clear now.

What I meant with the names was that they could be always visible, all at the same time, for all equipped items, not that you have to "select" them or highlight them like with a controller. So what I mean is, you open the inventory, and without doing or moving anything at all you can see the names of the things you have equipped next to their icons, or below them.

Its just a bunch of small bs anyway dont worry about it

 

[moonknightgog]

Okay yeah thats how I understood it. So what happens if you have two armors in your inventory that you want to compare, you put the mouse over one of them, tool tip appears, and how do you see the other armor's stats at the same time without needing it to be equipped?, that was my doubt.

Uhm...
CTRL+Left mouse click on one armor to select it. Then you go with the mouse arrow on the other armor.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Okay yeah thats how I understood it. So what happens if you have two armors in your inventory that you want to compare, you put the mouse over one of them, tool tip appears, and how do you see the other armor's stats at the same time without needing it to be equipped?, that was my doubt.

Basically, how do you make two tool tips appearing at the same time no matter what type of items they belong to, or if those are equipped or not.. Its something that in most RPG inventories i can remember you cant do at all.

A simpel solution would be that you click on one armor in your inventory, that shows you the tool tip permanently, and then you can move the bars and move the mouse over the other armor you are considering, thus creating a comparison of the "permanent tool tip" you "locked" in, with the common real time tool tip you are currently browsing.
Or like I said, just simply let the info that was in CDPR's version there.

Usually I have to equip one armor, and then browse another one with the mouse so the game shows the me stats of the one I have vs the one I might change it with, with tool tips or not. I hope my point more clear now.

What I meant with the names was that they could be always visible, all at the same time, for all equipped items, not that you have to "select" them or highlight them like with a controller. So what I mean is, you open the inventory, and without doing or moving anything at all you can see the names of the things you have equipped next to their icons, or below them.

Its just a bunch of small bs anyway dont worry about it

Well, the permanent tool-tip takes away a lot of space that can be used otherwise.

I think there are better options to compare two items without being forced to equip one. Perhaps by including a drop-down menu when right-clicking onto an item (Divinity Original Sin offered that, for example).

@moonknightgog That solution is even better.

 

[Geralt_of_bsas]

ah so what I suggested is already doable? lol

well you learn something new everyday...

 

[Viperswhip]

I have always relied on Mods to fix the PC UI for Bethesda games, I didn't mind the controls for the Witcher 1 or 2 though. I have not had to install any mods for either of those in relation to the UI.

In my mind they should have a PC UI team and a Console UI team. It can't be that hard. I think the best game I played with obvious dual development was Testament of Sherlock Holmes. You could pick form 4 or 5 control schemes. You could have the epileptic way the Witcher works (no pointer), or you could have the pointer, or use a controller and so on. I really liked that choice.

 

[AutumnalWanderer]

Blizzard -> Diablo 3

They actually made a completely seperate UI for the console ports. Both UIs (console and PC) cater almost perfectly to the specific strengths and demands of the respective input methods.

I never played the Diablo franchise, thanks for the heads up

 

[Scholdarr.452]

I never played the Diablo franchise, thanks for the heads up

Oh, and Dragon Age Originsl. UI for PC and console was different there as well...

Console:

View attachment 13167

View attachment 13168


PC:

View attachment 13165

View attachment 13166

Then Bioware (better: EA) became lazy and greedy and they thought that making/designing a game for controllers and consoles alone, adjusting it a little bit for PC later down the line, would be enough. Well, the results were the perfect PC games DA2 and DAI...

 

[AutumnalWanderer]

The DAI was a complete mess on PC both with M+KB and with controller, if you ask me.

 

[dragonbird]

Back to TW3 please...

 

[URJoking]

Simple answer: the user interface was originally designed for controllers, and it is being adapted to use with KB+M. Which sucks..

This is a brand new game being released for PC from the outset so how can it be originally designed for controller?! If you mean that W1 &/or W2 were originally designed for controllers, I still don't see how that's relevant, unless you're suggesting that CD PR are such cheapskates as to not design the UI for PC but somehow port it across to PC. Even if this were the extremely unlikely case, there are good and bad ports and my money's on CD PR doing a great job of it. Also, I don't remember any problems playing either W1 or W2 on PC. So long as they incorporate full key remapping then all should be fine.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

This is a brand new game being released for PC from the outset so how can it be originally designed for controller?!

Why should it not be possible? You can use a controller on PC as well so there is no proof that the game was designed for M/K from the very beginning. The actual systems in place though as shown in the videos so far, they suggest that this was actually not the case...

I still don't see how that's relevant, unless you're suggesting that CD PR are such cheapskates as to not design the UI for PC but somehow port it across to PC.

But that's the case here. At some point during development CDPR said themselves that there won't be a seperate UI for M/K controls.

Even if this were the extremely unlikely case, there are good and bad ports and my money's on CD PR doing a great job of it. Also, I don't remember any problems playing either W1 or W2 on PC. So long as they incorporate full key remapping then all should be fine.

W1 was of course made for PC and M/K controls. But the game also had a different approach to combat, perspective and overall gameplay. The consolization (as in: systems desinged for controllers) began with W2. And there were some problems with M/K controls at W2's release. Some of them were patched out, but some of them prevail to the current day (like missing raw mouse input or an optimized UI).

And full key remapping only addresses combat and in game controls and not the menu structure and the whole UI+HUD which is clearly desinged for controllers. Maybe that's enough for you in the current state but it's definitely not made for optimized and perfect M/K controlling and therefore imho not acceptable (or disappointing at least). It's obviously not designed for M/K neither (at least not the version we've seen so far with the ugly button prompts). It's of course somehow "functioning". But in a game like TW3 I'd suspect that controls and usability with M/K were at least on par with those with controllers. Given the mouse's specific strengths in managing UIs and menus the experience on PC should actually even be BETTER (read: faster, more comfortable and with more information available) than on console with controllers...

 

[IsengrimR]

It's worrying, but at least we've got a quote saying that it will be perfectly playable.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if a representative from FROM Software went out and said that Dark Souls 1 is perfectly playable on mouse and keyboard however, so that stands for little.

Considering the game, the genre and what we know so far, I'd say it's not just required... it's a must to have rebindable keys.

Preferably rebindable keys with modifiers. Aka, Crtl+Q - does X.
Also, hopefully there will be not a sign, of what I like to call, a clusterfuck key ( aka key that is responsible for more than one function ). I think everyone wants to avoid... ughh... this.

Do I find it disturbing that K&M controls are being done last minute? Yes.

Surprising? Hardly. Considering what we saw with Witcher 2, and the fact that W3 wants to appeal to the console crowd very hard, it's not surprising. It's expected and very typical.

That said, if PC controls suck, it will be a fun show to watch.

 

[Maverick89]

Witcher 3 is made primary for consoles like X-box, look at the agreement between CDPR and Microsoft.

 

[dragonbird]

Witcher 3 is made primary for consoles like X-box, look at the agreement between CDPR and Microsoft.

Perhaps you'd like to share that agreement, if you have a copy? Failing which, please avoid hyperbolic statements that have no basis in reality.

 

[thislsmadness]

Perhaps you'd like to share that agreement, if you have a copy? Failing which, please avoid hyperbolic statements that have no basis in reality.

Come on Dragon, its super obvious. Xbox is getting exclusive graphical features that MS has helped develop, they are bundling the game with every purchase of a new Xbox, CDPR was invited on stage during MS' GDC conference, and they've been providing CDPR with hardware as they tour the world letting press people play the game. 1+2+3=4.

 

[Phalzyr]

come on dragon, its super obvious. Xbox is getting exclusive graphical features that ms has helped develop, they are bundling the game with every purchase of a new xbox, cdpr was invited on stage during ms' gdc conference, and they've been providing cdpr with hardware as they tour the world letting press people play the game. 1+2+3=4.

lol

 

[dragonbird]

Maybe I should just merge this with the posts where people are worried about not seeing any console video yet.


I totally get why people are concerned. But making up conspiracy theories doesn't help.
Oh, and madness? Your maths sucks.