The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

[Pedrolago]

Besids, a whole drowner brain should support more than one potions anyway.

That being said, one problem I do have with auto-refilling as it is currently known is that infinite potion refills does break immersion. How about this: making the players having to gather ingredients once in a long while? Does that seem to be a fine compromise?

There have been many suggestions given here in this thread and IMO every single one of them is better than the auto refill, and I agree with yours, we have seen from the discussion here that there are clearly two types of players, those who think gathering ingredients is a chore, and those who enjoy it, IMO CDPR should satisfy both groups, if they combined their current system with W1, I think most of us would be happy, applying the "teabag" concept to ingredients, not to actual potions like you said and like @BlackWolf500 specified a while back

 

[thislsmadness]

1. It still remains though - and CDPR said this themselves- that if the world in general has not enough content or atmosphere or immersion or systems and mechanic - the world will feel empty. And since alchemy and ingredients gathering is an important part of that for me personally I would like to see a compromise here, because for me auto-refilling makes the potions available all the time after I found the ingredients, with which I have several problems:

Hey, I like all the stuff about upgrading potions with special ingredients (at least if we are still able to make the "less powerful" ones afterwards), I love the toxicity (from what it sounds like, hopefully with negative effects), I love even the idea of long-time and support(short-time)potions, the way they are taken, the fact that potions you can take during combat are probably restricted to 2 max, etc. I love all of that. I don't like the auto-refilling.

As I've said before, I'm not trying to convince you that this is more immersive than that. Immersion is subjective thing, we all have our own limits and tolerances.

All I'm saying is that you should consider the whole of what the game has to offer instead of hyper focusing on one streamlined feature and accusing CDPR of ignoring you and catering to new or console gamers. For instance, one of my least favorite things about the Witcher series is that you play as Geralt. Character customization is very important to me in RPGs, it adds tremendously to my immersion... even in games where you can only change the character's name. Despite that, I still think the Witcher games are among the best the genre has seen because the rest of the package more than makes up for it. You've said you love everything else about the alchemy changes -- is having Geralt brew them automatically vs you clicking on a recipe a few times enough to drag it all down?

 

[schinderhannes.999]

You've said you love everything else about the alchemy changes -- is having Geralt brew them automatically vs you clicking on a recipe a few times enough to drag it all down?

Apologies for cutting in but @BlackWolf500 and others probably feel the same way about this:

For someone coming from the previous games where it was an absolute no-brainer to manage and do everything alchemy-related yourself auto-refilling probably wouldn't drag it all down but it certainly would stick out, like a tenacious little stain on an otherwise (potentially) impeccable gaming experience, worthy of calling itself a mature, immersive and crowning achievement of the RPG genre.

 

[Pajkes]

I'm not. I'm counting them as people who prefer more information before demanding that CDPR changes the game.
And I'm not counting the 200 people who expressed a preference for one or both of the existing games at all. It was a multiple choice poll.
150 people said no. You can't count anyone in the "No" group who didn't actually say "No".

I don't think that the poll says much at all, but what it implies is that a significant number of the members of this forum would prefer to find out more, and that the number who have made a snap decision against change without knowing the facts is actually pretty small.

So no, I don't expect CDPR to make changes based on that poll.

Wow this is such classic PR twisting of facts in order to serve some agenda,no offense.And plus I personally voted to prefer Witcher 1's potion system and I can guarantee you at least for myself and I'm pretty sure it's the same with everyone else who voted for Witcher 1's or 2's system (cause they are so much different than this new dumbed down,they are fundamentally antonyms) that I DEFINITELY meant a huge gigantic NO so yeahhh you can put me as well into For fuck's sake NO, NOOOOOO crowd.

 

[dragonbird]

Wow this is such classic PR twisting of facts in order to serve some agenda,no offense.

No, just arithmetic. And I didn't design the poll.

As of now, 415 have voted, of which 46 said yes and 122 said they needed to see it in action to be sure. That means the number who are vehemently opposed to it is something between 151 (the "No" votes) and 247 (total who voted - (yes + unsure)). Between 35% and 60%.

It would be helpful if we get more information, but personally, I'm definitely moving from the "unsure" group to the 'yes" group.

What's actually involved in the traditional potion system?

You need to get the recipe and find out what contains the needed ingredients. TW1 had a fairly complex way of doing that, talking to people, buying old peasant women drinks, buying books, experimenting and so on. TW2 simplified it slightly but was still similar. I've seen nothing on TW3 that would imply dumbing-down, so this needs more info.

You need to get the ingredients. In both TW1 and TW2, this was almost always just grinding, no special skill needed, just time. In TW3, if you only need to collect the ingredients once, there's the potential to make it more interesting. We don't know if they will or not, but the potential's there. So again, more info pls.

You need to make the potions. Didn't require anything more than clicking on a few buttons, so no, after thinking about it, I don't see this as any great loss.

You need to decide what potions to use against a particular enemy. This would have been the bestiary books in the earlier games, the vaguely defined "research" in TW3.
This is where the info we've received seems to imply a big improvement. Maybe you did the research on what worked best, maybe you didn't. But based on the threads we saw in the forums on how to fight specific monsters, the impression I got was that most people, if they used potions at all, had their favourite combos and automatically used that almost every time. TW1 and TW2 were forgiving - as long as you buffed up somehow, how you did it wasn't that important. From what we've seen, this isn't going to be as simple in TW3. The difference in difficulty between using the "right" potions (and bombs, and oils) and not using them is going to be much greater. So the game seems to be making you think more, not less.

So I'm seeing two part of alchemy where we need more info to confirm it isn't dumbed-down - getting recipes and identifying the ingredient sources.
One part where there's the potential for making it more difficult and interesting, but we need the confirmation - collecting the ingredients.
One part that's confirmed as effectively removed, but it wasn't difficult or requiring thought anyway - mixing the potions.
One part that's almost confirmed as requiring more thought, but it would be good to have it spelled out for us - which potions to use against specific monsters.

 

[GuyNwah]

I voted "I prefer the system of TW1" and "I need to see it in action to be sure".

What I liked about TW1's alchemy system was that you could, within its limits, exercise some real creativity and make some real discoveries. Kalkstein tells you as much in Act I, where he tells you the empirical approach is best, and the alchemy system in the game justified his statement. It's this ability to be creative and find new things that makes alchemy worthwhile.

Restricting alchemy in TW2 to predefined recipes and no variation was a big step backward. It turned a practical and challenging in-game puzzle to something closer to drudgery. FCR, by tying all the advanced recipes to a single skill point, made it even worse by reducing the importance of interacting with merchants.

If they're going to follow the TW2/FCR model, they might as well make the potion refills automatic, because the only thing it subtracts from that kind of potion-making system is drudgery. But whether or not they do auto-refills, what I really want is to restore the need to explore and interact, the ability to experiment, and the value of creativity that the potion-making system of TW1 had.

 

[Garrison72]

@Guy N'wah

+ 1 zillion RED points. The ability to experiment with recipes would be awesome. The potential issue I see with the new system is that meditating is the new rolling - it can be used as an exploit. They need to craft a combat system that gives players flexibility in the right areas, but still confines them to a set of rules. But please, no more exploits ie; Quen, Rolling, OP Aard from the first game, etc.

 

[Mgec]

I simply voted 'No' because I feel that it is contradictory to to whole purpose of sandbox, open world, where you are invited to explore (constantly) . By no having auto-refill, you have an extra layer of motivation besides looking for quest and monsters. Turns Geralt into a robot, or a dog who saves piss to distribute it to different trees and bushes. It's not a chore if you are interested in the world and lore. And I would have voted for the TW1 option but it felt that it did not answered the poll as I wanted.

 

[Pedrolago]

@Guy N'wah

You just made me sad , TW1 system was soooo good, like you said, experimenting with different variations of ingredients and getting different versions of the same potions was really satisfying and is already a great incentive for searching for different kinds of herbs and monster parts, its just tragic that they keep drifting away from it.

 

[kissybyc]

I think one key question was often ignored in our discussion here: why don't I use potions in TW2? This question is what sparked Konrad to change the alchemy system in the first place, but if potion rarity is not the cause of my disinterest in potions, then auto-refilling will not solve the problem for me.

Why didn't I use potions in TW2? For me, it was because the changes brought by potions were merely quantitative and not qualitative, and therefore could be replaced by a more intuitive effort: better clicking and swordsplay. Let me explain:

When I fought a group of drowners in the Forest of Flotsam, the most frequent cause of death for me was when several of them jump-attacked me (especially when from the back), and I was killed or fatally wounded instantly. Which potion was going to help with that? Certainly not Rook and Swallow. Again, when I fought enemies with shields, my greatest difficulty was to find a narrow angle to land an attack. Damage bonus from potions does not help if the shield is there. When I fought the dragon, her flaming damage is high, but I have Quen which cancels the burning debuff, why then do I worry about potions that cancels burning?

My point is, potions will be marginalized as long as they do not provide something beyond what can be achieved by faster clicking, better dodging and better sign casting. I am a stupid gamer unfamiliar with TW2 combat, so when I see the Game Over screen, my gut reaction is "damn, I need to play better next time." instead of "hmm, I wonder if I need to explore another game mechanic." And if all potions do is to enhance potion-less game mechanics, I would always think I can get away with potions by "playing better next time."

So I do have some little suggestions. What if we have a potion that heightens Geralt's reaction, so he enters a brief time dilation when enemies are about to strike a critical blow? I'd use that potion every time when fighting drowners. Or what if Rook, in addition to granting damage bonus, strengthens Geralt's muscle so he can shatter enemies' shields with few heavy blows? Or what if, as Geralt becomes intoxicated and looks scary, his intimidation is much more likely to success? Or what if the potion that grants sign intensity will now also unlock a powerful third stage of Geralt's signs? Or what about a potion that makes Geralt smell like a beast so wolves/nekkars would be quite confused in battle? etc. The spirit is that, just like swordsman and signs, potions should be able to do something that other mechanics cannot or can hardly do. Until this happens, merely granting infinite refills, I'm afriad, will not solve the problem of underused alchemy.

This is just my opinion. What do you guys think?

 

[dragonbird]

I used potions in TW1, but not bombs or any other "alchemy" products, even on the hardest difficulty. In TW2, I used potions, bombs and traps, but usually the same ones - maybe I changed the third potion occasionally, and there were two or three different kinds of trap and bomb I might pick from, but definitely not everything available. If I was playing an alchemy build, I used different potions, because of the reduced toxicity, but still picked my favourites and used them all of the time. You found out what worked for you, and stuck with it.

If it's possible for the majority of players to play that way, or to do as you said and not use potions much at all, then yes, there's room for improvement.

 

[thislsmadness]

@schinderhannes Thats a fair statement. My issue has only been some of the more hyperbolic arguments.
@kissybyc I agree, I hope that potion effects end up being something more than just stat increases. Which may be the case since we've heard that alchemy will play a role in exploiting enemy weaknesses.

 

[Rahx.482]

@kissybyc. Hammer on the nail.
Those were some great examples that would not only make sense for those that are deep fans of the books, but also as a game mechanic that gives the player a reason to use potions. I could drag on on what I think, but its pretty clear. Granted I'm still waiting to see what CDPR has in mind. But what kissybyc said sounds much beter for the game rather than "It's there for you to use, to experiment". Because, since its a game, there's very little left to experiment if you know that there are only healing potions and potions that make you hit harder. I hope they introduce something like that, even if this means a delay for another 3 months or so........

 

[HarelMor]

I see what you mean Guy N'wah. i chose the witcher 2 system at my vote because I hated the alcohol system and forgot the fact that we can experiment and create diffrent version of the same potion. In my opinion if an experimental system will be added to the witcher 3 it should be a lot more interesting then added stats boost.
what if sign related potion will be able to give extra boosts like... for quen an added weight to the enemy's weapon causing slower atack speed or reduced precision for a brief moment. For aard an added confusion effect somewhat like alcohol intoxication the enemy will stagger for a briff moment. For igni the ability to ignite the environment creating a physical barrier for a short duration of time. for yrden a reduced movement speed for a brief time after the enemy is released. There can be specific potion for every added bonus in this way we will be able to think our strategy before engaging in combat.

 

[Pajkes]

One part that's almost confirmed as requiring more thought, but it would be good to have it spelled out for us - which potions to use against specific monsters.

Come one what thought?No really,what thought?

You collect herbs ONCE.I repeat ONCE.And after geting recipes for potions you can make INFINITE amounts of them.Skyrim requires herbs collection.SKYRIM!King.....EMPEROR of casual rpgs.Come on.....what thought if after meditating you have all potions and those which are so called 'right' are rigth there told to you.That's such hand holding (except if you need to read books or do research first)...I mean who is target audince,kindergarden kids?In COD multiplayer weapons which are best suited for certain maps are not just written down and told to player.COD!!

In my honest opinion and I repeat IMO mate there is tremendous amount of dumbing down when it comes to alchemy.It's not only complete nonsense from logical stand of view (and yes logic EXISTS in fantasy world inside it's context) but it literally makes bombs and potions little more than cheats.Cause cheat in gaming is getting upper hand and becoming more powerfull or getting buffs with zero work or thinking involved and after initial recipe obtaining and first bunch of herbs collecting it becomes CHEAT.Imagine if ammo or bombs would refill in GTA every time you visit safe house or cars repairing itself every time you stop and wait for few seconds.That would be cheats.

In my opinon this is very lazy approach to problem which will trigger inflation of potions because there will be disproportion between amount of work needed to make potions and potions made and as consequence it will lead to DEVALUATION of potions worth.

And you know what,I'm fine with it.Yup,I'm fine.AS LONG AS WE HAVE OPTIONAL MODE WITH OLD SCHOOL ALCHEMY FROM WITCHER 1 OR SOMETHING SIMILAR TO IT.Why you ask?Cause it's fun.Not to you,not to Konrad,not to investors,not to Skyrim kiddies but it is fun because it's challenging,rewarding and immersive to significant amount of people and for hundredth,no for GAZZILIONTH time I'm asking you and those who defend this system to tell me why win-win situation is bad and all of us or at least huge majority being satisfied is bad thing?Why?

 

[HarelMor]

In my opinion the new system should be optional, if we need to search for ingredients for the first potion and we wish to search for ingredients for the rest let us do it.
Give us an alchemy system that is more interesting and more rewarding.
One of the reasons that people didn't constantly used potions in the witcher 2 was because we could only use it while meditating, we had to know what is ahad of us if we don't know that we can only have that knowledge after a reload which means a lot of quick savings or reg savings, in the witcher 1 i used a lot more potions then the witcher 2 (even though i hate the alcohols system that cluttered my inventory). a combination of both systems can be incredibly good for me a system that let me experiment without the need of the alcohol clutter. the infinite potion system is one click away in the system menu.

Edit: on the other hand we can use the alcohols system with strong medium or weak vodka. this alcohol can be used as a disinfection that help heal wounds.

 

[Pajkes]

@kissybyc

Dude,mate,pal,buddy,fellow witcher.....you are so spot on.THIS..THIS..THIS.I honestly literally couldn't agree more with you.

 

[dragonbird]

I see what you mean Guy N'wah. i chose the witcher 2 system at my vote because I hated the alcohol system and forgot the fact that we can experiment and create diffrent version of the same potion. In my opinion if an experimental system will be added to the witcher 3 it should be a lot more interesting then added stats boost.
what if sign related potion will be able to give extra boosts like... for quen an added weight to the enemy's weapon causing slower atack speed or reduced precision for a brief moment. For aard an added confusion effect somewhat like alcohol intoxication the enemy will stagger for a briff moment. For igni the ability to ignite the environment creating a physical barrier for a short duration of time. for yrden a reduced movement speed for a brief time after the enemy is released. There can be specific potion for every added bonus in this way we will be able to think our strategy before engaging in combat.

This is the kind of thing I'd also like to see, the use of potions in a way that makes you think about what would be useful in a specific combat, instead of just automatically picking Swallow every time. And I love the idea of custom potions.

Come one what thought?No really,what thought?

You collect herbs ONCE.I repeat ONCE.And after geting recipes for potions you can make INFINITE amounts of them.Skyrim requires herbs collection.SKYRIM!King.....EMPEROR of casual rpgs.Come on.....what thought if after meditating you have all potions and those which are so called 'right' are rigth there told to you.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I was talking about having it spelled out to us NOW, so that we have a clearer understanding of what the changes are.

 

[sidspyker]

Pretty much, Alchemy in TW2 for me personally was either making specific potions that were needed for progression... or Swallow, Bombs. That's it really, maybe a few others just to see how they worked but Swallow was the go to potion every time. A few more potions when playing as an Alchemy witcher perhaps but otherwise it was really not that useful.

 

[ONLY_ONCE]

I never played TW1, it seems the hardcore pc players want this. I sure hope it does not suck.
I'll say it again, I still trust Konrad's dream idea because I can't give real honest feed back until I play it myself first-hand.
It's got to be better than TW2 at least.