[Lighting Mod] STLM 2.2

[linaswas_001]

You guys can do a pretty much complete comparison with the rest of the versions now:

We need to go deeper , if someone has copy of first STLM and would be kind to show it to us, that would be great. We can see how much of a progress has been done for over a year now, would really like to see it.

 

[WalteriusMaximus]

As Leopard, we have a good amount of respect for the devs like you (who do their work properly).

As well as we have that, we also dont have that level of respect for the ones who don't do their work properly. And if you read all the things listed since the game come out by people who actually understand what they are talking about, you'll crearly see there are problems, many indeed, which were caused by this non-efficient people.

I know this might sound weird to you since you probably are more related to the programming aspect of the company and not the high level management (financial, economic, etc), and these type of inefficient people are probably found (at least more) in that management level and not in your area, but the problem is that those decisions from the administration affect everything else basically, including your area's work in every aspect you could imagine.

We know things are done for this game regarding those things which could be improved, it's a shame really, but we also -at least- hope these won't repeat (as much as a minimum requirement) in your next games.

If your goal as a company is perfection (related to the product offered), in which you are in a better position than almost any other gaming company, instead of demanding respect you should try reading and incorporing this relevant criticism which came from passionate consumers.

Since this is the STLM lighting mod thread, I will reply in context to it...

We can clearly see from Essenthy's incredible work (he's only ONE guy!) that the Witcher 3 is quite capable of delivering amazing lighting and as a result, the appropriate atmosphere, to the game.
And at some point during development, the very talented artists working on this game absolutely nailed the lighting. We all saw the footage and images.
And then, all of a sudden we ended up with a game looking significantly inferior (and BTW, Essenthy's lighting mod does not impact performance at all, so we can't even blame it on "optimization"). So what happened?
I very much doubt the lighting artists working on the game suddenly lost their edge, messing everything up. This is highly unlikely and it would therefore be very unfair to be blaming things on any kind of incompetency. It is simply not logical!

Instead, what I think most likely happened is that the guy at the top said to them "change it, it is too edgy, make it look more mainstream", which of course, from the perspective of a host of gamers playing the game, was a huge misstep.
But the boss is the boss and if he wants it a certain way, guess what....he's going to get it!

Witcher 3, in my opinion, suffers from a lot of inappropriate meddling in lighting, UI, and gameplay mechanics. All of which were at some point during the development of the game, spot on! One such example is Geralt's meditation which has been reduced to a mindless, blacked out screen with potions filling up all by themselves. Not what we wanted.
This is the work of someone at the top losing sight of the pure, uncompromising vision for the game and getting blinded by the "industry standard".
Because of their loyalty to CDPR, we would probably never hear anyone of the developers admit to it, but to me, it seems very clear how things went down....

So let's stop pointing fingers at artists, assuming they don't know what they are doing. It is the executives at CDPR that should be pointed at.

 

[amfibiya89]

Comparison time

E3 2014 Demo

STLM 2.3

And teribleee horriblee VANILLAAAAA (Sorry for that dear CDProject but this is what the realty is at least for me)

As we can see there is very subtle difference between E3 and STLM 2.3. I really hope same will happen with outside of Novigrad (entrance of Novigrad) and @essenthy will find more useful options and will bring us that beauty with all glory.


And this is bonus for heart breaking. Lets break our hearts. YYAAAAAYYYYYY

 

[ayyudee]

Since this is the STLM lighting mod thread, I will reply in context to it...

We can clearly see from Essenthy's incredible work (he's only ONE guy!) that the Witcher 3 is quite capable of delivering amazing lighting and as a result, the appropriate atmosphere, to the game.
And at some point during development, the very talented artists working on this game absolutely nailed the lighting. We all saw the footage and images.
And then, all of a sudden we ended up with a game looking significantly inferior (and BTW, Essenthy's lighting mod does not impact performance at all, so we can't even blame it on "optimization"). So what happened?
I very much doubt the lighting artists working on the game suddenly lost their edge, messing everything up. This is highly unlikely and it would therefore be very unfair to be blaming things on any kind of incompetency. It is simply not logical!

Instead, what I think most likely happened is that the guy at the top said to them "change it, it is too edgy, make it look more mainstream", which of course, from the perspective of a host of gamers playing the game, was a huge misstep.
But the boss is the boss and if he wants it a certain way, guess what....he's going to get it!

Witcher 3, in my opinion, suffers from a lot of inappropriate meddling in lighting, UI, and gameplay mechanics. All of which were at some point during the development of the game, spot on! One such example is Geralt's meditation which has been reduced to a mindless, blacked out screen with potions filling up all by themselves. Not what we wanted.
This is the work of someone at the top losing sight of the pure, uncompromising vision for the game and getting blinded by the "industry standard".
Because of their loyalty to CDPR, we would probably never hear anyone of the developers admit to it, but to me, it seems very clear how things went down....

So let's stop pointing fingers at artists, assuming they don't know what they are doing. It is the executives at CDPR that should be pointed at.

Totally agree, mainstream decisions suck, and yet we are talking of one of the least mainstream's devs out there (look what was done with RDR2).

We should let them know this before it's to late for their next game.

 

[Mezziaz]

BTW, Essenthy's lighting mod does not impact performance at all, so we can't even blame it on "optimization"

It is true that was Essenthy has achieved does to affect performance.

However the method he uses is not the same way that CDPR did it in earlier builds as the lighting system was entirely different. The game was using dynamic image-based lighting (an algorithm for global illumination) and this probably was quite demanding (and would had been revolutionary for a game of this size if they had stuck with it).

I believe you are spot on about everything else you said though.

 

[WalteriusMaximus]

It is true that was Essenthy has achieved does to affect performance.

However the method he uses is not the same way that CDPR did it in earlier builds as the lighting system was entirely different. The game was using dynamic image-based lighting (an algorithm for global illumination) and this probably was quite demanding (and would had been revolutionary for a game of this size if they had stuck with it).

I believe you are spot on about everything else you said though.

Yep, I am aware that they used a different lighting model before, but even after they adopted the new lighting model, the lighting did look much better (E3 2014). And CDPR is still using some of these images as promotional "screenshots" on their site! (A bit cheeky IMO, because it is a mis-representation of the final product).
But at the end of the day, we just have to make peace with this. It just saddens me that Mr Executive at CDPR didn't have the much sought-after vision for the game's visuals that everyone else seem to have...

 

[amfibiya89]

It is true that was Essenthy has achieved does to affect performance.

However the method he uses is not the same way that CDPR did it in earlier builds as the lighting system was entirely different. The game was using dynamic image-based lighting (an algorithm for global illumination) and this probably was quite demanding (and would had been revolutionary for a game of this size if they had stuck with it).

I believe you are spot on about everything else you said though.

Different lighting system which was too demanding for this game was not in 2014 build. It was in 2013 build and VGX build too. And Adam Badowski said that they changed that after 2013. And that was not IBL system. That was system which used many dynamic light.

"Maybe it was our bad decision to change the rendering system," he mulls, "because the rendering system after VGX was changed." There were two possible rendering systems but one won out because it looked nicer across the whole world, in daytime and at night. The other would have required lots of dynamic lighting "and with such a huge world simply didn't work".

But we do not have any information about 2014 build. But as @essenthy said many time the lighting system is almost same as 2014 build. Just downgraded. Not changed. Dynamic IBL system is still in game I think. because I remember in one interview near the game release one developer confirmed that the dynamic IBL is still in game. But can't find interview. Sorry.

 

[Mezziaz]

Yep, I am aware that they used a different lighting model before, but even after they adopted the new lighting model, the lighting did look much better (E3 2014).

They were actually still using Dynamic IBL during E3 2014, confirmed here

"The stuff we're using that's really cool for next-gen is dynamic IBL," he continues, referring to image-based lighting. "
John Mamais //CDPR

 

[amfibiya89]

They were actually still using Dynamic IBL during E3 2014, confirmed here

"The stuff we're using that's really cool for next-gen is dynamic IBL," he continues, referring to image-based lighting. "
John Mamais //CDPR

As I said the lighting which they changed was not IBL but Dynamic light. And the difference between 2013 VGX and 2014 build is before they used many dynamic lights and after that they changed it to IBL. This is two different thing which Dynamic light is more demanding than IBL system. IBL system still in game. It mimics GI but less demanding than GI. This is what ambient light is. We can see IBL (ambient light) in few post before when I posted ultra low texture images. IBL system still in game.

EDIT: I know that IBL meaning is " image based light". I said this is ambient light because this is another name of this system

 

[Mezziaz]

As I said the lighting which they changed was not IBL but Dynamic light.

"Dynamic Light" is a pretty broad term. Are you talking about voxel based global illumination perhaps?

 

[amfibiya89]

delete

---------- Updated at 01:11 PM ----------

"Dynamic Light" is a pretty broad term. Are you talking about voxel based global illumination perhaps?

The other would have required lots of dynamic lighting "and with such a huge world simply didn't work

Adam Badowski didn't explained what exactly kind of dynamic light he talked about. It can be real GI or not. I do not know (Even we know from old interviews that game used GI in very early builds.). But we at least know that they only changed lighting system only after 2013. And as Adam Badowski mentioned second method was working well in day and night times. And this is indication of IBL because this is mostly part of PBR lighting and in PBR lighting we do not have to change values of materials for every specific light conditions as in old standard lighting systems. So it works well in day and night times together. So it means that they changed existing dynamic light which was more demanding than IBL which game use now and used in 2014.

 

[-The_Crasher-]

Comparison time

E3 2014 Demo

STLM 2.3

And teribleee horriblee VANILLAAAAA (Sorry for that dear CDProject but this is what the realty is at least for me)

As we can see there is very subtle difference between E3 and STLM 2.3. I really hope same will happen with outside of Novigrad (entrance of Novigrad) and @essenthy will find more useful options and will bring us that beauty with all glory.


And this is bonus for heart breaking. Lets break our hearts. YYAAAAAYYYYYY

The last image shows lighting older than the 35 minute demo.

It was more closely related to Velen's lighting (simmilar to 2.3's Velen lighting) and was likely captured at, or near e3 2014.

Compare the lighting from the ending of the e3 2014 demo, and the beginning parts of the 35 minute demo, and you'll see some noticeable changes in lighting.

 

[amfibiya89]

The last image shows lighting older than the 35 minute demo.

It was more closely related to Velen's lighting (simmilar to 2.3's Velen lighting) and was likely captured at, or near e3 2014.

Compare the lighting from the ending of the e3 2014 demo, and the beginning parts of the 35 minute demo, and you'll see some noticeable changes in lighting.

Emmm... I can't say anything about exactly from which build was that last shoot. I didn't put it here because of E3 build. As I said. This is "Bonus"

But it still can totally be the lighting of E3 2014 build, because we do not know how E3 Build's Novigrad lighting looked at this time of day, may be it was more like Velen's lighting. What I know that this SS was shown same time with this one. And this one's lighting is almost same as E3 build so I think it totally could be same lighting as E3.

 

[Ramon242]

Instead, what I think most likely happened is that the guy at the top said to them "change it, it is too edgy, make it look more mainstream", which of course, from the perspective of a host of gamers playing the game, was a huge misstep.
But the boss is the boss and if he wants it a certain way, guess what....he's going to get it!

Except lots of major-selling AAA games are overly "edgy", especially all the gritty military shooters (CoD/BF).

Witcher 3, in my opinion, suffers from a lot of inappropriate meddling in lighting, UI, and gameplay mechanics. All of which were at some point during the development of the game, spot on! One such example is Geralt's meditation which has been reduced to a mindless, blacked out screen with potions filling up all by themselves. Not what we wanted.
This is the work of someone at the top losing sight of the pure, uncompromising vision for the game and getting blinded by the "industry standard".

Or maybe CDPR is just not good at creating good core gameplay mechanics. The combat in TW1 and 2 were considered average at best and often described as being clunky. Aside from the butchered graphics, nothing about the previous builds looked "spot on". Take off those rose-tinted and rewatch the combat sections in the 35min demo. The stupid human AI was still present and you can clearly see the player playing in a dumbed down fashion to avoid exposing the fact that you can mash your way to victory without the use of signs, which they showcase often. They intentionally walk and dodge away when it's completely unnecessary.

So let's stop pointing fingers at artists, assuming they don't know what they are doing. It is the executives at CDPR that should be pointed at.

How about we stop pretending we know exactly went down during the game's development and not point fingers at anyone? The downgrading of a game's graphics from E3 to final build is incredibly common, yet for some reason people only give CDPR the title of "literally satan" for doing it.

The amount of stupid these STLM threads always attract is cancerous.

 

[essenthy]

Except lots of major-selling AAA games are overly "edgy", especially all the gritty military shooters (CoD/BF).



Or maybe CDPR is just not good at creating good core gameplay mechanics. The combat in TW1 and 2 were considered average at best and often described as being clunky. Aside from the butchered graphics, nothing about the previous builds looked "spot on". Take off those rose-tinted and rewatch the combat sections in the 35min demo. The stupid human AI was still present and you can clearly see the player playing in a dumbed down fashion to avoid exposing the fact that you can mash your way to victory without the use of signs, which they showcase often. They intentionally walk and dodge away when it's completely unnecessary.



How about we stop pretending we know exactly went down during the game's development and not point fingers at anyone? The downgrading of a game's graphics from E3 to final build is incredibly common, yet for some reason people only give CDPR the title of "literally satan" for doing it.

The amount of stupid these STLM threads always attract is cancerous.

while i do admit that the discussion can get ridiculous sometime about the whole downgrade debacle, calling it cancerous when peoples are trying to figure out the tech change in a modding thread isnt right either, if you are fine about how the game look then good for you, not every one feel the same

 

[ayyudee]

while i do admit that the discussion can get ridiculous sometime about the whole downgrade debacle, calling it cancerous when peoples are trying to figure out the tech change in a modding thread isnt right either, if you are fine about how the game look then good for you, not every one feel the same

Considering the previous lighting system used back in 2013 and maybe 2014 was more demanding and your knowledge of the specifics of the one they used in the launch build, do you have an estimate of the specs needed to run 1080p 60 fps in the old and more demanding system? Could there be such a big difference performance wise for cd to make use of this as the main logic to change it to one less demanding?

 

[Sam2305]

We'd love to hear at least some explanation from CDPR. hope they'll decide to speak about it someday.

That won't happen. It's didn't happen in the past, it won't in the future IMO. Although, I think the explanation is clear: consoles. Almost everything that is wrong with this game is because of it

---------- Updated at 10:40 PM ----------

while i do admit that the discussion can get ridiculous sometime about the whole downgrade debacle, calling it cancerous when peoples are trying to figure out the tech change in a modding thread isnt right either, if you are fine about how the game look then good for you, not every one feel the same

Agree

 

[essenthy]

Considering the previous lighting system used back in 2013 and maybe 2014 was more demanding and your knowledge of the specifics of the one they used in the launch build, do you have an estimate of the specs needed to run 1080p 60 fps in the old and more demanding system? Could there be such a big difference performance wise for cd to make use of this as the main logic to change it to one less demanding?

its a complicated question, ther's no way to tel, you can only speculate, tech engine is a very complicated matter, but we know that the 2014 build was running on PC, and the high end cards of that time were the original Titan and the 780ti, you compare those two to what we have now and you can a very rough estimate, for example an RX 480 ( wich isnt even high end ) is more powerful than the original Titan

was it a factor for the tech change? i dont think so, logic tels multi platform game are solely made and optimized for consoles first, then PC get a port, the port being decent or horrible depending on how much devs invest time and money on it, the important thing is that the PC version cannot be different than the original console version in term of art, lighting system ect ... consoles leads the development

it doesnt matter what PC can do or not, at the end its bounds to do what the consoles version does just slightly better, with higher lod and better AO and stuff like that

 

[Big_Machine]

it doesnt matter what PC can do or not, at the end its bounds to do what the consoles version does just slightly better, with higher lod and better AO and stuff like that

And that is a very crappy trend. Wouldn't it be easier to decrease the LOD and remove other bells and whistles from a tech-heavy game rather than going uphill by trying to implement some tech in order to make a pile of crap look like a candy?

 

[Sardukhar]

We get lights on this thread way too much.

Keep it polite.

Keep it on topic.

Keep it, if at all possible, friendly.

Or bans and lock.