The Bittersweet Ending is actually a Bad Ending ... and it's All Geralt's Fault. [SPOILERS]

[Gerald01]

That's...assuming destiny is the driving force behind Ciri and immutable.

That's tautological.

Ciri could have defeated the White Frost and not her offspring not because it's her destiny but because she punched it until it was dead.

No it does not assume that. It simply assumes they retconned the storyline with Ciri in place of the theoretical descendant(s) from the books.

Doesn't mean destiny is immutable or the driving force behind Ciri (which would not be tautological anyway).

If she just "punched it" (oh, not a SW quote after all? Mine is) ergo just jumped at the chance, it would have serious consequences for the game finale.
It'd be much worse than a retcon. It'd mean Ciri just straight up impromptu decided hey maybe I can do that too why not right now of all times? It's not like there's a huge battle for ME going on below, let's try it just now for reasons.

 

[CTPhipps]

You could be right but with all the other call backs I think Ciri's offspring being the Chosen Ones and Fake Ciri are both canon until proven otherwise even if mostly ignored by the games.

Just sayin.

 

[UndiscoveredAdv]

The games treat the books as part of their cannon for the most part, at least concerning Ciri and Yennefer from what I can gather. They even mention the tiniest details, which I didn't expect

 

[stachomacho]

Ignoring the fact that I hate everything about this white frost thingy... that's not really much of a choice though. Either Shepard, sorry, I mean Ciri jumps into the beam or everyone dies. Also this is something that always happens so it doesn't really have anything to do with the Empress ending.

Yes I agree with you on that, it feels like one does not have the choice at all. Yet a choice still have to be made - I accept who I am (Elders Blood for her instance) and I'm doing what I am ment to do, or Im trying to avoid it, put the resposibility on someone else etc. Remember that it's not exactly like Shepard's story - there reapers were the "real time threat", here this all thing called "White Frost" is some mysterious force that turns the worlds into empty snow desert, but no one knows if it's going to happen in one or two, 100 or 1000 years...

And btw. also I don't like how this whole "White Frost" is hadled in the game at all!

I had some own theory about it before I have completed the game which was something like this - the whole prophecy about White Frost was actually about the invasion of the elves from the other world and WF is just a metaphor.

 

[CTPhipps]

1) Therefore it has a value and meaning either way, since it's hers. Cannot place an arbitrary quality on one over the other because you dislike it.
That's the beauty of CDPR's (weird) choice for Ciri's possible endings. I will come back on this some time or the other.

Yeah, her choice in the end has to be respected which is the funny thing about them.

2)The difference is simply some people (those with alleged higher sources for their morality) at least can claim, nay, believe (in the biblical sense) they have some sort of foundation for theirs.
Claiming to have a baseless moral code and then judging others by it can only lead you to everybody else shrugging it off regardless. Even from your own POV you have to agree your own moral code is absolutely worthless for everybody including you yourself.
Choices are different than morality. One can be perfectly aware (nay, convinced) of the existence of some absolute mandatory moral code, yet choose to disobey it.

I absolutely believe in a moral code of which needs to be obeyed without question and that anyone who stands against it needs to be opposed. It's, however, one I've created myself. If everyone believed in slavery and I opposed them, I would still believe in my own code which says that's evil. If God believed in slavery, I'd believe that was evil. It's uncompromising and absolute because my beliefs are who I am.

But I'm not going to try and persuade you to follow my view. The nature of my beliefs are that you should be encouraged to follow your own beliefs.

 

[Gerald01]

I absolutely believe in a moral code of which needs to be obeyed without question and that anyone who stands against it needs to be opposed. It's, however, one I've created myself. If everyone believed in slavery and I opposed them, I would still believe in my own code which says that's evil. If God believed in slavery, I'd believe that was evil. It's uncompromising and absolute because my beliefs are who I am.

But I'm not going to try and persuade you to follow my view. The nature of my beliefs are that you should be encouraged to follow your own beliefs.

That's not even moral relativism, it's moral anarchy and completely useless.

---------- Updated at 05:53 PM ----------

Yes I agree with you on that, it feels like one does not have the choice at all. Yet a choice still have to be made - I accept who I am (Elders Blood for her instance) and I'm doing what I am ment to do, or Im trying to avoid it, put the resposibility on someone else etc. Remember that it's not exactly like Shepard's story - there reapers were the "real time threat", here this all thing called "White Frost" is some mysterious force that turns the worlds into empty snow desert, but no one knows if it's going to happen in one or two, 100 or 1000 years...

And btw. also I don't like how this whole "White Frost" is hadled in the game at all!

I had some own theory about it before I have completed the game which was something like this - the whole prophecy about White Frost was actually about the invasion of the elves from the other world and WF is just a metaphor.

That's part of the charm regarding this ending. Apart from the problems (no buildup, rushed, etc.) I think they nailed it perfectly and captured the essence of the series, as I explained in another thread which sadly got locked.


As far as retcon is concerned, if there was none, the WF would be different, and the ending just outright idiotic.

 

[CTPhipps]

That's not even moral relativism, it's moral anarchy and completely useless.

I believe that its the definition of conviction. It's an existentialist viewpoint, however.

Terry Pratchett had his own similar beliefs.

“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”

Good and evil is something each of us chooses to believe despite its subjective nature. However, that doesn't make it any less important to believe in.

But this is going in circles and Im glad you have a strong foundation for your beliefs. I like to think I do too.

Have a good one!

 

[stachomacho]

@Zbotz
Ah, and as for the Empress ending, I know that no matter of the ending, Ciri ends up in the "white beam" defeating WF, yet it doesn't means that there can't be a connection between these two. I mean - if she accepts to be the Elders Blood and to defeat the WF, why she can't accept the thing that she is child of the emperor, which means smth like she was born to be the empress.

It all about the theory made in the OP - that the Empress ending is actually an bad ending. I just don't agree with it. And I'm aware of that generally this is coming from my own personal believes. Cause I believe that everyone is born for a reason. And I believe one of the reasons Ciri was born, was not only to defeat WF but also to become the empress of Nilfgaard and start the golden age for Nilfgaard and it's habitants - not only the Nilfgaardians by birth but also the ones from the conquered regions, maybe even for non-humas. Because if it's not for Ciri then I think no one else is capable of doing it.

 

[CTPhipps]

@Zbotz
Ah, and as for the Empress ending, I know that no matter of the ending, Ciri ends up in the "white beam" defeating WF, yet it doesn't means that there can't be a connection between these two. I mean - if she accepts to be the Elders Blood and to defeat the WF, why she can't accept the thing that she is child of the emperor, which means smth like she was born to be the empress.

It all about the theory made in the OP - that the Empress ending is actually an bad ending. I just don't agree with it. And I'm aware of that generally this is coming from my own personal believes. Cause I believe that everyone is born for a reason. And I believe one of the reasons Ciri was born, was not only to defeat WF but also to become the empress of Nilfgaard and start the golden age for Nilfgaard and it's habitants - not only the Nilfgaardians by birth but also the ones from the conquered regions, maybe even for non-humas. Because if it's not for Ciri then I think no one else is capable of doing it.

Honestly, I think that may be underestimating Nilfgaard. In the Nilfgaard Wins ending, which is required for Ciri to become Empress, the lion's share of making things better is already done because Temeria has already won concessions from Nilfgaard which have established a precedent for the people of Nilfgaard's provinces to have rights and equality to the people of the main continent. Likewise, they also have racial equality for elves and dwarves in Nilfgaard provinces.

It's also very subjective based on our endings.

In my ending, Geralt very deliberately chose Dijkstra both because of his belief they should fight on and because he wanted to make sure Emhyr was weakened in hopes his enemies would take him out.

In short, Ciri's destiny was to make sure her father was murdered due to a Witcher hating him THAT much for endangering her.

Which changes, of course, from game to game and what you see as Geralt's motivation.

 

[Gerald01]

@willow
I'm not sure Temeria protectorate/vassalage sets any precedent, since for instance Touissant has a similar juridical status inside the Empire already...

 

[CTPhipps]

@willow
I'm not sure Temeria protectorate/vassalage sets any precedent, since for instance Touissant has a similar juridical status inside the Empire already...

Eh, it does for the North, at least but you're right.

The Nilfgaard's uncompromising status with the North is kind of weird really in light of that.

 

[stachomacho]

Which changes, of course, from game to game and what you see as Geralt's motivation.

Exactly. That's why I've never claimed that the "Empress ending" is some sorf of "one true ending". I just disagree with the statment that this is a bad ending.

This is also the reason why I think CDPR did pretty damn good job with the endings for the trilogy. Every single one of them is a good summarization for the way how you were role playing as Geralt of Rivia.

 

[Goodmongo]

As I explained to my students in college, "Moral Relativism doesn't mean you can't make moral judgements. It just means you understand their perspective when you do."

I prefer what Sir Charles James Napier once said:

"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."

As for the game Geralt needs to follow a moral code of conduct. Not only is it a witchers creed but the Lady of the Lake reinforced it. Unlike other games that encourage you to try good and evil sides these games do not. KOTOR specifically had endings in place for different moral stances. I do not see the endings in TW3 based on that.

 

[CTPhipps]

Amusingly, I used that example too @Goodmongo.

 

[lwp]

I completed the 'Empress Ending' last night. Got to say it was far more developed then the Witcher ending, more so then I was expecting. I was assuming I was going to meet with Ciri, kill the forktail and then see her off with Voohris. There was so much more to it, from Dandelion, Zoltan (and Triss for me), to the winter White Orchard, the returning soldier with his horse and even seeing Mislav again. By contrast the Witcher ending seemed much shorter, had you basically just meditating, getting a sword then showing up with Ciri. My first playthrough I was so depressed thinking she died I basically just went through the motions on that ending. While I still like the outcome of the Witcher ending much more than the Empress one, the latter was of much higher quality in terms of design IMO, and thematically more powerful.

 

[Gerald01]

I completed the 'Empress Ending' last night. Got to say it was far more developed then the Witcher ending, more so then I was expecting. I was assuming I was going to meet with Ciri, kill the forktail and then see her off with Voohris. There was so much more to it, from Dandelion, Zoltan (and Triss for me), to the winter White Orchard, the returning soldier with his horse and even seeing Mislav again. By contrast the Witcher ending seemed much shorter, had you basically just meditating, getting a sword then showing up with Ciri. My first playthrough I was so depressed thinking she died I basically just went through the motions on that ending. While I still like the outcome of the Witcher ending much more than the Empress one, the latter was of much higher quality in terms of design IMO, and thematically more powerful.

Oh! I didn't know the White Orchard in winter scenario was unique for the Empress ending. I thought both the Witcher one and the aforementioned shared it with minor differences, with the Ciri MIA being completely different.

 

[CTPhipps]

I completed the 'Empress Ending' last night. Got to say it was far more developed then the Witcher ending, more so then I was expecting. I was assuming I was going to meet with Ciri, kill the forktail and then see her off with Voohris. There was so much more to it, from Dandelion, Zoltan (and Triss for me), to the winter White Orchard, the returning soldier with his horse and even seeing Mislav again. By contrast the Witcher ending seemed much shorter, had you basically just meditating, getting a sword then showing up with Ciri. My first playthrough I was so depressed thinking she died I basically just went through the motions on that ending. While I still like the outcome of the Witcher ending much more than the Empress one, the latter was of much higher quality in terms of design IMO, and thematically more powerful.

Yeah, I wanted a lot more Witcher ending stuff.

I would have liked a chance to discuss the fact Emhyr was dead with her.

"How do you feel?"

"He had it coming/It's a Shame/I'm Sorry."

And so on.

The problem with the Witcher characters is they're SO DEVELOPED you could play with them forever.

 

[UndiscoveredAdv]

100% Agree with you there, the Empress epilogue is by far the best, but I prefer the Witcher ending as a conclusion for Ciri as a character.

 

[CTPhipps]

100% Agree with you there, the Empress epilogue is by far the best, but I prefer the Witcher ending as a conclusion for Ciri as a character.

I feel the same.

 

[Goodmongo]

While it is true that there was much more in the empress ending it was also a sad one. Not as sad as Geralt saying Ciri is dead but sad in the fact that Ciri is being forced to do something she doesn't want to do. The only ending of pure joy and happiness is the witcher ending.